The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

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If that was true, how is it possible to explain that a Galaxy spanning empire has not had any significant technological progress in the 11,000 years covered by Games Workshop?

Because change and the hope of progress is quite literally evil* and all too easily ends up with 'Tentacles, tentacles everywhere!'. On top of that Chaos takes special efforts to smash or corrupt the shit out attempts to do this.

Despite this, there has been technological improvements, but they are done very slowly and carefully with decades of review and testing to make sure they're not trojan horses, and everyone imvolved 100% believes that they aren't progressing anything, but regressing closer towards a mythical golden age. This is how the Adeptus Mechanicus manages in a universe as screwed up as 40K, by believing that what they're doing isn't actually change.

* when the four great metaphysical evils are the urge to harm, giving into despair, the desire for pleasure, and the desire to change things, that tells you something. One of these is not like the other to a modernist, but is to an anti-modernist.

Also, in the fluff text I've read, the Imperium has done what I advocated Avernus to do a couple times, at least in isolated cases. There are also explicit statements in the text that it doesn't do those things many, many more times, so some war machines have anomalously advanced components that if they were studied and applied across the board, great improvements could be made to many things.

Generally, the hypertech components are incredibly hard to make and might as well be magic as far as the Adeptus Mechanicus is concerned, seeing as they're usually designed by post-human intelligences or are literally made by STCs.

Well, all technology in the Imperium is based on STC printouts, and the Imperium has invented or reinvented a couple things since M30. Due to that, I thought that indicated that the Imperium could make printouts.

It isn't. Most but not all technology is derived from STC produced equipment, but much of it is black box copies of black box of monkey copies of something an STC made ten thousand years ago that the Imperium has no STC or STC printout for.

An STC print out is a very specific thing. It's not the name for a design pattern. An STC print out is a very big deal, as it's the manufacturing instructions created by a hypettech AI specifically tailored for how an idiot can make one specific instance of a category of object given a certain set of material inputs.
 
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Despite this, there has been technological improvements, but they are done very slowly and carefully with decades of review and testing to make sure they're not trojan horses, and everyone imvolved 100% believes that they aren't progressing anything, but regressing closer towards a mythical golden age. This is how the Adeptus Mechanicus manages in a universe as screwed up as 40K, by believing that what they're doing isn't actually change.

And if that sort of slow decades-long change was the norm, over 11,000 years, it would add up to a heck of alot of advancement. Since we don't see that, it is logical to presume that such advancement is very, very much the exception.

(Just to compare, taking decades to change is faster technological advancement than humans managed any time before the Iron Age.)

Generally, the hypertech components are incredibly hard to make and might as well be magic as far as the Adeptus Mechanicus is concerned, seeing as they're usually designed by post-human intelligences or are literally made by STCs.

I am fairly sure that there are examples in fluff text of components that are better and really simple. Like, diesel engine level of complexity. I don't have any references though, nor do I think it is really that important to know who is right - for this quest, all that matters is the word of durin.

It isn't. Most but not all technology is derived from STC produced equipment, but much of it is black box copies of black box of monkey copies of something an STC made ten thousand years ago that the Imperium has no STC or STC printout for.

An STC print out is a very specific thing. It's not the name for a design pattern. An STC print out is a very big deal, as it's the manufacturing instructions created by a hypettech AI specifically tailored for how an idiot can make one specific instance of a category of object given a certain set of material inputs.

So why are we reverse engineering things from scrap found in ruins to STCs in this quest? Is the Imperium in 43k more advanced in this regard? Or is this a simplification of terminology to save on aggravation and not a reflection of the cannon game universe?

fasquardon
 
So why are we reverse engineering things from scrap found in ruins to STCs in this quest? Is the Imperium in 43k more advanced in this regard? Or is this a simplification of terminology to save on aggravation and not a reflection of the cannon game universe?

It's a simplification. Going back to the Vanquisher Canon example, the STC printout was destroyed (because some idiot didn't make a copy) but in time a few Forge Worlds managed to partially reverse engineer the design from working examples. That design could be copied just like a copy of any regular STC, and then given to other Forge Worlds.
 
And if that sort of slow decades-long change was the norm, over 11,000 years, it would add up to a heck of alot of advancement. Since we don't see that, it is logical to presume that such advancement is very, very much the exception.

(Just to compare, taking decades to change is faster technological advancement than humans managed any time before the Iron Age.)

This has happened. It's one of the reasons that tech levels are so variable in the Imperium, with some battle fleets being massively automated with crews of trans-human cyborgs networked together into a greater whole controlling weapons based on producing gravitational shears inside the target and others use illiterate slaves to manually load shells the size of locomotives into giant cannons. Technology inproves. Technology regresses. It's always lesser than the glories of the past, as the post-human intelligences that designed the technology of the past are gone, and are too dangerous to be allowed to exist again given the state of the Immaterium. That's why it always makes sense to try to recover said glories, and why it also makes sense to have a very careful and conservative approach to them and to all technology, as they can be traps.

The Imperium is a vast and very diverse place. It has collapsed and then been reunified four times by my count. Some worlds go centuries without seeing a representative of the Imperium.

So why are we reverse engineering things from scrap found in ruins to STCs in this quest? Is the Imperium in 43k more advanced in this regard? Or is this a simplification of terminology to save on aggravation and not a reflection of the cannon game universe?

We're doing two things, finding and filling in the blanks on STCs (presumably printouts not actually STCs), and reversing engineering new patterns from recovered human archaeotech, which are both very respectable things for Explorators to do.

I assume that durin's just being conservative on terminology.

If we were actually finding STCs, I'd expect half of Mars' fleet in orbit and them to have bought the world from the Adeptus Terra, as we'd basically have found the Holy Grail.
 
You are finding printouts not full STCs, there is a 2% chance that there is a full STC on Avernus, if there is you have not yet found it
 
If we were actually finding STCs, I'd expect half of Mars' fleet in orbit and them to have bought the world from the Adeptus Terra, as we'd basically have found the Holy Grail.
Probably more than half. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with Mars sharing our orbit.

"We fitted it with warp engines thousands of years ago. Now where is the STC?"

"Right this way Fabricator-General."
 
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This is HUGE. An STC is the most valuable thing in the galaxy to AdMech. We could probably buy a whole secter (maybe more) with one. Even a 2% chance is the best chance AdMech has had in a long time.
 
What kind of STC is it though? Can it make anything or is it like that one that only made Men of Iron?
The 2% refers to a greater constructor, I believe, the things that make the templates. The men of iron one was a lesser constructor, I think, an automated production line for a single thing.

The terminology is mine, btw. They are both called constructors, because fuck clarity.
 
What kind of STC is it though? Can it make anything or is it like that one that only made Men of Iron?

An STC system that contains a library of designs as well as designs new stuff.

The other two things an STC can refer to is a printout from the above device (which is generally what STC refers to) and a Standard Template Constructor, which is a device that physically makes at least one STC design. (the exact info on that is not well known, as the only example ever found was for the Men of Iron but also corrupted by Chaos, so was destroyed rather than studied)
 
That's 2% more than just about anywhere in the Galaxy.
Nah, there is at least one canon still functioning STC constructor(with library maybe included) in one place. But this is warhammer so the people who have it said: "fuck it, let`s go full retard and hide it so that no one would ever find it.". Apart from that you have Speranza, which is an STC itself, aside from being huge starship made of fuck you and awesome. Then there is an artificial planet which was made in DAoT and should have decent chances of containing full functioning STC, but again, this is warhammer so no one is bothering to explore it seriously.

And now I wonder, which roll decides whether or not we will find that delicious STC? If it`s the ruin exploration roll, maybe it would be worth it to double down on it and reroll it every time so that we would get a crit successes most of the time?
 
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You are finding printouts not full STCs, there is a 2% chance that there is a full STC on Avernus, if there is you have not yet found it
How are you rolling for that exactly, if you don't mind me asking? Flat d100 every time we look? Or do we need some kind of +200 supercrit or something?
 
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Nah, there is at least one canon still functioning STC constructor(with library maybe included) in one place. But this is warhammer so the people who have it said: "fuck it, let`s go full retard and hide it so that no one would ever find it.". Apart from that you have Speranza, which is an STC itself, aside from being huge starship made of fuck you and awesome. Then there is an artificial planet which was made in DAoT and should have decent chances of containing full functioning STC, but again, this is warhammer so no one is bothering to explore it seriously.

And now I wonder, which roll decides whether or not we will find that delicious STC? If it`s the ruin exploration roll, maybe it would be worth it to double down on it and reroll it every time so that we would get a crit successes most of the time?

Durin rolled out what the ruins have within them at the start of the game i think. Crits at exploring them just explores them faster, it doesn't change their contents.
 
Durin rolled out what the ruins have within them at the start of the game i think. Crits at exploring them just explores them faster, it doesn't change their contents.
If he did that, then we wouldn`t have 2% chance of finding an intact STC. It would either be there already, or it wouldn`t. Since we have a chance of finding it, I assume durin is rolling it every time we do an exploration action.
 
Durin rolled out what the ruins have within them at the start of the game i think. Crits at exploring them just explores them faster, it doesn't change their contents.

If he did that, then we wouldn`t have 2% chance of finding an intact STC. It would either be there already, or it wouldn`t. Since we have a chance of finding it, I assume durin is rolling it every time we do an exploration action.

I think @Chronic has the right of it. We originally had a 2% chance of an actual STC, which has already been decided, but since we haven't finished exploring all of Avernus' ruins yet, we have no way of knowing which it is.

That's the only sane method, since rolling every time would mean that the actual chance varies depending on how many ruin exploration rolls we do. This would open the door to exploitation, in which case @durin probably wouldn't have disclosed the chance quite so openly.

(It also explains neatly why we didn't find anything in the ruins that one time, despite rolling a very good critical success.)
 
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If he did that, then we wouldn`t have 2% chance of finding an intact STC. It would either be there already, or it wouldn`t. Since we have a chance of finding it, I assume durin is rolling it every time we do an exploration action.

Here's the quote:

Doubling down on ruin exploration will only allow you to find what is there faster and will not change what there is to find, I have already determined that.

I imagine that durin might be fiddling with the loot tables every now and then as he gets ideas, but largely what's in each ruin is already set.
 
I imagine that durin might be fiddling with the loot tables every now and then as he gets ideas, but largely what's in each ruin is already set.
That would also be consistent with rolling the loot whenever we start exploring a ruin, which would allow for a 2% of a STC being present in one of the remaining ruins that have yet to be rolled.
 
Welp, that`s a depressing.

While it would be awesome to find one, it's not the end of the world. We already have some damn awesome stuff.

That would also be consistent with rolling the loot whenever we start exploring a ruin, which would allow for a 2% of a STC being present in one of the remaining ruins that have yet to be rolled.

That's not what I'm saying. I think he has already rolled for each ruin and set the loot table for each one. Sometimes he might get an idea for more interesting loot and switch out something less interesting.
 
That's not what I'm saying. I think he has already rolled for each ruin and set the loot table for each one. Sometimes he might get an idea for more interesting loot and switch out something less interesting.
I understood what you meant, but the passage you quoted would also be consistent with the other option I brought up.
 
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