ArchAIngel
Sorcerer Supreme.
- Location
- Right behind you.
...Has anyone considered just asking them?
-
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
We know Muspelheim has secrets they don't want to tell because it'll likely result in them being labeled as tech heretics by the conservatives in the AdMech, which means all sorts of trouble. Niflheim also seems to be pretty secretive - they were the only ones against the education exchange, which is very odd. Asking probably won't work.
ArchAIngel
Sorcerer Supreme.
- Location
- Right behind you.
Honestly, I just want to see if flat out asking will do something. Be a first for quest diplomacy.
HanEmpire
Delicious
It runs the risk of them getting overly defensive/secretive, and might sour relationships. Let's lay off it for now.
Maybe we can do it after the Mechanicus gets reformed so that we don't have a massively powerful reactionary force ready to go crazy.
- Location
- Berkeley
Some issues with trying to find out diplomatically.
First, as others have mentioned, it's likely to put them on their guard, both making it harder to figure out covertly and reduce the chances that they'll dip into any unique resources they have (to avoid tipping us off). Odds are if we'd been explicitly nosy they'd have known nothing about any data cores.
Second, they might not be mentioning it for everyone's benefit. Imagine if Muspelheim actually had an AI, like some people have theorized, and decided to mention it in diplomatic talks. They could have kicked off the admech civil war we're trying to prevent. If Niffleheim is made of blanks and knowledge leaks, we'd have to deal with every non-chaos group in range wanting some of them.
Third, there's the question of how the other nations would react. It's entirely possible that we're the only ones in the Trust that know something big is up. None of them were tipping their hands before the Imperium fell, and I doubt the other governments are as closely tied to the Inquisition. They might know something's a bit odd about them but are working under something like an informal don't ask, don't tell policy.
First, as others have mentioned, it's likely to put them on their guard, both making it harder to figure out covertly and reduce the chances that they'll dip into any unique resources they have (to avoid tipping us off). Odds are if we'd been explicitly nosy they'd have known nothing about any data cores.
Second, they might not be mentioning it for everyone's benefit. Imagine if Muspelheim actually had an AI, like some people have theorized, and decided to mention it in diplomatic talks. They could have kicked off the admech civil war we're trying to prevent. If Niffleheim is made of blanks and knowledge leaks, we'd have to deal with every non-chaos group in range wanting some of them.
Third, there's the question of how the other nations would react. It's entirely possible that we're the only ones in the Trust that know something big is up. None of them were tipping their hands before the Imperium fell, and I doubt the other governments are as closely tied to the Inquisition. They might know something's a bit odd about them but are working under something like an informal don't ask, don't tell policy.
Midgard Armed Forces in the Post Imperium era
Here's my take on Midgard coming to grips with the task of upgrading it's military. The shear size of their army presents a major problem, combined with the worst technical base of the Nine Worlds. While the Chosen Men can be fully equipped with Impalers, Carapace, and Plasma munitions, the standard Guardsman will have to make do with less. Still head and shoulders above the Old Imperium though.
I'll post some Midgard pattern vehicles tomorrow.
Midgard Armed Forces in the Post Imperium era
As the Imperial Trust build itself up after the losses of Fjol IV and the discovery of the Sword of Surtur datacores, Midgard had a notable tendency to lag behind the rest of the planets in terms of equipment. This is due to the simple logistics of the matter. Midgard provides over 90% of the Trust's combined ground forces, and the cost of replacing it's full ToE is simply mind boggling to anyone not used to dealing with Adeptus Administratum sub-sector scale numbers. This was combined with the fact that Midgard had the least productive population per capita, and the traditional manufacturing center of Svartalfheim being focused on building up its own defences. In the name of resource conservation, Governer-General Aelfric Abingdon mandated his logistical officers focus on the cost effective equipment for use against the Trust's likely foes. Combined with the efforts of the Adeptus Mechanicus, with resulted in a series of improved vehicle and equipment patterns that manage to retain relatively close production costs to their predecessors.
It was quickly decided that while the Impaler was a noticeably superior weapon, the logistical benefits of the Advanced Laser weapons found aboard the Sword's datacores outweighed them. The Impaler's greater armor penetration capabilities would be wasted against the projected primary opposition of Trust, the Orks of the Gehenna-Subsector, the Tyranids of the Hive-Fleet splinter ---, and the corrupted Petty Imperiums. Going beyond basic weapons, improved models of both the Flamer and Melta series of weapons were also chosen for mass deployment. Being relatively low tech and inexpensive, they retained their place as the most common special issue weapons of the Imperial Guard.
Afterwords, the Procurement/Logistics Department move on to the rest of the soldier's standard issue kit. Fortunately enough, the vast majority of Flak Armor in use could be remanufactured to higher standards relatively easily. While the benefits came in the form of weight reduction and increased comfort, it was considered to be great significance for sustained moral in extended campaigns. Combined with the earlier discovery of legitimately appetizing form of MRE, Midgard infantry have a surprising amount of field longevity. Along with an improved company level communication system, Midgard's infantry are substantially more effective than they were previously.
With this settled, they then dealt with the matter of expendable munitions. In this, a great many improvements could be made. Melta munitions were outright trivial to implement, swiftly replacing virtually all forms of anti-armor projectile and warhead in productions lines. While it would take more than a century for exhaust previous stockpiles of ammunition, Midgard could count upon effective long ranged anti-vehicle firepower in short order. Plasma munitions were a much trickier matter, but nowhere near as bad as it would have been during the Old Imperium. Perhaps the greatest advantage of the Helheim pattern of Plasma munitions is the dramatic reduction of required quality of materials used, leveraging their one use and expendable nature to the fullest. The technical knowledge requirements are also much lower. Still substantially more expensive than normal Fragmentation munitions, Plasma munitions can still be fielded in significant numbers for high priority and special operations units.
Moving onto the realm of vehicles, the Department had several important questions to answer. The most important question was what level of technological sophistication were they going to commit too in the long run. This was ultimately determined by the projected time table of the replacement cycle. It was estimated that it would take slightly over a century and a half to completely replace the entire current inventory of Midgard, and that while during that time the education and technical level of the production base would improve, it would still lag behind those of other planets. With this fact established, it was decided that any major increments in technical sophistication would have to be limited to where they would be most effective. In the name of expediency, efforts began in developing more conventional and less complicated versions of the contemporary Avernus pattern of vehicles, sacrificing efficiency in the name of cost and ease of production.
Midgard's army remains the most technologically backwards of the founding members of the Imperial Trust in terms of proportion. This is mitigated by the fact that the elite and well equipped Chosen Men outnumber the conventional ground forces of Asgard, Alfheim, Jotunheim, Niflheim, and Musphelheim combined. Midgard's greatest strength (and weakness) remains it's size, with the shear number of bodies that can be thrown at a problem serving as a viable answer to most tactical and strategic problems. It is the anvil upon which Trust's enemies are forced upon, with the dreaded legions of Avernus serving as the hammer.
I'll post some Midgard pattern vehicles tomorrow.
Midgard Armed Forces in the Post Imperium era
As the Imperial Trust build itself up after the losses of Fjol IV and the discovery of the Sword of Surtur datacores, Midgard had a notable tendency to lag behind the rest of the planets in terms of equipment. This is due to the simple logistics of the matter. Midgard provides over 90% of the Trust's combined ground forces, and the cost of replacing it's full ToE is simply mind boggling to anyone not used to dealing with Adeptus Administratum sub-sector scale numbers. This was combined with the fact that Midgard had the least productive population per capita, and the traditional manufacturing center of Svartalfheim being focused on building up its own defences. In the name of resource conservation, Governer-General Aelfric Abingdon mandated his logistical officers focus on the cost effective equipment for use against the Trust's likely foes. Combined with the efforts of the Adeptus Mechanicus, with resulted in a series of improved vehicle and equipment patterns that manage to retain relatively close production costs to their predecessors.
It was quickly decided that while the Impaler was a noticeably superior weapon, the logistical benefits of the Advanced Laser weapons found aboard the Sword's datacores outweighed them. The Impaler's greater armor penetration capabilities would be wasted against the projected primary opposition of Trust, the Orks of the Gehenna-Subsector, the Tyranids of the Hive-Fleet splinter ---, and the corrupted Petty Imperiums. Going beyond basic weapons, improved models of both the Flamer and Melta series of weapons were also chosen for mass deployment. Being relatively low tech and inexpensive, they retained their place as the most common special issue weapons of the Imperial Guard.
Afterwords, the Procurement/Logistics Department move on to the rest of the soldier's standard issue kit. Fortunately enough, the vast majority of Flak Armor in use could be remanufactured to higher standards relatively easily. While the benefits came in the form of weight reduction and increased comfort, it was considered to be great significance for sustained moral in extended campaigns. Combined with the earlier discovery of legitimately appetizing form of MRE, Midgard infantry have a surprising amount of field longevity. Along with an improved company level communication system, Midgard's infantry are substantially more effective than they were previously.
With this settled, they then dealt with the matter of expendable munitions. In this, a great many improvements could be made. Melta munitions were outright trivial to implement, swiftly replacing virtually all forms of anti-armor projectile and warhead in productions lines. While it would take more than a century for exhaust previous stockpiles of ammunition, Midgard could count upon effective long ranged anti-vehicle firepower in short order. Plasma munitions were a much trickier matter, but nowhere near as bad as it would have been during the Old Imperium. Perhaps the greatest advantage of the Helheim pattern of Plasma munitions is the dramatic reduction of required quality of materials used, leveraging their one use and expendable nature to the fullest. The technical knowledge requirements are also much lower. Still substantially more expensive than normal Fragmentation munitions, Plasma munitions can still be fielded in significant numbers for high priority and special operations units.
Moving onto the realm of vehicles, the Department had several important questions to answer. The most important question was what level of technological sophistication were they going to commit too in the long run. This was ultimately determined by the projected time table of the replacement cycle. It was estimated that it would take slightly over a century and a half to completely replace the entire current inventory of Midgard, and that while during that time the education and technical level of the production base would improve, it would still lag behind those of other planets. With this fact established, it was decided that any major increments in technical sophistication would have to be limited to where they would be most effective. In the name of expediency, efforts began in developing more conventional and less complicated versions of the contemporary Avernus pattern of vehicles, sacrificing efficiency in the name of cost and ease of production.
Midgard's army remains the most technologically backwards of the founding members of the Imperial Trust in terms of proportion. This is mitigated by the fact that the elite and well equipped Chosen Men outnumber the conventional ground forces of Asgard, Alfheim, Jotunheim, Niflheim, and Musphelheim combined. Midgard's greatest strength (and weakness) remains it's size, with the shear number of bodies that can be thrown at a problem serving as a viable answer to most tactical and strategic problems. It is the anvil upon which Trust's enemies are forced upon, with the dreaded legions of Avernus serving as the hammer.
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Hmm... @durin
1: Will Midgard be interested in any of our older replaced equipment?
2: Will we have a chance to sell excess tugs to other systems that want some? (I figure the systems that want to build navies/shipyards may want 50 to 100 and we would sell them at a discount).
HanEmpire
Delicious
Correction, this should be Fjol IV.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. No, it is the stuff that they are repalcing
2. Yes, you will have that oppetunity once you have moved the graveyard
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Midgard and Svartalfheim
Guys?
I'm not sure if someone offered this guess before in this quest (SO. MANY. PAGES!) or if this has been already debunked or not, but with the knowledge that it seems that the crews of that DAOT - fleet managed to escape their destroyed fleet, how possible would it be Muspelheim's floating cities and the original colonists of that world are actually surviving, macgyvered escape pods/other ship components repurposed when their crews abandoned ship?
And the reason Muspelheim is so averse in opening their tech for the rest is because they have what could be considered an AI that keeps their databanks and history intact, explaining their easy acceptance of Xenos as they still have history recorded of the time humanity wasn't grimderp?
I'm not sure if someone offered this guess before in this quest (SO. MANY. PAGES!) or if this has been already debunked or not, but with the knowledge that it seems that the crews of that DAOT - fleet managed to escape their destroyed fleet, how possible would it be Muspelheim's floating cities and the original colonists of that world are actually surviving, macgyvered escape pods/other ship components repurposed when their crews abandoned ship?
And the reason Muspelheim is so averse in opening their tech for the rest is because they have what could be considered an AI that keeps their databanks and history intact, explaining their easy acceptance of Xenos as they still have history recorded of the time humanity wasn't grimderp?
HanEmpire
Delicious
The Mechanicus Old Guard issue is the downside of seeding so many techpriests into Midgard (and Alfheim to a far lesser extent), I suppose. Traditional thinkers outweigh Britton's reformers by orders of magnitude, and they own all the major industries on Midgard! The Trust will get screwed if they rebel.
You are forgetting Vanaheim. According to durin, it have more tech-priests than Avernus as well.
We already have the one that's meant for exploration. The other version is meant for military operations against actual invasions (or to use to invade, if we can get the Well of Urd repaired).
Extremely unlikely. Remember that we found an STC for "Muspelheim Grade Ceramite" - that tells us that they were already there well before the Men of Iron attack.
I do suspect that they got the datacores and survivors out of the Hyper-Carrier's stasis field room, though.
When you say they got the survivors... do you mean they were survivors there until very recently, or back in the distant past?
- Location
- Berkeley
Being blatant isn't a good idea, and odds are they'd get even more pissed if we started trampling over their personal fiefs, let alone essentially killing them off. It's not like they're too stupid to know that Avernus is dangerous as fuck.
Still, if we find any prominent opponents of the changes who are viewed as being rational enough to convert, we might want to set up something like an exchange program to bring them to the center of the admech in the Imperial Trust and let their opinions be heard--coincidentally showing off how much the admech has profited in the Trust as well as exposing them to personal attention from our diplomancers.
Again, from what Durin's said, right now we're not dealing with enemies of the state. Hell, we're not even dealing with people engaged in protests/riots. We're dealing with a bunch of people that if we continue to do our own thing will eventually reach the point where anything from protests/riots to open rebellion is plausible.
Still, if we find any prominent opponents of the changes who are viewed as being rational enough to convert, we might want to set up something like an exchange program to bring them to the center of the admech in the Imperial Trust and let their opinions be heard--coincidentally showing off how much the admech has profited in the Trust as well as exposing them to personal attention from our diplomancers.
Again, from what Durin's said, right now we're not dealing with enemies of the state. Hell, we're not even dealing with people engaged in protests/riots. We're dealing with a bunch of people that if we continue to do our own thing will eventually reach the point where anything from protests/riots to open rebellion is plausible.
There's a canon omake where some of the people from the battle put themselves in a stasis field with the datacores of the ship in the hopes of survival. The study of the hyper-carrier indicated that the field stopped working five to six thousand years ago, but the room was empty of everything including the stasis field equipment, and since everything was wrecked and none of the ships were operational enough to enter the Warp it is likely someone came along and took them. Since Muspelheim already had DAoT tech it seems likely they were the ones who did so.
OK... but when?
...five to six thousand years ago.
Just some project ideas...
1. Saint Lin takes a look at Mechanicus rituals after he's done with the Imperial ones. This would likely increase unrest, but decrease the risk of corruption.
2. Saint Lin talks with high ranking members of the conservative factions to convince them of the necessity of the reforms (and the fact that the Emperor/Avatar of the Omnissiah actually wanted these types of reforms) using his Aura of Truth, and possibly find out some of them are corrupted by the Abomination in the first place. This would likely reduce unrest, and possibly discredit the conservatives if many high ranking members were discovered to be corrupted.
3. Some method of increasing our AM production before we can expand our Forge Cities again. Forge Complexes in every city, orbital Forges, or some other such thing. Not sure how much good it would do, but AM is gonna be tight soon so some way to relieve the pressure year over year would be good.
4. Start looking among the Mechanicus menials for suitable candidates for Knowledge Implantation Chair mechanic training. Promote those who show promise and receptiveness to Britton's reform to tech-priests. This would both increase Britton's support and hopefully reduce maintenance costs. Though this might be happening automatically anyways since more tech-priests are needed anyways.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
We do have a way of doing that... sorta.
Brittons forges option if we crit it gets us a permanent buff to AM and EM production, it just needs to crit.
I suppose we could have an option for him to look for a way to do it, but well... balance.
ArchAIngel
Sorcerer Supreme.
- Location
- Right behind you.
Hmm.
@durin a few questions on cost. How much is it to make:
1: a lasgun.
2: a hotshot lasgun.
3: a bolter.
4: a heavy bolter.
5: a Impaler Carbine.
6: a Impaler Rifle
7: a Heavy Impaler.
8: a suit of Flak armor.
9: a suit of Carapace armor.
10: a suit of Trooper armor.
11: a suit of Astares power armor.
12: a suit of elite power armor.
Trying some math on efficiency of killing versus costs.
@durin a few questions on cost. How much is it to make:
1: a lasgun.
2: a hotshot lasgun.
3: a bolter.
4: a heavy bolter.
5: a Impaler Carbine.
6: a Impaler Rifle
7: a Heavy Impaler.
8: a suit of Flak armor.
9: a suit of Carapace armor.
10: a suit of Trooper armor.
11: a suit of Astares power armor.
12: a suit of elite power armor.
Trying some math on efficiency of killing versus costs.