The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Doomed Wombat]

If we start isolating Vanaheim like this, they'll probably drift further from us. We want Vanaheim to see things our way, not to see us as enemies. We do not want a schism in the trust.

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But we're not treating them as enemies not at all... no really they're annoying, but they're not the enemy until it causes an explosion.

If Bertil starts a schism over this then I will be really questioning why anyone thought giving him governorship was a good idea and want him impeached.

It's up to him and his cohorts to prove that their way is the right way to go and ditching the rest of the Trust is not the way to go.

Besides the Vanir cannot support themselves without the Trust's aid their ship yards would stop functioning and there's many who would object to it on world Olaf first of all.

They can try and go out in a blaze of glory, but I don't think they're quite that suicidal or angry.

 

[Briefvoice]

The trouble is that I'm not sure there's any way to assuage their fears short of straight up shoving a bunch of bonus colonial privileges at them. They don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives but... I mean, that's just the direction things are going? If they don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives, they better start proving why Conservatism is a better way to go.

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You keep saying "they don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives", but I'm not sure that's exactly the right way to say it.

What we heard repeatedly is that they are worried that the Trust will force Vanaheim itself to change, to discard its ancient traditions, and to be something else. They don't give a crap what people on other worlds do. If Avernus or whomever wants to be Progressive on their own world, that's fine with the Conservatives. What terrifies them is the idea that someday they're going to get caught up in a radical reformation where they are forced to change or die.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

The trouble is that I'm not sure there's any way to assuage their fears

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We don't have to, is my point. In regards to the province vote, the provinces will make their own pressure on the issue in time. The main issue really is just to keep the Trust in one piece. And I think the provinces can wait another 50 years. It's easy to be patient when you have rejuvenat.

I mean, that's just the direction things are going?

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Indeed.

What terrifies them is the idea that someday they're going to get caught up in a radical reformation where they are forced to change or die.

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Why would they die?
I could understand them being terrified of being surrounded by tech-heretics. Herecy is herecy.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

You keep saying "they don't want to be overwhelmed by Progressives", but I'm not sure that's exactly the right way to say it.

What we heard repeatedly is that they are worried that the Trust will force Vanaheim itself to change, to discard its ancient traditions, and to be something else. They don't give a crap what people on other worlds do. If Avernus or whomever wants to be Progressive on their own world, that's fine with the Conservatives. What terrifies them is the idea that someday they're going to get caught up in a radical reformation where they are forced to change or die.

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But we're not doing that nor can I possibly envisage a scenario where that would happen save the Abomination pulling an Eldar and making it so that anyone who keeps too closely to tradition becoming spontaneously becomes corrupted.

Then again I suppose they're not being logical which is fair enough on this one.

That being said I think you're still a bit too focused on the Vanir, there are two other worlds voting against it... and the Inquisition for reasons unknown.

As for their ancient traditions pff, I imagine Surt has some strong opinions and evidence on that.

We don't have to, the provinces will make their own pressure on the issue in time. The main issue really is just to keep the Trust in one piece.

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And then they'll all want a seat.

To use your logic when they put enough pressure on us for seats they'll all be able too do so and so they'll either demand more than we're currently offering or just flat out ask for equal status to the core.

Give them this one seat and let them just get used to it for now. It'll have to be changed up eventually as well.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

And then they'll all want a seat.

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I think that's inevitable in the long run. I'm not seeing how we can prevent that, short of actual repression, and that seems Abominable.
They can have the seat for all I care now, but I don't want to pay for it. I don't think it's necessary. If they get a few more votes down the line, no particularly big deal. As you say:

It'll have to be changed up eventually as well.

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and the Inquisition for reasons unknown.

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I've been wondering about that too.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I think that's inevitable in the long run. I'm not seeing how we can prevent that, short of actual repression, and that seems Abominable.
They can have the seat for all I care now, but I don't want to pay for it. I don't think it's necessary. If they get a few more votes down the line, no particularly big deal. As you say:

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Not necessarily.

In a few hundred years we'll have continued to advance, improving our neo astropaths, deploying Librarians trained for the job for important connections and with any luck Scott will have reformed the admech (she'll probably get a boost when Varnak dies which should be soon now.)

I'd also rather get this done now save us a head ache and digging this up again and for other reasons I've already mentioned.

I've been wondering about that too.

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Shrug.

Klovis is being tight lipped about it, hopefully Stormgear's proposal giving them more control over the process will be enough to flip him.

 

[ArchAIngel]

I'm wondering why Surt relied on us for coming up with a good argument.

Did our little Trust-making endeavour really impress him or something?

 

[HanEmpire]

I'm wondering why Surt relied on us for coming up with a good argument.

Did our little Trust-making endeavour really impress him or something?

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Rotbart has a consistent record of pulling out good compromises.
Note that when the different colonization plans were being discussed the entire High Council turned to Rotbart to produce a solution.

 

[ArchAIngel]

Rotbart has a consistent record of pulling out good compromises.
Note that when the different colonization plans were being discussed the entire High Council turned to Rotbart to produce a solution.

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...

The curses of stupid high Admin.

 

[Andres]

Svartalfheim- worried about changing the political make up of a system that works

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I have an argument which may work. "Systems are made to address a particular set of circumstances. The system currently works because the circumstances haven't radically changed since its inception but they will. Just as a system meant to address a world cannot address nine, a system meant to address nine worlds cannot address the many dozens of worlds that will exist in the future. When the circumstances change, it will be necessary to change the system into one that can address the new circumstances. We did this once before, when the Emperor died and the Imperial Trust was born."

I'm not 100% certain, but I have a strong suspicion that Chaos-memetics during formative times of the human livecycle cannot be good for mind and soul.

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You are correct, but that is not the whole story. Babies have the innate holiness and strength of a human soul, the innate purity and innocence that comes with being a baby, and blessed ignorance to prevent them from being capable of accepting Chaos. This gives them a good measure of resistance to the corrupting touch of Chaos. This means that they can be saved if they haven't been subjected to anything too extreme.

If I remember correctly, one backstory of a Witch Hunter was that of a child whose cultist family was about to sacrifice him until the Witch Hunters stormed in, killed all the cultists, and rescued him. By all accounts he turned out fine, though with an above-average hatred of Chaos compared to other Witch Hunters.

Wait.

He's red-themed, super intelligent, possibly superhuman, and is pushing for colonial rights.

Guys I think Surt might be Char Aznable.

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Surt was there since near the start of the game, I think, and the Starcraft references didn't begin until much later.

 

[ArchAIngel]

I have an argument which may work. "Systems are made to address a particular set of circumstances. The system currently works because the circumstances haven't radically changed since its inception but they will. Just as a system meant to address a world cannot address nine, a system meant to address nine worlds cannot address the many dozens of worlds that will exist in the future. When the circumstances change, it will be necessary to change the system into one that can address the new circumstances. We did this once before, when the Emperor died and the Imperial Trust was born."


You are correct, but that is not the whole story. Babies have the innate holiness and strength of a human soul, the innate purity and innocence that comes with being a baby, and blessed ignorance to prevent them from being capable of accepting Chaos. This gives them a good measure of resistance to the corrupting touch of Chaos. This means that they can be saved if they haven't been subjected to anything too extreme.

If I remember correctly, one backstory of a Witch Hunter was that of a child whose cultist family was about to sacrifice him until the Witch Hunters stormed in, killed all the cultists, and rescued him. By all accounts he turned out fine.


Surt was there since near the start of the game, I think, and the Starcraft references didn't begin until much later.

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Char Aznable is Gundam.

Not Starcraft.

 

[HanEmpire]

You are correct, but that is not the whole story. Babies have the innate holiness and strength of a human soul, the innate purity and innocence that comes with being a baby, and blessed ignorance to prevent them from being capable of accepting Chaos. This gives them a good measure of resistance to the corrupting touch of Chaos. This means that they can be saved if they haven't been subjected to anything too extreme.

If I remember correctly, one backstory of a Witch Hunter was that of a child whose cultist family was about to sacrifice him until the Witch Hunters stormed in, killed all the cultists, and rescued him. By all accounts he turned out fine.

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I think there's a difference in the scale of corruption here. A hidden cultist family that conducts its rituals and blasphemies within the limits of seclusion will likely have far less corruption than a cultist family that lives on Chaos-run worlds, surrounded at all times by billions of other cultists, attending Chaos-sermons at Chaos-Cathedrals, etc.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

The curses of stupid high Admin.

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This is more of a diplomatic contention, so Surt should have gone to whoever has the highest diplomacy: Sigurd... who doesn't want more people on the council. Right, I guess that means Julius.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Surt was there since near the start of the game, I think, and the Starcraft references didn't begin until much later.

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Not really, things like bio steel and the Impaler were discovered before we met Surt though I believe he was generated at game start.

I think there's a difference in the scale of corruption here. A hidden cultist family that conducts its rituals and blasphemies within the limits of seclusion will likely have far less corruption than a cultist family that lives on Chaos-run worlds, surrounded at all times by billions of other cultists, attending Chaos-sermons at Chaos-Cathedrals, etc.

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Given the Abomination is about control all babies are probably branded or something.

This is more of a diplomatic contention, so Surt should have gone to whoever has the highest diplomacy: Sigurd... who doesn't want more people on the council. Right, I guess that means Julius.

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mmm.

Depends how you view the problem I suppose...

An analytical mind would probably be better for creating a compromise diplo seems more about convincing people to support it. Both would work for figuring out ways to make people support it I guess.

 

[Reynal]

One thing we might want to consider is how we should represent institutions in the High Council.

In addition to the Conservative vote getting diluted if/when more seats are added, the votes of institutions like the Mechanicus and Inquisition will carry less weight despite them growing to match the increase in the size of the Trust.

Ultimately, I don't see any real way of both giving the growing colonies fair representation while maintaining the 'hard' power of the existing planets as Vanaheim and Alfheim seem to want. As I see it, the options most likely to be palatable to both sides involve some combination of codifying some level of special protections and 'extra' powers for the founding members, having some direct representation from the colonies on the High Council, limiting or altering the scope of the High Council, or creating a level of regional government for the colonies we don't have direct influence on and having a very light touch on them with the High Council.

One way to solve a couple problems would be to have a sub-sector level of government set up mostly like our current High Council (with direct representation from both the local planetary governments and the relevant Trust-wide authorities (such as the fleet, Trust Guard, Mechanicus, and Inquisition). That would be a good way to establish a more local level of governemnt as well as ensure that institutions such as the Mechanicus don't lose their voice as the Trust expands.

We could also let the local governemnt send a representative to the High Council meetings with the right to participate in High Council debates and vote on issues that disproportionately affect their regions. Toss in an 'easy' way to get them off if they prove disruptive or incompetent (such as a bare majority vote of full members). This wouldn't increase our total numbers in the High Council by too much while still ensuring the colonies get their voices heard as well as a vote on issues that are very much their business.

Another possibility would be to do something like a House of Lords/House of Commons split in the High Council. Basically leave the Low Council in charge of day-to-day matters and requiring major policy and constitutional changes to pass through both our current High Council and another Council similar in makeup to the Low Council (except perhaps weighted with military/economic/population numbers). That way both groups have effective veto power. Maybe also throw in an emergency clause to avoid issues with gridlock and I think that could give the colonies representation without compromising our ability to respond quickly and efficiently to the unexpected.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Another possibility would be to do something like a House of Lords/House of Commons split in the High Council. Basically leave the Low Council in charge of day-to-day matters and requiring major policy and constitutional changes to pass through both our current High Council.

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That's already what we have going.

 

[HanEmpire]

How about this?
-Rebrand the current High Council as the Middle Council (or something), with the current seating arrangements (Planetary Governors, Local Mechanicus bigwigs, Sub-sector Security Council representative, Inquisition, etc)
-Have Middle Councils be the top organizations of regional sub-sectors
-Create a new High Council with representatives from all Middle Councils and the leaders of various organizations (Head of Trust Security Council, a Lord Inquisitor, Fabricator General of the Mechanicus, Astartes representative)

It'd solve the problem of the Core Worlds having much more representation and authority to the detriment of the Rim Worlds, since everyone would theoretically have the same amount of authority within the structure of the Imperial Trust. Plus the non-planetary organizations like the Mechanicus would get votes at all Middle Councils in addition to the vote at the very top.

No idea what duties and responsibilities each Council will be assigned with though, or how the representatives for the High Council would be selected.

 

[Stormgear]

We could also ensure that the Mechanicus and Inquisition retain a degree of control as the Trust expands by mandating that any Low Council representative must be advised not only by a council of the governors he represents, but also by representatives from the Mechanicus operating in those worlds and likewise by the Inquisition.

Of course, the Inquisition does have OTHER means of leveraging its powers, but ensuring that the Low Councillor representatives are required to at least hear the concerns of their local Inquisitors and Magos should assist in maintaining those groups' representation.

I'd offer additional seats, but that would just lead to even more bloat.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Of course, the Inquisition does have OTHER means of leveraging its powers,

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And the admech too.

They're so crucial to the Trust that if they were to go on strike we'd be doomed.

Still I can't think of problems giving them a seat.

 

[Stormgear]

And the admech too.

They're so crucial to the Trust that if they were to go on strike we'd be doomed.

Still I can't think of problems giving them a seat.

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Disproportionate voting power invested into either group. Unlike the rest of the trust and its various governors and representatives, the Admech and Inquisition are ostensibly monolithic groups that are represented by their leaders, so any additional votes would be expected to tow the party line. I know there are still factions in both, but it would probably be seen by the others in the High Council as a power grab and would only dilute their power further.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Disproportionate voting power invested into either group. Unlike the rest of the trust and its various governors and representatives, the Admech and Inquisition are ostensibly monolithic groups that are represented by their leaders, so any additional votes would be expected to tow the party line. I know there are still factions in both, but it would probably be seen by the others in the High Council as a power grab and would only dilute their power further.

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Huh.

Oh I wasn't advocating for extra seats for either, though with the admech it's probably correct with Scott's Fabricator Locutor voting for what she wants to vote for.

The Inquisition though is a bit different because we can never tell exactly what's going on in the back ground.

For instance is Klovis voting against it because he in the moment feels that's the best option or did the Inquisition get together in a back room and hammer something out?

They're certainly embedded enough and have the diplomacy to do all of the ears to the ground they need so they could have, but it's equally possible that this is just Klovis making a snap decision that he'll have to justify later.

Who knows.

 

[random_npc]

hmm, spitbaling a way to make surts proposal go down smooth, what about a sort of soft veto for the original members? If the majority of the current high councilors vote something down it counts as a soft veto so it needs say 60% or 70% of the total council to vote for it. It gives the colonies representation but gives the core worlds an edge. Not an overwhelming one, and not one that would be used to shoot down every proposal, but one that means they can be confident of always being important.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

BTW for the future how does trying to convince the colonies and other worlds to build one or two small ship yards sound.

And no I am not trying to piss off the Vanir hear me out.

Currently Vanahiem is the centre of our ship production and that's probably never going to change...well I do hope we'll be able to get at least one more ship building central for redundancies sake, probably on that world the Vanir? colonised.

My reasoning is that by giving most worlds some of this infrastructure it'll serve to both reduce upkeep costs as when patrol ships jump into a system they can stop off at a ship yard for a quick tune up or emergency repairs if needed, but more importantly it's so they can handle the Trust's production of Destroyer, Escort and Light Cruiser class ships.

By doing this it'll let the Vanir focus their ship yards on the things only they can mass produce like battleships or Grand Cruisers or things that only they can make like command ships and Dreadnoughts.

Long term plan, but hopefully it's one Bertil can appreciate.

 

[Andres]

BTW for the future how does trying to convince the colonies and other worlds to build one or two small ship yards sound.

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Durin already said it wasn't a worthwhile idea.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Durin already said it wasn't a worthwhile idea.

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I think he said (or meant) it wasn't a good idea now.

This is intended for a few centuries or so when they're established.

I hope.