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@Elder Haman: Your plan looks nice but I'll be honest, the scale is so much bigger than what we've been dealing with so far that I don't have a concrete reference to make judgements.
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
yes they will be
@durin, looking at the prices, I've come to the conclusion that ships of the same hull-pattern have the same cost. The Battle Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, or Grand Cruisers each only have one hull-pattern, and thus each would cost the same as any other of it's size class. The Legate would have a different cost than a Saint or a Martyr, as each of them are different hull-patterns. The Command Ships are too big to fit under this paradigm.
Here's my list of hull-patterns. Name given to the most general configuration
Here's my list of hull-patterns. Name given to the most general configuration
- Escorts
- Soldier
- Privateer
- Squire
- Light Cruisers
- Buccaneer
- Youxia
- Defense Cruiser
- Castle
- Cruisers
- Warrior
- Corsair
- Knight
- Battle Cruiser
- Maurader
- Heavy Cruiser
- Chevalier
- Grand Cruiser
- Gurka
- Battleship
- Legate
- Berzerker
- Mongol
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
given that Avernus has the highest quality land forces and not the bet fleet it would make more sense to invest in army over fleet and let Vanaheim invest in fleet
the issue of trying to become a major contributor to every part of combat is that you end up being a jack of all trades master of none
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Pretty much yes, however Carriers are a bit cheaper then other ships of their pattern and those with exotic weapons are a bit more expensive
Right, and the Stealth ships are their own thing entirely.
Ok, new plan!
[X] Plan Minimum Fleet
Buy from Vanaheim
-Einherjar (64,352 Cr)
-Alexander (126,616.6 Cr) - Tithe this one to the Trust
-30 MD Monk (10,167 Cr)
-7 HD Praetorian (2620.8 Cr)
-25 HD Warrior (9,385 Cr)
-13 MI Praetorian (4,421.3 Cr)
-25 MI Warrior (8,502.5 Cr)
-400 MI Soldier (8,600 Cr)
-200 MI Page (10,920 Cr)
-200 MI Squire (10,920 Cr)
-1000 Tugs (15000 Cr)
271,505.2 Cr Total
Sell to Vanaheim
-Genghis (79,138 Cr)
-10 MD Praetorian (8,430.8 Cr)
-57 MD Warrior (12,044 Cr)
-130 MD Monk (6,942 Cr)
-21 HD Praetorian (7,064.4 Cr)
-15 HD Warrior (5046 Cr)
-80 HD Monk (8,544 Cr)
-625 MI Squire (30,000 Cr)
-625 MI Page (30,000 Cr)
-1220 MI Squire (57,218 Cr)
-30 MI Monk (6,516 Cr)
-8 FI Squire (795 Cr)
-7 FI Page (426.3 Cr)
-15 FI Soldier (487.2 Cr)
-2 FI Monk (483.4 Cr)
253,135.1 Cr Total
Vanaheim Prior Debt: 15,508.96 Cr owed to Avernus
Vanaheim Transaction Total: 18,370.1 Cr owed to Vanaheim
Vanaheim End Total: 2,861.14 Cr owed to Vanaheim
Buy from Niflheim
-391,000 Advanced Material per year (10674.3 Cr)
-4,000 Exotic Material per year (5920 Cr)
16,594.3 Cr total
Sell to Niflheim
-200,000,000 Thrones per year (900 Cr)
-200,000,000 Material per year (8440 Cr)
-200,000,000 Metal per year (6260 Cr)
15,600 Cr total
Niflheim End Total: 994.3 Credits owed to Niflheim
Plan Reasoning:
1. Ok, since durin pointed out the dangers of over-investing in our fleet I'm going with Parnell's minimum recommendation instead of his maximum. 400 Escorts with half being the cheap generalist, a quarter being dedicated defense escorts, and a quarter being hunters that can kick the crap out capital ships with their powerful lances (and should be able to cripple Escorts with the same). 25 Cruisers again being the generalists, 10 being the brute types that do well in close range, and 15 light cruisers that are carriers. Plus the Einherjar Command Battleship, being a nice big heavily armored thing that should be able to shield our troop transports on the path to any planet.
2. I removed the Vajra from the sale to Vanaheim, which ends up with us being slightly in debt. Given Vanaheim won't be able to get to all the Command ships at once, they can work on the others for the next 90 years and we can decide what we want to do with it by then, whether to keep it or to give away the Gravitic-Array ship once we know what that does.
3. Buying as much AM and EM as we can afford from Niflheim, going into debt. Worth it given we are going to be spending a lot of AM and EM in the near future.
4. For convenience, I've provided the upkeep numbers in the spoiler above. We won't get the Einherjar for 30 years, so knowing what the upkeep is without it is helpful.
[X] Plan Minimum Fleet
Buy from Vanaheim
-Einherjar (64,352 Cr)
-Alexander (126,616.6 Cr) - Tithe this one to the Trust
-30 MD Monk (10,167 Cr)
-7 HD Praetorian (2620.8 Cr)
-25 HD Warrior (9,385 Cr)
-13 MI Praetorian (4,421.3 Cr)
-25 MI Warrior (8,502.5 Cr)
-400 MI Soldier (8,600 Cr)
-200 MI Page (10,920 Cr)
-200 MI Squire (10,920 Cr)
-1000 Tugs (15000 Cr)
271,505.2 Cr Total
Sell to Vanaheim
-Genghis (79,138 Cr)
-10 MD Praetorian (8,430.8 Cr)
-57 MD Warrior (12,044 Cr)
-130 MD Monk (6,942 Cr)
-21 HD Praetorian (7,064.4 Cr)
-15 HD Warrior (5046 Cr)
-80 HD Monk (8,544 Cr)
-625 MI Squire (30,000 Cr)
-625 MI Page (30,000 Cr)
-1220 MI Squire (57,218 Cr)
-30 MI Monk (6,516 Cr)
-8 FI Squire (795 Cr)
-7 FI Page (426.3 Cr)
-15 FI Soldier (487.2 Cr)
-2 FI Monk (483.4 Cr)
253,135.1 Cr Total
Vanaheim Prior Debt: 15,508.96 Cr owed to Avernus
Vanaheim Transaction Total: 18,370.1 Cr owed to Vanaheim
Vanaheim End Total: 2,861.14 Cr owed to Vanaheim
Avernus Fleet Gains And Annual Upkeep
200 Soldier Escort Destroyers (-32,000,000 Thrones, -6,000,000 Material, -3,000,000 Promethium, -5,000 AM, -80 EM)
100 Page Escort Frigates (-24,000,000 Thrones, -4,500,000 Material, -2,500,000 Promethium, -4,000 AM, -50 EM)
100 Squire Escort Frigates (-24,000,000 Thrones, -4,500,000 Material, -2,500,000 Promethium, -4,000 AM, -50 EM)
15 Monk Escort Cruisers (-12,000,000 Thrones, -1,800,000 Material, -1,200,000 Promethium, -1,500 AM, -15 EM)
25 Warrior Cruisers (-30,000,000 Thrones, -9,500,000 Material, -2,750,000 Promethium, -5,500 AM, -50 EM)
10 Praetorian Cruisers (-12,000,000 Thrones, -3,800,000 Material, -1,100,000 Promethium, -2,200 AM, -20 EM)
1 Einherjar Command Battleship (-92,000,000 Thrones, -4,000,000 Material, -5,500,000 Promethium, -82,000 AM, -540 EM)
Total Upkeep With Einherjar: -134,000,000 Thrones, -30,100,000 Material, -13,050,000 Promethium, -22,200 AM, -265 EM
Total Upkeep Without Einherjar: -226,000,000 Thrones, -34,100,000 Materia, -18,550,000 Promethium, -104,200 AM, -805 EM
Imperial Trust Gains
Same, except Alexander gained instead of Einherjar
200 Soldier Escort Destroyers (-32,000,000 Thrones, -6,000,000 Material, -3,000,000 Promethium, -5,000 AM, -80 EM)
100 Page Escort Frigates (-24,000,000 Thrones, -4,500,000 Material, -2,500,000 Promethium, -4,000 AM, -50 EM)
100 Squire Escort Frigates (-24,000,000 Thrones, -4,500,000 Material, -2,500,000 Promethium, -4,000 AM, -50 EM)
15 Monk Escort Cruisers (-12,000,000 Thrones, -1,800,000 Material, -1,200,000 Promethium, -1,500 AM, -15 EM)
25 Warrior Cruisers (-30,000,000 Thrones, -9,500,000 Material, -2,750,000 Promethium, -5,500 AM, -50 EM)
10 Praetorian Cruisers (-12,000,000 Thrones, -3,800,000 Material, -1,100,000 Promethium, -2,200 AM, -20 EM)
1 Einherjar Command Battleship (-92,000,000 Thrones, -4,000,000 Material, -5,500,000 Promethium, -82,000 AM, -540 EM)
Total Upkeep With Einherjar: -134,000,000 Thrones, -30,100,000 Material, -13,050,000 Promethium, -22,200 AM, -265 EM
Total Upkeep Without Einherjar: -226,000,000 Thrones, -34,100,000 Materia, -18,550,000 Promethium, -104,200 AM, -805 EM
Imperial Trust Gains
Same, except Alexander gained instead of Einherjar
Buy from Niflheim
-391,000 Advanced Material per year (10674.3 Cr)
-4,000 Exotic Material per year (5920 Cr)
16,594.3 Cr total
Sell to Niflheim
-200,000,000 Thrones per year (900 Cr)
-200,000,000 Material per year (8440 Cr)
-200,000,000 Metal per year (6260 Cr)
15,600 Cr total
Niflheim End Total: 994.3 Credits owed to Niflheim
Plan Reasoning:
1. Ok, since durin pointed out the dangers of over-investing in our fleet I'm going with Parnell's minimum recommendation instead of his maximum. 400 Escorts with half being the cheap generalist, a quarter being dedicated defense escorts, and a quarter being hunters that can kick the crap out capital ships with their powerful lances (and should be able to cripple Escorts with the same). 25 Cruisers again being the generalists, 10 being the brute types that do well in close range, and 15 light cruisers that are carriers. Plus the Einherjar Command Battleship, being a nice big heavily armored thing that should be able to shield our troop transports on the path to any planet.
2. I removed the Vajra from the sale to Vanaheim, which ends up with us being slightly in debt. Given Vanaheim won't be able to get to all the Command ships at once, they can work on the others for the next 90 years and we can decide what we want to do with it by then, whether to keep it or to give away the Gravitic-Array ship once we know what that does.
3. Buying as much AM and EM as we can afford from Niflheim, going into debt. Worth it given we are going to be spending a lot of AM and EM in the near future.
4. For convenience, I've provided the upkeep numbers in the spoiler above. We won't get the Einherjar for 30 years, so knowing what the upkeep is without it is helpful.
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@durin, what classes are Trust most interested in?
The issue is to midigate another bottle-up problem like the last time Vanaheim got cut off.
The issue is to midigate another bottle-up problem like the last time Vanaheim got cut off.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
or have a single specialty fleet that is good at one thing
Planetary assault, most likely, given our own troops. Something good at ensuring the troops get to the ground and are able to kick ass while supporting them. That would be good for either defending an ally or attacking an enemy.
- Location
- not telling
Thanks Enjou. Based on that I'm leaning towards a modified version of how ship squadrons are in The Lost Fleet series. So the heavy ships would be in Divisions of 2-4. Battleships of mixed types in a 2-3 ship Division and Grand Cruisers in a 3-4 ship Division again mixed. Lets go with a 7 ship Squadron for all the Cruisers grouped into types. Each Squadron would be based around a type (Defense, Armored, Raider, Cheap) then have 4 generalist and 1 of each specialist of that type. Heavy and Battle cruisers lack the sheer number of classes of the lower ships do so each Squadron would have all the Heavy or Battle Cruisers classes in it but keep the generalist /specialist layout. Escorts I'm going to have to think on a bit. I do say we should cut the Stealth ships out of the line up into their own group. Give me a few hours to get home then I'll put up a example fleet form the Trust Navy and one for us.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
all of them
the main reason for the bottle neck was that Vanaheim was the only major fleet base, which has changed, and that most of the Trust Fleet was in she shipyards being repaired, another situation like that is unlikely to happen
Okay, updated the Comparison Post with the changes to increase Advanced Material from Nilfheim, and to sell the Alexander instead of the Vajra.
Will now add the Minimum Fleet to the Comparison post.
Will now add the Minimum Fleet to the Comparison post.
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Ok.
I have some questions about the general configuration of the ships. Do they have armored prows like current imperial ships for not? Which have prow and dorsal weapons? How many wings doing each carrier have?
I think the Knights and Corsairs have prow lances. I don't see if the Warriors have a prow mount.
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- Location
- United States
A point of note, ADC's are not Warp-capable, which would limit this defensive core to operations in the Helheim system. That's not necessarily bad, but it's strategically very sub-optimal. Avernus is already a hard target, further reinforcing it is good but not necessarily the best expense of resources, especially when Warp-capable ships can contribute just fine to Avernus' defense.
Something to note about Grand Cruisers, in modern terms they're probably better considered as Dreadnaughts, the precursors to "modern" (technically obsolete now) Battleships. Grand Cruisers are really too damn big to be considered a Cruiser, but they're also too small or wimpy to be proper Battleships. If you go back to Battlefleet Gothic terms, as I recall Cruisers generally had 6-8 Hull Points, Battlecruisers had the same but better armor/weapons/equipment packages, and Grand Cruisers came in at 10 Hull Points while Battleships had a whopping 12.
It's not a perfect analogy, Grand Cruisers (especially Crusade-era ones like Chaos uses) are nasty customers and pretty fast for their size, as well as generally focusing on lances and long-range batteries, which doesn't fit the Dreadnaught paradigm, but it's a good comparison.
I think it's a very nice wishlist, but the odds of being able to afford it all are quite low and we'll need a lot of time to build up the manpower and material to run it. Especially after reading the last few sections, I'd suggest focusing on a close-assualt/planetary assault force with small generalist core. Planetary assault is close enough to direct battle line engagements that Helheim Void can still contribute to fleet engagements, it will just rely on allied forces to provide the majority of maneuver and screening forces.
With that in mind, after this initial purchase to establish a generalist core it may be wise to focus surveys and build-up on the armored cruiser classes.
Updated Comparision Post to include Minimum Fleet
I think something important to note is that durin made that comment after seeing my endgame wishlist of half a dozen battleships, 100 or so Grand/Heavy/Battle Cruisers, hundreds fo Cruisers and thousands of Escorts.
I think we can afford to get the upper limit of 600 Escorts easily, though I agree we should stay at the lower end of 50 Cruisers.
Agreed.
I think something important to note is that durin made that comment after seeing my endgame wishlist of half a dozen battleships, 100 or so Grand/Heavy/Battle Cruisers, hundreds fo Cruisers and thousands of Escorts.
I think we can afford to get the upper limit of 600 Escorts easily, though I agree we should stay at the lower end of 50 Cruisers.
Agreed.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
they general are approximately wedge shaped, lack the modern armored prow, generally have broadsides that can fire both forward and to one side though dorsal weapons are not uncommon
Monks or Adherents can have 6 attack craft wings
Cathedrals, Acolytes, and Bishops can have 24 attack craft wings
Marauders can have 18 attack craft wings
Disciples can have 54 attack craft wings
Popes can have 96 attack craft wings
Legates can have 60 attack craft wings
Saints and Martyrs can have 150 attack craft wings
what about Templar?
So they look similar to Avenger Grand Cruisers, with many having bow weapons, nice.
The Wedge is one of the default sci-fi ship shapes for a reason. The ISD just happens to be a very poor example.
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- Location
- The Void
Oh, @durin, one thing to possibly give us an option for next turn for building ships since we're seeming like we're gonna sell all our currently surveyed ships and will need something to do - Troop Transports. The size of our army has increased by quite a bit since we last built some, and we've only got seven. What's more, it's an area where the Trust has fallen behind and Vanaheim isn't seeming to want to meet the demand right now due to concentrating on warships. During the assault on Fjol IV the Trust had to use massive amounts of
Modernized Troop Transports with better armor, void shielding, engines, point defenses, and reactors that don't explode and kill every person being transported or destroying every piece of valuable equipment on board would probably be something there'd be a good demand for. We don't even need a new ship design, just use the new components and you're probably good to go.
Worlds that would want these aside from us:
Asgard - Knights are much safer to transport in these.
Svartalfheim - They have made a huge army of Power Armored dudes. As such, they'll likely be helping their neighbors out during invasions.
Midgard and/or The Imperial Navy - The Imperial Guard and the largest number of troops in the polity is here. So increasing the number of transports would be helpful. Though these might be gained through tithes, as they may be counted as warships of a sort.
Vanaheim - They have a lot of Drop Infantry and Aircraft, but no Troop Transports with which to bring them to a world under attack. Sure, they could build them themselves, but they're busy.
Modernized Troop Transports with better armor, void shielding, engines, point defenses, and reactors that don't explode and kill every person being transported or destroying every piece of valuable equipment on board would probably be something there'd be a good demand for. We don't even need a new ship design, just use the new components and you're probably good to go.
Worlds that would want these aside from us:
Asgard - Knights are much safer to transport in these.
Svartalfheim - They have made a huge army of Power Armored dudes. As such, they'll likely be helping their neighbors out during invasions.
Midgard and/or The Imperial Navy - The Imperial Guard and the largest number of troops in the polity is here. So increasing the number of transports would be helpful. Though these might be gained through tithes, as they may be counted as warships of a sort.
Vanaheim - They have a lot of Drop Infantry and Aircraft, but no Troop Transports with which to bring them to a world under attack. Sure, they could build them themselves, but they're busy.
Reposting this, as I think it's now ready for people to vote for:
Comparison of Plans Post:
Plan Big Repair Deal
Plan Balanced Trade
Plan Max Soldier Trade
Plan Max Resources Trade
Plan OmegaS 2
Plan Minimum Fleet
Comparison of Plans Post:
Plan Big Repair Deal
Plan Balanced Trade
Plan Max Soldier Trade
Plan Max Resources Trade
Plan OmegaS 2
Plan Minimum Fleet
Big Repair Deal gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 19 Cruisers (12 Warrior, 7 Praetorian), 16 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 600 Escorts (200 Solider, 200 Squire, 200 Page).
Balanced Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 550 Escorts (200 Solider, 200 Squire, 150 Page).
Max Soldier Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 600 Escorts (400 Solider, 100 Squire, 100 Page).
Max Resources Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 400 Escorts (250 Squire, 150 Page).
OmegaS 2 gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 19 Cruisers (12 Warrior, 7 Praetorian), 25 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 500 Escorts (200 Soldier, 150 Squire, 150 Page).
Minimum Fleet gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 35 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 10 Praetorian), 15 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 400 Escorts (200 Soldier, 100 Squire, 100 Page).
Admiral Parnell's opinion on the max we should get (to keep from going too high in maintenance costs):
Significant discussion of eventual desired fleet configurations:
Capability Discussion Without Numbers
Rough Numbers?
Balanced Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 550 Escorts (200 Solider, 200 Squire, 150 Page).
Max Soldier Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 600 Escorts (400 Solider, 100 Squire, 100 Page).
Max Resources Trade gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 30 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 5 Praetorian), 20 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 400 Escorts (250 Squire, 150 Page).
OmegaS 2 gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 19 Cruisers (12 Warrior, 7 Praetorian), 25 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 500 Escorts (200 Soldier, 150 Squire, 150 Page).
Minimum Fleet gives us: 1 Command Battleship (Brute), 35 Cruisers (25 Warrior, 10 Praetorian), 15 Light Cruisers (Carriers), and 400 Escorts (200 Soldier, 100 Squire, 100 Page).
Admiral Parnell's opinion on the max we should get (to keep from going too high in maintenance costs):
Significant discussion of eventual desired fleet configurations:
Capability Discussion Without Numbers
Rough Numbers?
Big Repair Deal: Vanaheim owes 4,050.06 Cr to Avernus, and we sold the Vajra Class ship to Vanaheim.
Balanced Trade: Avernus Owes Vanaheim 46,856.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Max Soldier Trade: Avernus Owes Vanaheim 43,436.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Max Resources Trade: Avernus owes Vanaheim 29,756.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
OmegaS 2: Vanaheim owes Avernus 17,105.96 Credits, and we sold the Vajra Class ship
Minimum Fleet: Avernus owes Vanaheim 2,861.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Notes:
Vajra class Battleship is valued at 42,483.5 Credits by Vanaheim
Vanaheim is willing to let us go into debt to them for up to 50,000 Credits.
Balanced Trade: Avernus Owes Vanaheim 46,856.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Max Soldier Trade: Avernus Owes Vanaheim 43,436.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Max Resources Trade: Avernus owes Vanaheim 29,756.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
OmegaS 2: Vanaheim owes Avernus 17,105.96 Credits, and we sold the Vajra Class ship
Minimum Fleet: Avernus owes Vanaheim 2,861.14 Credits, and we still have the Vajra Class Command Battleship.
Notes:
Vajra class Battleship is valued at 42,483.5 Credits by Vanaheim
Vanaheim is willing to let us go into debt to them for up to 50,000 Credits.
Big Repair Deal and OmegaS 2:
+ 354,000 Advanced Material per year
+ 4,000 Exotic Material per year
- 197,000,000 Thrones per year
- 200,000,000 Material per year
- 200,000,000 Metal per year
Niflheim owes Avernus: 2.3 Cr
All other plans:
+ 391,000 Advanced Material per year
+ 4,000 Exotic Material per year
- 200,000,000 Thrones per year
- 200,000,000 Material per year
- 200,000,000 Metal per year
Avernus owes Nilfheim: 994.3 Credits
Minor differences.
+ 354,000 Advanced Material per year
+ 4,000 Exotic Material per year
- 197,000,000 Thrones per year
- 200,000,000 Material per year
- 200,000,000 Metal per year
Niflheim owes Avernus: 2.3 Cr
All other plans:
+ 391,000 Advanced Material per year
+ 4,000 Exotic Material per year
- 200,000,000 Thrones per year
- 200,000,000 Material per year
- 200,000,000 Metal per year
Avernus owes Nilfheim: 994.3 Credits
Minor differences.