The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Elder Haman]

Between those alternatives, I would keep the current course of action, since durin confimed that at least one datacore was in the command ships...

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Do you have a quote, because I don't remember durin confirming it. Rather Tranth IC told us to try researching them.

Even if that is the case, it might be worth it to do the research to get started on the DAoT ships, because otherwise it might take 9+ more years before we find a datacore (and it's probably damaged, requiring more research time).

We only need to do two action and then we can start repairing Escort Destroyers:

Detailed Survey (Escort Destroyer)- The Escort Destroyer is an all rounder design, with a mix of fire-power, speed and defences. This class is generally armed with long range weapon batteries and was most likely the cheap, expendable escort that was tasked with engaging enemy escorts. There are fifteen intact ships of this class, one thousand, six hundred and twenty mostly intact, three thousand half destroyed and six thousand nine hundred mostly destroyed. From what Tranth can determine these ships do not have any really new technologies.

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Since we have 1,635 intact or mostly intact I'm sure our shipyards can keep busy repairing them until we have searched all the remaining Command Battleships.

Let's see... 6 slip a shipyard, x6 shipyards = 36 slips... assuming we can fix a mostly intact escort in one year (reasonable assumption since a brand new one can be built in 3 years), that's up to 300+ escorts that we could get repaired while we are still searching for a datacore.

I think that's a significant enough number to justify doing the research now.

 

[Elder Haman]

@durin Since we have a large shipyard now, doesn't that mean we can build two small shipyards in 9 years as a single action instead of one small shipyard every 5 years?

If so that will change my plan slightly, and probably @Enjou too. (We can use an extra expedite on void actions).

Nevermind, the datasheets were out of date, Enjou has given me correct numbers.

 

[Elder Haman]

@durin

Midgard has traditionally manufactured large amounts of weaponry for the guard. That's been their traditional trade good. Since we've shared most technology, shouldn't Midgard have updated their manufacturing to producing at least the basic military goods by now? I mean, maybe the high tech stuff still needs to be built on Avernus or Svartalfheim, but they should be able to build Impalers and other such basic items right?

Can we do a trade with Midgard for all those various basic equipment needs and get a speed up bonus to our Military Expansion action?

 

[Enjou]

@durin Since we have a large shipyard now, doesn't that mean we can build two small shipyards in 9 years as a single action instead of one small shipyard every 5 years?

If so that will change my plan a bit, and probably @Enjou too. (We can use an extra expedite).

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We've had a Large Shipyard for decades - what we need to build two Small Shipyards at once with a single action (which is an eight year action) is two Large Shipyards. Once we have four Small, we'll need to take an action to merge them into a Large, and we actually want five so that we don't cannibalize the Constant Merchantmen Production.

We currently have:
1x Large Shipyard
2x Small Shipyard (open)
1x Small Shipyard (Merchantmen)
1x Small Shipyard (in construction 2/4)

So building at least one more shipyard this turn will get us to the four we need, but we should also start on an additional one or two so that by the time the Large Shipyard is ready we already have 2 out of 4 of the Small Shipyards we need for the next Large Shipyard so we can continue working on getting up to Huge.

 

[Enjou]

@durin

Midgard has traditionally manufactured large amounts of weaponry for the guard. That's been their traditional trade good. Since we've shared most technology, shouldn't Midgard have updated their manufacturing to producing at least the basic military goods by now? I mean, maybe the high tech stuff still needs to be built on Avernus or Svartalfheim, but they should be able to build Impalers and other such basic items right?

Can we do a trade with Midgard for all those various basic equipment needs and get a speed up bonus to our Military Expansion action?

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Midgard bought the Impaler STC from us at one point, IIRC, so they're definitely manufacturing them. Honestly I don't think them helping with manufacture is going to help with our expansion time at all - the main time consumer is going to be recruiting and training so many regiments. We're not quite doubling our numbers, but we are recruiting more than half in most instances so it's basically like the last recruiting action that took nine years.

 

[Elder Haman]

Midgard bought the Impaler STC from us at one point, IIRC, so they're definitely manufacturing them. Honestly I don't think them helping with manufacture is going to help with our expansion time at all - the main time consumer is going to be recruiting and training so many regiments. We're not quite doubling our numbers, but we are recruiting more than half in most instances so it's basically like the last recruiting action that took nine years.

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But if we can get the equipment built and sent to us faster and earlier in the action then that should mean we can speed up the recruitment process.

Because normally what happens is we manufacture 25% of the needed equipment, recruit 25% of the needed numbers and begin training them. Then when the next 25% of equipment is done recruit the next 25%, and so on, until the last batch of recruits finish training.

If we can purchase the goods from Midgard, then we get say 50% of the equipment right away, and recruit 50% of the needed numbers and begin their training, then the final 50% of the equipment, and then we recruit the final 50% of the new troops.

That should speed up our recruitment process at least a little. (Maybe not those exact numbers which suggest a 50% faster process, but surely we can shave a year or two off the 13 year length of time).

@durin What do you say?

 

[Elder Haman]

We've had a Large Shipyard for decades - what we need to build two Small Shipyards at once with a single action (which is an eight year action) is two Large Shipyards. Once we have four Small, we'll need to take an action to merge them into a Large, and we actually want five so that we don't cannibalize the Constant Merchantmen Production.

We currently have:
1x Large Shipyard
2x Small Shipyard (open)
1x Small Shipyard (Merchantmen)
1x Small Shipyard (in construction 2/4)

So building at least one more shipyard this turn will get us to the four we need, but we should also start on an additional one or two so that by the time the Large Shipyard is ready we already have 2 out of 4 of the Small Shipyards we need for the next Large Shipyard so we can continue working on getting up to Huge.

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Ah... gotcha, the datasheet had not been updated recently so I got confused when I saw we had just 1 large and 1 small shipyard.

So next turn we should be able to join the small shipyard. Okay.

 

[kellanved]

Reading through the Avernus pattern omakes, how many items have Tranth's name on them? Probably all of them... "Tranth-MKII Recaff Machine" , "Tranth 1b High Energy Plasma Containment Torus ", "Tranth MREs"

 

[Fanhunter696]

Do you have a quote, because I don't remember durin confirming it. Rather Tranth IC told us to try researching them.

Even if that is the case, it might be worth it to do the research to get started on the DAoT ships, because otherwise it might take 9+ more years before we find a datacore (and it's probably damaged, requiring more research time).

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Here it is...

no, i have already decided which battleships have an intact data core

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If durin has already decided which ship has an intact datacore, logically there will be an intact datacore...

 

[Elder Haman]

Here it is...


If durin has already decided which ship has an intact datacore, logically there will be an intact datacore...

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Not so. Because durin could have determined that there are zero intact datacores.

(My guess is that there is a damaged datacore somewhere, but it's just a guess).

 

[DarknessSmiles]

[X] Plan Enjou T65

@Enjou with regards to the order for investigating ships and archaeotech, the possibility of getting a datacore means that researching anything that we may get in that datacore is potentially wasted time. also, where is it mentioned that any of our advisers want more escorts asap? im not saying they are not needed, but the only thing i can see about advice on priority are the following:

Parnell wants more defense cruisers asap
Tranth wants to focus on trying to find a datacore

so i think that we should have Tranth focus on examining the macro-caps

 

[Elder Haman]

Reading through the Avernus pattern omakes, how many items have Tranth's name on them? Probably all of them... "Tranth-MKII Recaff Machine" , "Tranth 1b High Energy Plasma Containment Torus ", "Tranth MREs"

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"Tranth" has probably already become slang for "high quality"

Solider One: Is that pub really Tranth level?
Solider Two: The beer is terrible, but the food is totally Tranth.
Solider Three: I prefer the pub on second street. I know the food is only so so, but they got Tranth barmaids.

 

[Elder Haman]

with regards to the order for investigating ships and archaeotech, the possibility of getting a datacore means that researching anything that we may get in that datacore is potentially wasted time. also, where is it mentioned that any of our advisers want more escorts asap? im not saying they are not needed, but the only thing i can see about advice on priority are the following:

Parnell wants more defense cruisers asap
Tranth wants to focus on trying to find a datacore

so i think that we should have Tranth focus on examining the macro-caps

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Freya pointed out that we are horribly short on Escorts. Currently we do not have enough escorts to properly screen the Avernite capital ships when outside the Avernite system (Inside the Avernite system we have defense monitors - which allows us to screen, but also are slower than our capital ships so reduces our ability to maneuver - we had this exact problem when the Orks invaded).

Freya is currently to busy to start another project but still discuses her plans with you. She mentions that she hopes to be able to concentrate totally on building up shipyards from now until it is possible to repair some of the Dark Age Escorts, after which building them will be the focus.

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[Void Stalker]

Getting the intact data core should be our first priority for tranth. Research comes after we find it I think.

For the expansion option what happened with recruiting is it was done in waves so we will have multiple batches of recruits going through the process. So we should get the first pdf after a few years with additional groups every few years of the action

 

[DarknessSmiles]

Freya pointed out that we are horribly short on Escorts. Currently we do not have enough escorts to properly screen the Avernite capital ships when outside the Avernite system (Inside the Avernite system we have defense monitors - which allows us to screen, but also are slower than our capital ships so reduces our ability to maneuver - we had this exact problem when the Orks invaded).

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fair enough. im still hesitant to take actions that involve potential waste

 

[Elder Haman]

fair enough. im still hesitant to take actions that involve potential waste

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True, which is why I have it as a conditional decision giving us time to see if there is an intact datacore on the Hyper Carrier.

That's probably the most likely place for there to be one.

However, even if there is a datacore somewhere else, we lose four year of Explorator actions, which hurts, but we gain possibly as many as 300+ escorts in ten years instead of twenty years from now.

If we get attacked, those numbers could make a big difference. Not only a big difference if Avernus gets attacked, but if somewhere else gets attacked. As the Defense Crusiers can't help any other system, but our escorts can.

 

[Enjou]

But if we can get the equipment built and sent to us faster and earlier in the action then that should mean we can speed up the recruitment process.

Because normally what happens is we manufacture 25% of the needed equipment, recruit 25% of the needed numbers and begin training them. Then when the next 25% of equipment is done recruit the next 25%, and so on, until the last batch of recruits finish training.

If we can purchase the goods from Midgard, then we get say 50% of the equipment right away, and recruit 50% of the needed numbers and begin their training, then the final 50% of the equipment, and then we recruit the final 50% of the new troops.

That should speed up our recruitment process at least a little. (Maybe not those exact numbers which suggest a 50% faster process, but surely we can shave a year or two off the 13 year length of time).

@durin What do you say?

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You misunderstand - what I'm saying is that I don't think that equipment is our bottleneck. Like, at all. Our factories could probably produce enough goods to equip all of the soldiers in a few years. Also remember that our militia is kitted out with most of the same stuff that the military proper is, aside from the high end stuff., so they already have most of their equipment.

Our actual bottleneck is the fact that we can't train too many regiments at once. We're training tens of millions of people to a ludicrously high standard of skill, and we can only train so many at one time because we only have so many instructors and training facilities.

Freya pointed out that we are horribly short on Escorts. Currently we do not have enough escorts to properly screen the Avernite capital ships when outside the Avernite system (Inside the Avernite system we have defense monitors - which allows us to screen, but also are slower than our capital ships so reduces our ability to maneuver - we had this exact problem when the Orks invaded).

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Given we're going to do a trade deal with Vanaheim I think they can build us some Escorts as a stopgap.

 

[Enjou]

I've changed my plan to add a conditional for finding an intact datacore, moving us to archeotech reverse engineering instead. I decided against working on a damaged one until next turn, as we might still find an intact one in another ship. Also in case the chances of getting what's in the core is low and we want to double down on it.

 

[HanEmpire]

@durin:
1) Did Freya take vacations to Vanaheim?
2) How often did she go?
3) Did she take the Governor's Own bodyguards with her?

 

[Elder Haman]

So here is a more detailed comparison between plans (I will try to note where some plans are still in flux).

Current Plans:
Plan Enjou T65
Plan Elder Haman Y65
5 Year Plan (Superticus)

(Also can we get some commentary from the rest of the players on ease of reading the various plan formats?)

Current Differences:

Spoiler: Munitorum

There is some confusion here since durin appears to have made a mistake in calculating the number of turns left for the actions. Enjou has already adjusted his plan to account for this, Superticus and I have not (I'm just waiting for confirmation from durin).

However, this probably won't change the differences between plans that much. As I'll just move things around so that the Scout Regiments finish sooner (at end of turn instead of 2 years into next turn).

EDIT: Modified due to durin confirming that we have an extra year in each slot. Moved things so that Scout Regiments will finish at end of turn. Differences in plans are still as before.

Superticus plan is the same as my plan.

The main difference is that Enjou does not get Military Readiness (the +5 bonus to combat rolls), while Superticus and I do. This allows Enjou to start the Pilot Armor action this turn.

Spoiler: Void

Superticus and my plan are the same.

Only difference with Enjou is the Construction action. He starts work on more Ancient Defense Cruisers, which will take 4 years. While Superticus and I choose building Escorts which will take 2 years.

The main argument here is whether we want to focus on defending Avernus only, or if we want to be able to project power outside the Avernus system. Defense Cruisers are not warp capable. Our warp capable fleet lacks escorts.

This disagreement leads to other decisions related to this in the Mechanicus section. As I and Superticus want to get ready for repairing escorts right away starting next turn. While Enjou assumes we have plenty of time to survey all the command battleships first because in the meantime we will just be building Defense Cruisers.

A lot of this depends on where you think the next attack will come. Avernus, or elsewhere in the Imperial Trust? Or will we need to project power outside the Imperial Trust?

Ancient Defense Cruisers are more efficient for protecting Avernus only, but warp capable ships are more flexible. Your position on this issue may be the most important in deciding which plan to vote for.

Spoiler: Administorum

Plans are the same

Spoiler: Diplomacy

Here there are some significant differences. Superticus and my plan are the same.

Enjou has us delaying the Peace Treaty with Galena until next year so we can do Trade Talks with Vanheim this year. He also has us Contact the Sirens. Then he fills in the holes with Improving Diplomatic Relations with Svartalfhiem and Alfheim. He does not trade with Midgard.

My plan gets the Peace Treaty next year, and then does simultaneous Trade Talks with both Vanaheim and Midgard. That allows us to plan trade with both of them. I also Contact the Sirens. Unlike Enjou my plan has us Sound Out the Council about the Sirens and about Exporting our extra Psyker Hunters.

Probably the most important difference is that I and Superticus trade with Midgard and Vanaheim, while Enjou only trades with Vanaheim.

Spoiler: Arbites

Superticus and my plan are the same.

My plan has Jane teaching Syr Way of the Blade and then 2 years tutoring her in Intrigue. Mainly because I want to maintain Syr and Jane's interaction through out the whole turn. The other action slot spends 1 year on Psyker Hunting, and a Double downed Deepening of the Spy network on Vanaheim.

Enjou has Jane teach Syr the Way of the Blade, but after three years stops interacting with Syr.

Instead he Deepens the Spy Networks on both Midgard and Vanaheim, but only double downs on the Vanaheim one. Also spends one year on Psyker Hunting.

I think not doubling down on the Midgard spy network is a mistake.

Spoiler: Mechanicus

So the heart of the differences in the plans are here.

All three plans have the same Construction Actions.

For Biologus Actions, both Superticus and my plan does 5 preliminary species examinations, with a double down on Bombardment Cacti. Enjou's plan does 3 regional surveys, and two preliminary examinations.

We actually have Genators that give us a 5% chance at a regional survey success each turn, but I don't think they have ever succeeded. I think all three of us are pretty flexible on these Biologus actions, if anyone has strong feelings.

Enjou's plan focuses on searching the large command battleships until we find an intact datacore. With a backlog of arcotech in case we do.

My plan waits to see if we find a datacore on the Hyper Carrier, but if we don't will spend the research to gain the needed information to begin repairing Escort Destroyers. If we do find a datacore, I research it if damaged, and have a backlog of arcotech to research.

Both of us are flexible on what goes into these backlogs. More detailed comparison here: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) | Page 1367

Superticus just assumes that we will not find a datacore, and spends the research actions to get the information to repair Escort Destroyers.

Spoiler: Ministorum

All three plans are different here.

Enjou's plan has one action slot devoted to Grief Counseling Syr until she stops grieving and then begins effort on the Ordo Psykana. His other action slot is devoted to 4 years of Keeping the Faith on Vanaheim. @Enjou Why not just do Good Deeds? It has a better chance of success and also takes 4 years.

My plan has one action slot devoted to Grief Counseling Syr until she stops grieving, and then once she does switches to Keeping the Faith on Vanaheim, until the 5th year when I do Those in the Shadows (since that year we have 4 Gammas and 8 Deltas graduating). With the other action slot I do one action on Keeping the Faith for Vanaheim, and then I expedite the construction of the Ordo Psykana which means my Ordo Psykana will finish at the same time as Superticus plan.

Superitcus spends two years Grief Counseling, and then switches to Those in the Shadows for the rest of the turn. His other action slot is devoted to the Ordo Psykana.

Spoiler: Telepathica

The three plans are mostly the same here, with the only difference being what we do with the one free year of action available in the 5th year.

Enjou does research on the Black Crystal Ring, with a possible double down depending on contingencies elsewhere in his plan.

My plan does the Siren Shield with a double down.

@Superticus tries to do Cheating with a Mechanicus Research action, but that won't work with his Mechanicus plan,so he'll have to redo it.

Spoiler: Personal

Enjou and my plans are slightly different in contingencies, @Superticus plan is quite different and will probably need to be redone (Naval Academy is a two slot action).

Superticus seems to assume that grieving will be over after one turn, and so does not continue attempting to cope. Tells the Family, and grieves one year, and then moves on to Attending the Naval Academy, Preparing an Expedition, Expanding the Railways, and Tutoring Syr. He also always dedicates an action to spending time with Syr.

Enjou has one slot Coping with grief, until we are better and then switching to Tutoring Syr in Combat. His has an action slot doing nothing but spending time with Syr. He has an action slot doing nothing but helping her grieve, and once she stops grieving doubling up on spending time with her. His final action slot Tells the Family, and the switches to Syr Coping x2 except when attending the Council meeting. If Syr stops grieving doubles up on Tutoring in Combat.

My plan has one slot spent Telling the Family, and then switching to Tutor actions for four years with a mixture of Admin, Martial, and Combat. (Open to advice on what specifically to do). I have another slot dedicated to spending time with Syr. I have a slot dedicated to Helping Syr Cope until she stops grieving, and then switching to Pilot Armor. I have a slot for Coping except when attending the Council meeting. Once we stop grieving it switches to Helping Syr Cope x2, and if Syr has also stopped grieving switches to Specialists.

It's hard to compare my plan and Enjou's because the contingencies are so complex. But if I had to sum it up it would be this:

Same amount of time spent with Syr, same amount of time Helping Syr Cope.

1: If Rotbart's grief continues for a long time: Enjou will spend more Helping Syr Cope x2.

2: If Syr's grief continues for a long time (but ours does not), our plans are about the same on Helping Syr Cope x2, but I will spend more time Tutoring.

3: If we both stop grieving soon my plan will move back to Personal Attention on things, and will have more mixed Tutoring. Enjou will do a lot of Spend Time with Syr x2.​

Since I think the second scenario is more likely my plan is optimized around that scenario. Enjou's is optimized for scenario 1.

Hope this helps people comparing plans. Any comments on whether this helped or not would be nice.

 

[Durin]

But if we can get the equipment built and sent to us faster and earlier in the action then that should mean we can speed up the recruitment process.

Because normally what happens is we manufacture 25% of the needed equipment, recruit 25% of the needed numbers and begin training them. Then when the next 25% of equipment is done recruit the next 25%, and so on, until the last batch of recruits finish training.

If we can purchase the goods from Midgard, then we get say 50% of the equipment right away, and recruit 50% of the needed numbers and begin their training, then the final 50% of the equipment, and then we recruit the final 50% of the new troops.

That should speed up our recruitment process at least a little. (Maybe not those exact numbers which suggest a 50% faster process, but surely we can shave a year or two off the 13 year length of time).

@durin What do you say?

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That faster production of equipment is not your limiting factor, the reason that mass recruitment takes so long due to training time and limited training capacity

 

[Durin]

@durin:
1) Did Freya take vacations to Vanaheim?
2) How often did she go?
3) Did she take the Governor's Own bodyguards with her?

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1. Yes
2. Once every couple of years
3. Yes, an entire com pony

 

[Durin]

I have corrected the timds in military, you have an extra year on all three slots

 

[Ruirk]

That faster production of equipment is not your limiting factor, the reason that mass recruitment takes so long due to training time and limited training capacity

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That is actually quite interesting. The training time I understand completely, that is getting the individual soldier trained. Is the training capacity something we can attempt to address by some means? Even getting just a year off the period of time for training our forces would be a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Durin]

That is actually quite interesting. The training time I understand completely, that is getting the individual soldier trained. Is the training capacity something we can attempt to address by some means? Even getting just a year off the period of time for training our forces would be a worthwhile endeavor.

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not easily, there are only so many soldiers suited for being drill sergeants and you are using all of them, training millions of soldiers at once will have to be enough