The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Pretty sure there's already training programs in place, like from guilds and stuff.

We need to create an adventurer guild for the Companions of Varen :V. Then as the "King" of the planet we could send them on random fetch quests.

On a more serious note, it may be worth it to give them better gear like advanced power armour and weapons if they don't have some yet, since they're helping discover the most dangerous part of the planet. Imagine how many soldier we would lose trying to do it ourselves.
 
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The thing I do not get about raiding is why would we care about the ships if all we are after is to destroy the infrastructure. We outnumber them and have a tech advantage. Most likely also a skill advantage. If they have mobility it does not matter if we have a huge force that can take what they through at it. Just go in burn a world from orbit and leave. Rinse and repeat as nessary.
 
We need to create an adventurer guild for the Companions of Varen :V. Then as the "King" of the planet we could send them on random fetch quests.

On a more serious note, it may be worth it to give them better gear like advanced power armour and weapons if they don't have some yet, since they're helping discover the most dangerous part of the planet. Imagine how many soldier we would lose trying to do it ourselves.
They already have it, they have been very well paid for some of their discoveries and finds and put all of their pay into equipment
 
They already have it, they have been very well paid for some of their discoveries and finds and put all of their pay into equipment
Make sense, wasn't too sure if they would be permitted to have top tier gear but it's good to know that they don't get shafted because they're not technically full military.
 
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The thing I do not get about raiding is why would we care about the ships if all we are after is to destroy the infrastructure. We outnumber them and have a tech advantage. Most likely also a skill advantage. If they have mobility it does not matter if we have a huge force that can take what they through at it. Just go in burn a world from orbit and leave. Rinse and repeat as nessary.
Because burning a world from orbit takes time, and exterminatus is hard to do when you keep getting shot at. And we don't want to be using that too frequently.

If they can just keep warping in fleets, they can ware down our forces who are out of position and stranded far away from our supply lines.

Make sense, wasn't too sure if they would be permitted to have top tier gear but it's good to know that they don't shafted because they're not technically full military.
If you know people and do good work you can get a lot of fancy gear.
 
Because burning a world from orbit takes time, and exterminatus is hard to do when you keep getting shot at. And we don't want to be using that too frequently.

If they can just keep warping in fleets, they can ware down our forces who are out of position and stranded far away from our supply lines.


If you know people and do good work you can get a lot of fancy gear.
See that is the thing the Trust ships are faster in system, have better everything and the range of ships is literally twice what they have. Just spend a day in orbit of a planet and bombard everything that is not shielded. Attack targets of opportunities. Use dawm Sun Tzu teachings and attack where the enemy is weak. They don't have the ability to detect incoming ships so it will take them time to gather a large enough force to force the Trust to leave. Also if they send everything they have that works for us to since they leave themselves open in other places. Fighting in the warp while possible is near impossible.
 
See that is the thing the Trust ships are faster in system, have better everything and the range of ships is literally twice what they have. Just spend a day in orbit of a planet and bombard everything that is not shielded. Attack targets of opportunities. Use dawm Sun Tzu teachings and attack where the enemy is weak. They don't have the ability to detect incoming ships so it will take them time to gather a large enough force to force the Trust to leave. Also if they send everything they have that works for us to since they leave themselves open in other places. Fighting in the warp while possible is near impossible.
They do have the ability to see ships in coming, they've got sorcerers who can also get contact to other sorcerers very quickly so they can communicate and coordinate very quickly assuming a decent warlord.

And yes bombard everything that isn't shielded...so bugger all useful then.

Like seriously, anything important and would do anything more than grandstanding would have heavy shields that can't just be bombarded down that quickly. I mean we can sure scorch a lot of industrial wasteland...

2. A few, mostly individuals rather then speicies
@Durin
1. Anything particularly interesting/exciting of those that they met?
 
They do have the ability to see ships in coming, they've got sorcerers who can also get contact to other sorcerers very quickly so they can communicate and coordinate very quickly assuming a decent warlord.

And yes bombard everything that isn't shielded...so bugger all useful then.

Like seriously, anything important and would do anything more than grandstanding would have heavy shields that can't just be bombarded down that quickly. I mean we can sure scorch a lot of industrial wasteland...


@Durin
1. Anything particularly interesting/exciting of those that they met?
So they are shielding the mines, fields they grow food, roads, tracks... etc. most societies are not going to have the centralize that the Trust has. Destroying those things would hurt them and cost them to repair.
 
So they are shielding the mines, fields they grow food, roads, tracks... etc. most societies are not going to have the centralize that the Trust has. Destroying those things would hurt them and cost them to repair.
What mines that are vulnerable are going to be underground and are thus naturally shielded, the fields are in agri worlds and would only benefit the chaff so that's just more sacrifices for the ruling elite who can keep those who need to be kept alive with hydroponics and most of the industry is going to be in the hives the massive, very well fortified albeit anarchic hives, that have very tough void shields, can shoot back and are small enough targets that we can't fit enough ships around them.

We'd certainly batter their shields down, but even a disproportionate raiding fleet would take too long to do so and could then be trapped between planet and a reprisal fleet.

If chased out of system Chaos's warp superiority means that if they can predict where we'll emerge they can be there first and that's assuming they don't just have a ritual in their ships to try and block our fleet's escape.
 
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What mines that are vulnerable are going to be underground and are thus naturally shielded, the fields are in agri worlds and would only benefit the chaff so that's just more sacrifices for the ruling elite who can keep those who need to be kept alive with hydroponics and most of the industry is going to be in the hives the massive, very well fortified albeit anarchic hives, that have very tough void shields, can shoot back and are small enough targets that we can't fit enough ships around them.

We'd certainly batter their shields down, but even a disproportionate raiding fleet would take too long to do so and could then be trapped between planet and a reprisal fleet.

If chased out of system Chaos's warp superiority means that if they can predict where we'll emerge they can be there first and that's assuming they don't just have a ritual in their ships to try and block our fleet's escape.
I don't think you understand how mining works. Old mines use to dig holes till they find them but mines for the past century open pit mines are used. Digging deep into the earth only works if you have the technology and willing to do the high cost. Hence why coal is a dying industry. Also natural gas burns cheaper. Most likely since chaos is not the bastion of high tech machinery they have open pit mines which can be bombarded from orbit.

Burning the agriworlds would have a huge impact on everything. The elite can still be killed by thousands of minions starving and desperate. Industry cannot function if they do not have workers. Armies march on thier stomachs is true. Imagine what would happen to the polity if they cannot feed thier people.

You need high level divination in order to predict where ships will exit the warp. Ridicully is the best diviner alive we can have him help determine and plan out any raid.

These hiding behind our defenses because it gives the enemy the ability to determine the tempo of the war. We need to raid or lead them into a ambush. Something we can easily do with our high intrigue admiral, best diviner, and Rotbart.
 
I don't think you understand how mining works. Old mines use to dig holes till they find them but mines for the past century open pit mines are used. Digging deep into the earth only works if you have the technology and willing to do the high cost. Hence why coal is a dying industry. Also natural gas burns cheaper. Most likely since chaos is not the bastion of high tech machinery they have open pit mines which can be bombarded from orbit.

Burning the agriworlds would have a huge impact on everything. The elite can still be killed by thousands of minions starving and desperate. Industry cannot function if they do not have workers. Armies march on thier stomachs is true. Imagine what would happen to the polity if they cannot feed thier people.

You need high level divination in order to predict where ships will exit the warp. Ridicully is the best diviner alive we can have him help determine and plan out any raid.

These hiding behind our defenses because it gives the enemy the ability to determine the tempo of the war. We need to raid or lead them into a ambush. Something we can easily do with our high intrigue admiral, best diviner, and Rotbart.

Chaos is not high tech like we are, but they're not low tech either, they've almost certainly got all of the Imperium's tech which was more than capable of doing deep mining the type of which we'd love to do. Combine that with a willingness to just use and abuse slave labour which while inefficient means they can ignore a lot of costs means they can do deep type mining. Not as well as we can of course, but well enough.

For a chaos polity an excellent opportunity to get some souls, instil some terror and cull the population, in a "the killings will continue until moral improves" way.

This is chaos, they don't care that their population is rioting over food, they just need to keep their army fed with hydroponics, the rest can starve for all they care, they have both the food and the military equipment the former of which ensures that they will always have recruits.

And I can imagine what would happen to a polity that can't feed its people in 40K and for the most part its "if you don't stop we will do things that would make Vlad the Impaler chuck up his lunch here's a demonstration bring me my giant pogo stick."

You need that to determine where exactly they'll exit the warp in a specific system, you need common sense to predict what system they'll jump too, maybe a little bit of sorcerer help if you want to be sure.

Yes we do have Ridcully and his response seems to have been "waste of time mate"
5. Will there be options to start engaging in privateering/raiding on the two chaos domains in the area? Just to irritate them/slow their growth?
5. not really, the issue you have with that is that compared to their ships yours are snails int he warp, when the enemy can move though he warp ten times you speed raiding does not work

You are right, letting them direct this is irritating and gives them an advantage, personally I'd love to just sneak an exterminatus torpedo onto the surface of one of their worlds and blow it to kingdom come, but we probably can't.

But, at the moment it looks like the best we can do is crush their raids as dismissively as possible and then deal with Tuzgozak's domain ASAP with the Dragons. Once they're gone then we can turn our attentions to doing something more substantial to them.
 
It's not ridiculous, as people pointed out it's just common sense IC for the Trust to not want to have such an obvious problem of putting all your eggs in one basket. That basket being Avernus and having all the elites under one single planet.



...You really aren't thinking about this from an IC perspective aren't you? In canon Horus proved how much of a collosal problem it would be to have too much power in the hands of a handful of people which lead to things like the the Space Marine legions being split into chapters to avoid another incident of the caliber of having your best soldiers fall to chaos. IC the Trust have very good reason to follow said reasoning and IC your OOC reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Hell I've seen a W40k quest where players reasoned against having unlimited Space marine legions even when dealin with a massive threat because they were considering the possible long term ramification of another Horus Heresy problem with entire Legions being corrupted as too much of a threat.
It's not putting all the eggs in one basket. It's just putting all the elites there. Asgard would still be producing all the Knights, no one seems to care about that. Vanaheim would still be producing the overwhelming majority of naval forces, and no one cares about that. Midgard produces the overwhelming majority of the guard as well. It's not arguing for the entire military to be drawn from one planet, just the elites.

The Trust simply isn't in the position the Imperium was where it could afford to be hideously inefficient and survive due to sheer size. The Trust is small enough that it has to be efficient to survive. The threat of a core planet's governor betraying simply isn't anywhere near as high as the external threats to us.

Though I'd also argue that the sheer inefficiencies that were introduced as an attempt to prevent another Horus event actually did more damage to the Imperium than having such an event every thousand years.

Alternatively, this is not enough data to really establish a pattern of "more Alphas" and the dice just happened to hit creating Alphas more often. We probably are getting more Alphas as time goes on in the same way we are getting more of all types, but there's a randomness factor in play that makes determining how much the probability of an Alpha coming in a given year is increasing. Either way, they're still not common, so it's not a surprise we didn't see any this turn.
You drew the conclusion that Betas were increasing when the latest 10 turns had 116 Betas and the 10 turns before that had 89 Betas. This is an increase of 30.3% and you found that significant. Yet an increase of 133% in Alphas you find insignificant?

It makes a great deal of strategic sense for production centers of important resources to be well defended.

Also, Svartalfheim spends quite a bit arming large portions of their military with Power Armor, and presumably other equipment that is better than the norm. While the sheet is out of date, their upkeep suggests they spend more AM and EM on their army than they do their cities.
As you pointed out in the past, Svartalfheim is only the third highest producer of high tech resources.

And of course their upkeep on their army is higher than their cities. Their army has to move. Upkeep on mobile assets is higher than on stationary assets in pretty much every system.

They are useful now aren't they?
Another batch of armies would be useful now as well, and also useful on every other war we have.

Nope, relic armour.

Thanks to their artisans it doesn't cost much more for them.
If their artisans made relic armor for us, then it would cost the same thing.

the fields are in agri worlds and would only benefit the chaff so that's just more sacrifices for the ruling elite who can keep those who need to be kept alive with hydroponics
There's a reason they don't just sacrifice all their people right now. Most sacrifices are for immediate effect rituals that aren't as useful years in advance of any attack. By starving them now they don't have those billions to fuel rituals when they actually want to attack you later. Plus their industry declines from lack of population which means less stuff to throw at you later.
 
It's not putting all the eggs in one basket. It's just putting all the elites there. Asgard would still be producing all the Knights, no one seems to care about that. Vanaheim would still be producing the overwhelming majority of naval forces, and no one cares about that. Midgard produces the overwhelming majority of the guard as well. It's not arguing for the entire military to be drawn from one planet, just the elites.

The Trust simply isn't in the position the Imperium was where it could afford to be hideously inefficient and survive due to sheer size. The Trust is small enough that it has to be efficient to survive. The threat of a core planet's governor betraying simply isn't anywhere near as high as the external threats to us.

Though I'd also argue that the sheer inefficiencies that were introduced as an attempt to prevent another Horus event actually did more damage to the Imperium than having such an event every thousand years.
Well...isn't it.

All the elite eggs in one basket that is.

I mean personally I'm not happy about the fact that Vanaheim produces most of our ships because as was demonstrated with the recent decision on where to send the Waargh we really have to shape everything around the fact that most of our ships are made there. As for Midgard, that's a result of happenstance more than anything else. Midgard is just the Hive world, with luck it won't be alone soon.

Ensuring all elites are made on Avernus does make sense from a purely efficiency based perspective that you're going for, but as has already been stated it'll never fly with the other members of the Trust and I'm doubtful your plan would have major impact on two fronts.

1. Even if we're constantly conscripting anyone who makes it into the PDF we'll never match the numbers of the Chosen or Svartalfguard, even before the fact that we can't conscript everyone comes into account and the higher up you go there are fewer and fewer candidates for Helguard ect.

2. A dependency problem. All it takes is something cutting us off for us to collapse and the Trust to be badly weakened (already a problem, but lets not exacerbate it).



And yeah a lot of the inefficiencies were introduced to prevent...well first Horus, then to prevent the necessity of a second beheading and then to stop a Goge Vandir from appearing again. In fairness the paranoia was with good reason and it stopped the mostly awful governors from ****ing shit up and meant when the Lords did do something things were done.

This paranoia hasn't stopped. Technically it'd be much more efficient to give the Inquisition control of our spy nets and internal security (they are much better at it than the majority of the worlds), but we don't do that either because it'd give them too much power. Similar logic here as to most worlds even trust ones, an Avernite army can only really be countered by other mass elites...or too many dead guys to count.

If their artisans made relic armor for us, then it would cost the same thing.
Nah fair amount more, due to transport and our inability to maintain it.

Not because we wouldn't have enough resources under your proposal, but because we just wouldn't have enough artisans, who we cannot move from Svartalfheim to Avernus (well unless we want a lot of dead artisans.)

There's a reason they don't just sacrifice all their people right now. Most sacrifices are for immediate effect rituals that aren't as useful years in advance of any attack. By starving them now they don't have those billions to fuel rituals when they actually want to attack you later. Plus their industry declines from lack of population which means less stuff to throw at you later.
Rituals yes, compacts and contracts with Daemons though. Those can be arranged far in advance and take a lot of souls as well and if you have a glut of souls from an angry populace this is the perfect time to be making deals that ordinarily you'd take more time on.

Unless of course they do what they always do, which is raid other less fortified targets. It'll be harder to do that later on as the weak polities get smashed, but I'm pretty sure the Tzeenchian domain at least can just ride in with their super weapon make a list of demands collect and leave.

Suddenly tada they've got a new population and all the military equipment they could need for a while.

Yet an increase of 133% in Alphas you find insignificant?
Given the number of nat 100s needed to create an alpha it can to an extent.

But, to solve this

@Durin
1. Does Rotbart and his advisers think that any proposition to redirect planatary resources currently used for the creation, maintenance and use of elite units from other worlds (like the Svartalfguard, the Jotun, Chosen and Fire Giants) to Avernus to facilitate the creation of additional Avernite elites (who are under all objective measurements we can find superior) be acceptable either politically or practically.
 
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It's not putting all the eggs in one basket. It's just putting all the elites there. Asgard would still be producing all the Knights, no one seems to care about that. Vanaheim would still be producing the overwhelming majority of naval forces, and no one cares about that. Midgard produces the overwhelming majority of the guard as well. It's not arguing for the entire military to be drawn from one planet, just the elites.

The Trust simply isn't in the position the Imperium was where it could afford to be hideously inefficient and survive due to sheer size. The Trust is small enough that it has to be efficient to survive. The threat of a core planet's governor betraying simply isn't anywhere near as high as the external threats to us.

Though I'd also argue that the sheer inefficiencies that were introduced as an attempt to prevent another Horus event actually did more damage to the Imperium than having such an event every thousand years.

1) The Knight issue is one that is largely political like with the Mechanicus issue if IIRC.

2) It was mentioned that it is actually really expensive and time consuming to heavily focus on Naval production which is why not everyone is doing that. Even then Avernus is another planet that has it's own ship yard and IIRC Midgard is building up it's own as well now.

3) Midgard is a hive world meaning it has a far higher population than literally all the other planets combined so of course they have the most soldiers out of everyone.

4) Having too much power in the hands of a few people also lead to the Imperium being such a shit show since the Imperium got so big it couldn't run everything without serious issues. Which is why I doubt anyone is going to be thrilled with the idea of trying to unite all of humanity under one Empire again after how badly it went last time.

5) Max efficiency isn't always a good idea since as an example it would be far more efficient to create AI's or even Man of Stone for our tech but there are obvious issues with that.

Well...isn't it.

All the elite eggs in one basket that is.

I mean personally I'm not happy about the fact that Vanaheim produces most of our ships because as was demonstrated with the recent decision on where to send the Waargh we really have to shape everything around the fact that most of our ships are made there. As for Midgard, that's a result of happenstance more than anything else. Midgard is just the Hive world, with luck it won't be alone soon.

Ensuring all elites are made on Avernus does make sense from a purely efficiency based perspective that you're going for, but as has already been stated it'll never fly with the other members of the Trust and I'm doubtful your plan would have major impact on two fronts.

1. Even if we're constantly conscripting anyone who makes it into the PDF we'll never match the numbers of the Chosen or Svartalfguard, even before the fact that we can't conscript everyone comes into account and the higher up you go there are fewer and fewer candidates for Helguard ect.

2. A dependency problem. All it takes is something cutting us off for us to collapse and the Trust to be badly weakened (already a problem, but lets not exacerbate it).



And yeah a lot of the inefficiencies were introduced to prevent...well first Horus, then to prevent the necessity of a second beheading and then to stop a Goge Vandir from appearing again. In fairness the paranoia was with good reason and it stopped the mostly awful governors from ****ing shit up and meant when the Lords did do something things were done.

This paranoia hasn't stopped. Technically it'd be much more efficient to give the Inquisition control of our spy nets and internal security (they are much better at it than the majority of the worlds), but we don't do that either because it'd give them too much power. Similar logic here as to most worlds even trust ones, an Avernite army can only really be countered by other mass elites...or too many dead guys to count.

An important thing to note is that Rotbart is perhaps one of the greatest human generals alive who has control of some of the deadliest warriors in the galaxy with a literal army of hihgly trained psykers and even several Paragons under him. Him falling is likely considered one of the absolute worst case scenerios. Hence why I imagine that everyone else in the Trust would be against the idea of giving him access to everyones best soldiers under him since they would actually want said elites incase Rotbart fell to chaos which is a serious issue with his people being near fanatically loyal to him leaving them to fall with him.

Again as mentioned with the Horus Heresy and Goge Vandire as really good examples for why you should avoid that kinf of thing the Trust would be even more against the idea.
 
You drew the conclusion that Betas were increasing when the latest 10 turns had 116 Betas and the 10 turns before that had 89 Betas. This is an increase of 30.3% and you found that significant. Yet an increase of 133% in Alphas you find insignificant?

No. With Betas we've had a significantly longer period to see the trends off of (the entire quest), with Betas formerly being as rare as Alphas are now. What I am saying is that we can't say how much of the 133% increase in Alphas is due to random dice rolls, versus how much is due to the natural increase in the number and overall power of the psyker population. There's certainly an increase in the amount of Alphas for sure, just like there's an increase in all the other types, but we need more data to know what the actual trend is, as thus far we only have a really small sample.

And again, I am not really surprised that we didn't get any Alphas this turn, because they're still at the point of being exceedingly rare.

As you pointed out in the past, Svartalfheim is only the third highest producer of high tech resources.

And of course their upkeep on their army is higher than their cities. Their army has to move. Upkeep on mobile assets is higher than on stationary assets in pretty much every system.

Yes, and at Turn 99, in spite of being the third highest producer of AM, their AM expenditures on their military is rather high relative to their population. For instance, they spend a bit more AM on their army than Vanaheim does, with Vanaheim having over three times their population. Also, at T99 they were spending more AM on their army than anyone else, including Avernus, with many worlds not spending EM on their armies at all. Based on that data Svartaflheim's armies are among the best equipped in the Imperial Trust. The notion that they aren't really contributing anything to the Trust as a whole by spending on their city defenses just doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned.

It should also be remembered that they don't do as much in terms of orbital defenses as many worlds do, since they're ground focused and their cities are largely impervious to orbital bombardment due to being underground. So it makes sense that they'd invest heavily in fortifying their cities. (and thematically they're dwarves, so them living underground in fortified cities full of high end craftsmen is kind of their thing)
 
I still wish we could one day catch up to Midgard population using the Bombardment Cacti aphrodisiac pollen somehow, considering how many people dies every year and how many wars we get in.

I think I remember about it being too difficult to artificially recreate but that was a very long time ago so maybe we could start studying it again? Or at least find something else to help boost our population growth because those early 10% growth turns were amazing.

Having Bombardment Cactus farms would be pretty funny too :lol.
 
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This is just the nostalgia in me talking, but I'm kinda sad now that we destroyed the MoI template.

For context I've just recompleted
Priority Rannoch and as the MoI in Embers are based in design on the Geth I feel kinda sad that we can't do a reconciliation like with the Quarians and the Geth.
Don't get me wrong I understand why we did it and their design in 40K makes them much more vulnerable to Chaos due to cascade corruption, but I am saddened we won't be able to create our own Legion, or kick ork teeth in with an army of Iron Men. Still I can't wait to get our own EDI's :).
 
The more I read books from the Horus Heresy series the more I think the Men of Iron were corrupted by the void dragon. It's the little things like the giants dragon shaped ships, or the fact that they were going down the necron tech tree.
 
The more I read books from the Horus Heresy series the more I think the Men of Iron were corrupted by the void dragon. It's the little things like the giants dragon shaped ships, or the fact that they were going down the necron tech tree.
Very likely, though the embers ones would be vulnerable to chaos.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, but it would be nice to know what got them so we can insulate our Men of Stone to them...
 
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