The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[godofsmallthings]

How about this then.

For every 40 planets or 4 subsectors, which ever is lower, a High Council position with the right to vote would be created, with each planet holding the High Council membership for a single High Council meeting on a rotational basis.

The Mechanicus' efforts in setting up and expanding its facilities in the colonies would be given greater priority and support until they become full members of the Trust.


Would this be enough to get it to pass ?

If not we could throw the conservatives a bone...

 

[Briefvoice]

Conservative Bill of Rights:

1. All worlds have ability to ban Xenos from their system, and the rest of the trust can't force it. Though if you sign a treaty allowing Xenos you can't unilaterally break it because that would make the Trust look bad.

2. Industrial Development will always be at the discretion of an individual world. No one will ever force Vanaheim to put factories on the world they are trying to ecologically preserve.

3. All worlds will always retain the power to censor foreign media at their discretion.

4. Worlds will be able to plead for a "cultural Exemption' against an individual Trust policy, with claims adjudicated by a neutral party (the church). Acts of the High Council be blocked for an individual world under this exemption, though it is expected the Church will attempt to negotiate a compromise.

And I know you're going to say for a lot of this, "But they can' already do that!" The point is to reassure them that a future version of the High Council doesn't have the right to change that with a vote.

 

[DeusFerreus]

Uhm, their combined economy is about two times smaller than Alfheim's (compared by economy strength in kCredits) .

Click to shrink...

So? Alfheim is 4th largest economy in the Trust. And Asgard, Jotunheim and Byzantium (and possibly Helheim) are behind the combined colonies economically.

 

[Briefvoice]

How about this then.

For every 40 planets or 4 subsectors, which ever is lower, a High Council position with the right to vote would be created, with the High Council membership rotating among the planets.

The Mechanicus' efforts in setting up and expanding its facilities in the colonies would be given greater priority and support until they become full members of the Trust.

Click to shrink...

I don't think you can get there by haggling over numbers.

The problem is that once you set the bar so high as to reassure Conservatives their voting influence isn't diluted, Surt won't support it. Because his whole issue is that the voting influence of the current High Council members should be diluted over time, and the colony worlds should be able to have a real say in Trust government at the highest levels. The Conservatives don't like that someday they might be outvoted by the colonies, and Surt is like, "But someday you should prepare to be outvoted by the colonies."

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

If not we could throw the conservatives a bone...

Click to shrink...

Can we just give them a bit more influence in the colonies, to balance the scales a bit? A guaranteed governorship or two, provided the candidates are actually competent. That kind of thing.

No one will ever force Vanaheim to put factories on the world they are trying to ecologically preserve.

Click to shrink...

Heh, it's good for a draft. Thing is, that'll still leave the Cons potentially surrounded by Progs in the future, completely out-powered. No bill of rights guarantees anything against that.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

For every 40 planets or 4 subsectors, which ever is lower, a High Council position with the right to vote would be created.

The Mechanicus' efforts in setting up and expanding its facilities in the colonies would be given greater priority and support until they become full members of the Trust.


Would this be enough to get it to pass ?

If not we could throw the conservatives a bone...

Click to shrink...

Lower it to 3 subsectors then we've got a deal.

And I know you're going to say for a lot of this, "But they can' already do that!" The point is to reassure them that a future version of the High Council doesn't have the right to change that with a vote.

Click to shrink...

No my main beef is that it'd acknowledge them as a real party because the last thing we need is parties.

My other beef is yeah this is a waste of time because they can already do all of what these guarantees say.

In short no **** them and they can grow up instead of throwing a stupid tantrum.

The problem is that once you set the bar so high as to reassure Conservatives their voting influence isn't diluted, Surt won't support it. Because his whole issue is that the voting influence of the current High Council members should be diluted over time, and the colony worlds should be able to have a real say in Trust government at the highest levels. The Conservatives don't like that someday they might be outvoted by the colonies, and Surt is like, "But someday you should prepare to be outvoted by the colonies."

Click to shrink...

No he's saying you should be prepared to give these people a say because in a few years they'll have incredibly large economies and armies who might decide to say "Screw you guys I'll make my own thing with black jack and hookers."

What you're saying is back ground .

If they want to compain let em, but I

 

[Stormgear]

Wait.

He's red-themed, super intelligent, possibly superhuman, and is pushing for colonial rights.

Guys I think Surt might be Char Aznable.

 

[godofsmallthings]

I don't think you can get there by haggling over numbers.

The problem is that once you set the bar so high as to reassure Conservatives their voting influence isn't diluted, Surt won't support it. Because his whole issue is that the voting influence of the current High Council members should be diluted over time, and the colony worlds should be able to have a real say in Trust government at the highest levels. The Conservatives don't like that someday they might be outvoted by the colonies, and Surt is like, "But someday you should prepare to be outvoted by the colonies."

Click to shrink...

Durin did say that 50 would be way too much to be supported by Surt, so I am working my way backwards from there.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

If they want to compain let em

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They might do more than complain. They might see themselves forced. We really want to avoid that. For now, they're blocking colonial appeasement, and I'm not sure they're wrong and Surt is right.

 

[Briefvoice]

Can we just give them a bit more influence in the colonies, to balance the scales a bit? A guaranteed governorship or two, provided the candidates are actually competent. That kind of thing.

Heh, it's good for a draft. Thing is, that'll still leave the Cons potentially surrounded by Progs in the future, completely out-powered. No bill of rights guarantees anything against that.

Click to shrink...

Durin said a strong enough bill of rights would be enough to get them to vote for the proposal, even with the danger of being surrounded by progressives.

No my main beef is that it'd acknowledge them as a real party because the last thing we need is parties.

My other beef is yeah this is a waste of time because they can already do all of what these guarantees say.

In short no **** them and they can grow up instead of throwing a stupid tantrum.

If they want to compain let em, but I

Click to shrink...

You can complain about how unreasonable you are as much as you want, but the proposal doesn't have the votes right now. It won't get the votes without giving something to the Conservatives. They don't have to throw a tantrum. All they have to do is not vote in favor. They don't have to complain, all they have to do is vote no. They have the power here.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

They might do more than complain. They might see themselves forced. We really want to avoid that.

Click to shrink...

I know that, but if they're really upset about 1-4 seats for what will eventually grow to be an incredibly important and large part of our populationetting added then they're just being stupid.

Vanahiem especially seeing as they're the centre of most the Trust's ship building.

For now, they're blocking colonial appeasement, and I'm not sure they're wrong and Surt is right.

Click to shrink...

Why?

The majority of me who's thinking about the Trust as a whole sees it as saving us an issue before it becomes one (after all it won't become an issue that people will grumble about if it's dealt with before it even becomes one) Its the same reason I want to do the bank thing, if we deal with it now it'll never become an issue and that's infinitely preferable to it becoming a thing (because you can't kill ideas with bullets... or at least not without too many bullets)

You can complain about how unreasonable you are as much as you want, but the proposal doesn't have the votes right now. It won't get the votes without giving something to the Conservatives. They don't have to throw a tantrum. All they have to do is not vote in favor. They don't have to complain, all they have to do is vote no. They have the power here.

Click to shrink...

edit mis read 3/4ths vote.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Right so I refuse to give them a "bill of rights," but we can go another way.

@Durin
1. Would adding an addition to the proposition making it easier for the Colony councillor to be booted off satisfy the Asgard without pissing Surt of.

I'm not sure what to do for the Alfar, so I'll think about it.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

4. Worlds will be able to plead for a "cultural Exemption' against an individual Trust policy, with claims adjudicated by a neutral party (the church). Acts of the High Council be blocked for an individual world under this exemption, though it is expected the Church will attempt to negotiate a compromise.

Click to shrink...

Too broad wording. If the Trust declares war, we want every world to contribute to the war effort. Just an example.

Why?

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It might not work, for one. The colonies might just demand more votes as they gain in power. I don't see why they wouldn't, given there's no much difference between having one vote out of 14 to share among 25 other province worlds, compared to not having a vote at all.
And maybe the Cons have a plan for the long term, and it really is in their best interest to keep the provinces vote-less for the foreseeable future.

No my main beef is that it'd acknowledge them as a real party because the last thing we need is parties.

Click to shrink...

It's more of a political bloc. And not acknowledging it's existence won't make it go away, nor will acknowledging it make it stronger.

My other beef is yeah this is a waste of time because they can already do all of what these guarantees say.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, they probably wouldn't pay for something they already have.

Durin said a strong enough bill of rights would be enough to get them to vote for the proposal, even with the danger of being surrounded by progressives.

Click to shrink...

I'd still rather negotiate a few governorships with the Cons. Influence is the issue, might as well address it directly. Gets around the artificial colonisation restriction, too. If we deal fairly with the Cons, chances are better they'll deal fairly with us. Not guaranteed, just better.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

It might not work, for one. The colonies might just demand more votes as they gain in power. I don't see why they wouldn't, given there's no much difference between having one vote out of 14 to share among 25 other province worlds, compared to not having a vote at all.

Click to shrink...

In my experience when I have a problem I only notice it when it affects me and when the idea appears it doesn't go away.

Giving them no representation is asking for trouble because as soon as someone asks why they shouldn't then we get the scenario you envisage, with many colonies asking why don't they don't have a vote.

On the other hand if we give them this one vote now when that person asks everyone else will laugh or explain that they do and it'll hopefully make them shut up or at least give the idea less traction.

It's more of a political bloc. And not acknowledging it's existence won't make it go away, nor will acknowledging it make it stronger.

Click to shrink...

It's already a political bloc same with the progressives, what I want to avoid is partisanship.

However you are wrong that acknowledging it won't strengthen it cause it really will.

Acknowledging something like this gives it legitimacy that it wouldn't otherwise enjoy its saying oh this is important enough that the top people in our government went and made an exception to it that's cool and awesome.

It also makes these goombas think they can get away with more crap.

I'd still rather negotiate a few governorships with the Cons. Influence is the issue, might as well address it directly. Gets around the artificial colonisation restriction, too.

Click to shrink...

I'd rather go around the issue and approach Asgard and Alfalhiem.

Asgard is doing it mostly out of fear of the new person not being good enough and the Alfar don't want to become useless how can we fix that.

 

[Enjou]

Conservative Bill of Rights:

1. All worlds have ability to ban Xenos from their system, and the rest of the trust can't force it. Though if you sign a treaty allowing Xenos you can't unilaterally break it because that would make the Trust look bad.

2. Industrial Development will always be at the discretion of an individual world. No one will ever force Vanaheim to put factories on the world they are trying to ecologically preserve.

3. All worlds will always retain the power to censor foreign media at their discretion.

4. Worlds will be able to plead for a "cultural Exemption' against an individual Trust policy, with claims adjudicated by a neutral party (the church). Acts of the High Council be blocked for an individual world under this exemption, though it is expected the Church will attempt to negotiate a compromise.

And I know you're going to say for a lot of this, "But they can' already do that!" The point is to reassure them that a future version of the High Council doesn't have the right to change that with a vote.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I don't want to codify any of this. It's not necessary, and doesn't change anything. I think extra colonization rights is the way to go, if we need to offer something.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

Giving them no representation is asking for trouble because as soon as someone asks why then we get the scenario you envisage, with many colonies asking why don't we have a vote.

Click to shrink...

However you are wrong that acknowledging it won't strengthen it cause it really will. [...] It also makes these goombas think they can get away with more crap.

Click to shrink...

You put a lot of stock in symbolic votes and pretending other people don't exist. Spin and propaganda works, yes, but only on the peasants that don't have to deal with real-politics on a daily basis. And we can only control the spin and propaganda here on Avernus, at least for now.
The governors, the generals, admirals, arch-magi - the people whose opinions we're first and foremost concerned with, they spend all day thinking these things over. It's their job to pore over the chessboard of the grand game and look twelve steps ahead, carefully trying to spot any deception, like we're doing. They're going to consider real-politics, not symbols. And they can implement their own spin and propaganda on their planets much easier than we can.
They know who exists and who wants what, regardless if certain other people pretend they don't exist (which makes them look pretty arrogant and rude).
They won't look at this vote and see it as anything other than it is, and it is an attempt by the Core governors to placate the provinces and limit their influence.
And they'll know exactly what they can get away with, as they do right now.

 

[Stormgear]

I don't think we can do much about Vanaheim, really. But I think we can probably win over Asgard and Svartalfheim if we make sure that anyone who gets brought up into the High Council is competent and adequately represents their constituency and doesn't rock the boat overmuch. I'd recommend that anyone who will be brought up into the High Council as a representative of the Low must:

1) Be selected from a pool of no less than (3 to 5? I don't know the best number here) candidates put forward by the Low Council. The High Council must select at least one of these candidates by majority vote after debate. If no candidate meets muster, then only by a 2/3rds vote can the Low Council be required to select a new pool. Other existing Low Council representatives may not take part in the vote to select a new Low Council representative.

2a) Once elected by High Council, the speaker will serve for perpetuity or until removed from their position by a 2/3 vote by the Low Council. If a candidate is under impeachment, they and the other representatives of the Low Council are not permitted to take part in this vote.
2b) Possible methods of Veto might include one of:
2b.i) A 2/3rds vote from the High Council minus Low Council representatives
2b.ii) Either the Security Council or Inquisition evaluates the veracity of the Low Council's claims and votes to either veto or allow it to pass.
2b.iii) A combination of the Security Council and representatives of the Inquisition evaluate the veracity fo the Low Council's claims and votes to either veto or allow it to pass.

(Addendum: A 2/3rds majority in the Low Council is already sizable enough that I think this should only happen very rarely and only when the Low Council feels that they are not being well represented. I'm not sure a veto is even necessary, but it may help assuage Alfheim's worries.)

3) If a position needs to be filled anew, refer to (1).

I think this, in addition to raising the cap to 30 worlds, should be enough to appease Asgard and Svartalfheim.

I'd also really, really recommend making sure that the worlds in question are at least in relatively close proximity to one another. We may want to change the method of election to the candidate pool to represent only individual 'groups' of 25/30 worlds. That way the people in those groups of 25/30 can put forward candidates that they feel best represent THEIR interests.

@Durin
1) Would this measure win over Asgard and Svartalfheim?
2) If not, what are their remaining concerns?
3) Does Alfheim have any proposals to avoid being marginalized?

 

[Enjou]

I don't think we can do much about Vanaheim, really. But I think we can probably win over Asgard and Svartalfheim if we make sure that anyone who gets brought up into the High Council is competent and adequately represents their constituency and doesn't rock the boat overmuch. I'd recommend that anyone who will be brought up into the High Council as a representative of the Low must:

1) Be selected from a pool of no less than (3 to 5? I don't know the best number here) candidates put forward by the Low Council. The High Council must select at least one of these candidates by majority vote after debate. If no candidate meets muster, then only by a 2/3rds vote can the Low Council be required to select a new pool. Other existing Low Council representatives may not take part in the vote to select a new Low Council representative.

2) Once elected by High Council, the speaker will serve for perpetuity or until removed from their position by a 2/3 vote by the Low Council which may be vetoed by a simple majority of the High Council. If a candidate is under impeachment, they and the other representatives of the Low Council are not permitted to take part in the veto vote.

3) If a position needs to be filled anew, refer to (1).

I think this, in addition to raising the cap to 30 worlds, should be enough to appease Asgard and Svartalfheim.

I'd also really, really recommend making sure that the worlds in question are at least in relatively close proximity to one another. We may want to change the method of election to the candidate pool to represent only individual 'groups' of 25/30 worlds. That way the people in those groups of 25/30 can put forward candidates that they feel best represent THEIR interests.

@Durin
1) Would this measure win over Asgard and Svartalfheim?
2) If not, what are their remaining concerns?
3) Does Alfheim have any proposals to avoid being marginalized?

Click to shrink...

If the High Council can just veto them being unelected then they become more answerable to the High Council than the colonies, which defeats the purpose of giving the colonies representation.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

'd also really, really recommend making sure that the worlds in question are at least in relatively close proximity to one another. [...] That way the people in those groups of 25/30 can put forward candidates that they feel best represent THEIR interests.

Click to shrink...

Are we trying to limit province influence, or promote it? Because I thought the geographical dispersion as a natural consequence in Surt's proposal was a feature, not a bug.

 

[Stormgear]

If the High Council can just veto them being unelected then they become more answerable to the High Council than the colonies, which defeats the purpose of giving the colonies representation.

Click to shrink...

This is a fair point. Maybe if the veto threshold is raised to a 2/3rds vote rather than a 1/2? That way the veto should only get used when most of the High Council agrees, and I like to think that most of the governors are reasonable enough to know when someone needs to go.

I could drop the veto entirely, too. The 2/3rds Low Council vote is large enough. I could also say that the final say would go to the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition or something.

Are we trying to limit province influence, or promote it? Because I thought the geographical dispersion as a natural consequence in Surt's proposal was a feature, not a bug.

Click to shrink...

I'm easy either way.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

You put a lot of stock in symbolic votes and pretending other people don't exist. Spin and propaganda works, yes, but only on the peasants that don't have to deal with real-politics on a daily basis. And we can only control the spin and propaganda here on Avernus, at least for now.
The governors, the generals, admirals, arch-magi - the people whose opinions we're first and foremost concerned with, they spend all day thinking these things over. It's their job to pore over the chessboard of the grand game and look twelve steps ahead, carefully trying to spot any deception, like we're doing. They're going to consider real-politics, not symbols. And they can implement their own spin and propaganda on their planets much easier than we can.
They know who exists and who wants what, regardless if certain other people pretend they don't exist (which makes them look pretty arrogant and rude).
They won't look at this vote and see it as anything other than it is, and it is an attempt by the Core governors to placate the provinces and limit their influence.
And they'll know exactly what they can get away with, as they do right now.

Click to shrink...

They're not peasants for peats sake if they were this wouldn't be a problem, but they are incredibly well educated on all worlds and because we have relatively low propaganda in the trust they can find out this information, because they are not stupid so this applies to below as well.

As for the governors yeah they'll know, but it will placate them for a few centuries as it'll be their man they're sending up who can speak and vote for them which they should know is the most they can get away with for now until a few centuries down the line where we're almost certainly going to have to change the Trust's structure for one reason or another.

Yeah, I don't want to codify any of this. It's not necessary, and doesn't change anything. I think extra colonization rights is the way to go, if we need to offer something.

Click to shrink...

Or we could try to reach out to the Alfar and Asgard.

Leave the Vanir out completely.

If the High Council can just veto them being unelected then they become more answerable to the High Council than the colonies, which defeats the purpose of giving the colonies representation.

Click to shrink...

I dunno, it seems fine to me if it appeases the Alfar and Asgard.

In that case the one is almost certain to get selected.

That being said @Stormgear maybe add the Security council or Inquisition to the selection process instead.

or Inquisition or something.

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Inquisition or security council.

Let them come to the decision in private or something.

 

[HanEmpire]

4. Worlds will be able to plead for a "cultural Exemption' against an individual Trust policy, with claims adjudicated by a neutral party (the church). Acts of the High Council be blocked for an individual world under this exemption, though it is expected the Church will attempt to negotiate a compromise.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely not, the Church must be kept out of secular affairs on all fronts.

I also object to trying to appease the Vanir on any point. Mikaelsson is determined to Make Vanaheim Great Again, and that means he'll likely take, take, and take without giving. Appeasement only works if the other side is willing to concede things in response.

 

[Stormgear]

Edited my previous post to take into account the comments I've received thus far.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

I don't think we can do much about Vanaheim, really. But I think we can probably win over Asgard and Svartalfheim

Click to shrink...

Leave the Vanir out completely.

Click to shrink...

If we start isolating Vanaheim like this, they'll probably drift further from us. We want Vanaheim to see things our way, not to see us as enemies. We do not want a schism in the trust.
The colonies can and will get their votes eventually. This isn't worth alienating other worlds over or burn political favor. We'd be paying for something we'll get for free soon enough.

 

[Stormgear]

If we start isolating Vanaheim like this, they'll probably drift further from us. We want Vanaheim to see things our way, not to see us as enemies. We do not want a schism in the trust.
The colonies can and will get their votes eventually. This isn't worth alienating other worlds over or burn political favor. We'd be paying for something we'll get for free soon enough.

Click to shrink...

The trouble is that I'm not sure there's any way to assuage their fears short of straight up shoving a bunch of bonus colonial privileges at them. They don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives but... I mean, that's just the direction things are going? If they don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives, they better start proving why Conservatism is a better way to go.