The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Enjou]

Since @durin might ask for it, here's some suggested wording for the proposals being put forward. (this is not a vote or something to be voted on)

CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS - changes to law that require permanent placement in the

Champion Surt's Proposal - require a second representative on a third world in addition to a Low Council member.

Have this...

2.ii. In the event that a member of the High Council is unable to attend, send a representative of their choosing, or communicate with the rest of the High Council remotely due to Warp Storms, sieges, or other disasters their representative on the Low Council shall represent them when the High Council convenes.

Changed to...

2.ii. In the event that a member of the High Council is unable to attend, send a representative of their choosing, or communicate with the rest of the High Council remotely due to Warp Storms, sieges, or other disasters their representative on the Low Council shall represent them when the High Council convenes. In addition, each High Councillor must have at least one secondary emergency representative living in a system other than their own and other than the system in which the Low Council convenes.

RESOLUTIONS/PROJECTS - these are items that are temporary and don't really require a constitutional amendment.

Rotbart's Proposal One - Resolution Regarding the Quartok

Resolution: The Imperial Trust regards the status of the Quartok people within its borders as a matter of great importance, and as such cannot in good conscience vote on the matter at this time due to insufficient representation of member worlds due to Warp Storms. The High Council resolves to withhold the vote on this matter until such time that this problem has been resolved. Until that time, the security of the Quartok people shall be left to the planetary government of Avernus as it has been until now.

Rotbart's Proposal Two - Build a Small Shipyard in the Asgard System

Project: The Imperial Trust will fund the construction of a small shipyard in the Asgard system. Until such time that Vanaheim comes out of the Warp Storm currently cutting it off from the rest of the Imperial Trust, the shipyard will be used as a facility for maintenance, repair, and refit for vessels of the Imperial Navy and the System Defense Fleets of the Nine Worlds. The Security Council shall determine the priority in which access is granted.

 

[Elder Haman]

Sigh.... I wish we had talked to Champion Surt about the Quartoks. We don't really know why he is pushing so hard for them, that would have been nice to learn.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are annoyed that the other two groups are keeping secrets and that their primacy is being challenged, even subtly. Despite this they are not willing to share many of their own secrets, which are forbidden to teach to outsiders much as Fabricator-General Britton personally wishes to share them.

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Hmmm... might need to use that Whispers of Change. As the Mechanicus is the only group we have a lot of influence with.

The Artisan Guilds have shared everything that is not a Guild Secret and have even shared some of the most basic Guild Secrets, they are not willing to give up any more of their secrets. You get the idea that it may be possible to trade secret for secret with them but that would require that one of the other groups be willing to part with their own secrets.

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Yup... need to persuade the Mechanicus.

Champion Surt of Muspelheim is, supposedly, the most willing to share his secrets but claims to have already shared everything that is relevant. Given the distrusting look he gives Fabricator-General Britton at that point you suspect that he has a lot of hidden technology and that he fears that the Adeptus Mechanicus would classify him as a heretek if he shared it.

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Double yup... this is the lock, and we are the ones most likely to have the key.

Briton is all for sharing, but his own institution would trun on him if he did. He's already doing slow reforms towards being less secretive. There isn't much we can do to help with an internal Mechanicus matter.

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A possible halfway step would be to suggest the Mechanicus train ordinary Avernites in some of their secrets. Essentially move more towards a "lay priesthood" type of model.

Hmm.... an argument could be that with the shrinkage in the size of the Mechanicus, sharing information at lower levels of the Mechanicus than currently would help preserve that knowledge.

 

[HanEmpire]

Once Vanaheim gets out, let's arrange to have their best shipwright(?)s to help during the post cognition investigation into the Ancient ship production techniques. It might give bonus to the success chance.

 

[HanEmpire]

Dang, I think we should have included the Mechanicus in the powered trooper discussion. The Mechanicus has been fielding superheavy infantry en masse since forever.

 

[Enjou]

Sigh.... I wish we had talked to Champion Surt about the Quartoks. We don't really know why he is pushing so hard for them, that would have been nice to learn.

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Well, we probably will have some open Diplomacy actions. We might be able to use one for that.

Hmmm... might need to use that Whispers of Change. As the Mechanicus is the only group we have a lot of influence with.

Yup... need to persuade the Mechanicus.

Double yup... this is the lock, and we are the ones most likely to have the key.

A possible halfway step would be to suggest the Mechanicus train ordinary Avernites in some of their secrets. Essentially move more towards a "lay priesthood" type of model.

Hmm.... an argument could be that with the shrinkage in the size of the Mechanicus, sharing information at lower levels of the Mechanicus than currently would help preserve that knowledge.

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Increased education regarding technical skills for Avernites is already happening. From what durin told us there is a small percentage of the AdMech opposing it (with a few extremists throwing fits) and around ten percent supporting it, with the rest having a general "who cares?" attitude. So, that's already under way and going well, with the knowledge gap shrinking. But rather than shrinking the size of the AdMech, it will probably increase it in the long term, as there will be greater numbers of people who are of a level that they can be initiated as tech-priests, and some will likely come from outside the AdMech and as such help liberalize it further over time.


I think one other way might be to suggest doing what Saint Lin is doing and directing themselves away from symbols and their old saying and chants and developing new ones that don't risk corruption by the Abomination. (if they aren't already doing so - @durin could tell us if they are or not) New litanies, chants, and whatnot could gradually result in changes based on suggestions. Move with the theme of Wisdom that we suggested in our last suggestion.

So if you've got a saying like "Knowledge is power. Guard is jealously." that is common in the AdMech and sounds like something the Abomination might embrace, change it to something like "Knowledge is power. Share is judiciously." Subtle changes like that can have a big impact over time, as it changes the emphasis.

 

[Slamu]

The Adeptus Mechanicus follows the Quest for Knowledge, yes? Since we can't exactly host Explorator Fleets right now, why not reintroduce the Scientific Method as a way to rebuild the knowledge of the Ancients? It requires critical thought (which should help keep the Abomination away) and may help loosen some of the restrictions on sharing knowledge with the uninitiated (shaking loose lower level secrets perhaps?)

Alternately, maybe some sort of merger between the Artisan's Guild and the AdMech? That seems like a short term gain for long term difficulty there, as I imagine their conservatives would unite to impede further liberalization.

As for tech heresy...I have a niggling suspicion that our good Champion Surt has some sort of AI tucked away somewhere.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

The Adeptus Mechanicus follows the Quest for Knowledge, yes? Since we can't exactly host Explorator Fleets right now, why not reintroduce the Scientific Method as a way to rebuild the knowledge of the Ancients? It requires critical thought (which should help keep the Abomination away) and may help loosen some of the restrictions on sharing knowledge with the uninitiated (shaking loose lower level secrets perhaps?)

Alternately, maybe some sort of merger between the Artisan's Guild and the AdMech? That seems like a short term gain for long term difficulty there, as I imagine their conservatives would unite to impede further liberalization.

As for tech heresy...I have a niggling suspicion that our good Champion Surt has some sort of AI tucked away somewhere.

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You do realise that is basically the opposite of the admech's doctrine right. We're lucky @durin is even letting us reverse engineer anything rather than simply using STC's.

I want that I really do, but chances it would take a ****ing long time and will probably fail

 

[Enjou]

The Adeptus Mechanicus follows the Quest for Knowledge, yes? Since we can't exactly host Explorator Fleets right now, why not reintroduce the Scientific Method as a way to rebuild the knowledge of the Ancients? It requires critical thought (which should help keep the Abomination away) and may help loosen some of the restrictions on sharing knowledge with the uninitiated (shaking loose lower level secrets perhaps?)

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Already suggested to them - see here for that write-up.

Alternately, maybe some sort of merger between the Artisan's Guild and the AdMech? That seems like a short term gain for long term difficulty there, as I imagine their conservatives would unite to impede further liberalization.

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I doubt the Artisans will give up their independence.

 

[Beyogi]

Seriously, our best hope is likely to wait for the warpstorm to end and to contact Callamus. That way our local Fabricator would have some serious political backing to enforce some changes.

Right now I just don't see it happen. Maybe Surt can use diplomacy on the ad-mech rank and file, but I wouldn't put my hopes on it. We're probably just going to have to wait until the ad-mech has become less conservative. Otherwise we should likely try to work around them and do basic research on the level of the imperial trust. We've got a highly educated populace, Muspelheim is hightech, Svartalfheim is high tech. Ultimately we might want to set up an alternative technology organisation to the ad-mech, or a higher authority that regulates both the ad-mech and other high-tech organisations.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Seriously, our best hope is likely to wait for the warpstorm to end and to contact Callamus. That way our local Fabricator would have some serious political backing to enforce some changes.

Right now I just don't see it happen. Maybe Surt can use diplomacy on the ad-mech rank and file, but I wouldn't put my hopes on it. We're probably just going to have to wait until the ad-mech has become less conservative. Otherwise we should likely try to work around them and do basic research on the level of the imperial trust. We've got a highly educated populace, Muspelheim is hightech, Svartalfheim is high tech. Ultimately we might want to set up an alternative technology organisation to the ad-mech, or a higher authority that regulates both the ad-mech and other high-tech organisations.

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While I agree with this as Callumus could probably outfit an entire segmentum with basic power armor the problem is that Callamus is on the other side of what was the Imperium... getting there will be tricky at best and down right suicidal at worst.

 

[Vlad]

I would not normally say this, but the players are too timid. At least of anything that could result in internal conflict.

The Mechanicus is sorely in need of reform, but I doubt I will get what I want cause of fears of rebellion.

What I say to that is that is acceptable and if we need to purge the AdMech ranks of Techpriests who don't agree.

If Britton is in danger of being deposed we can support him and teach the Mechanicus they do not live in a bubble.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I would not normally say this, but the players are too timid. At least of anything that could result in internal conflict.

The Mechanicus is sorely in need of reform, but I doubt I will get what I want cause of fears of rebellion.

What I say to that is that is acceptable and if we need to purge the AdMech ranks of Techpriests who don't agree.

If Britton is in danger of being deposed we can support him and teach the Mechanicus they do not live in a bubble.

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What we need is a big pin for popping ... Ya think Surt has any records from DAoT humans saying stuff like "The Root of All Knowledge is Science"

 

[fasquardon]

Yanno what would be awesome? Some omakes about how the Avernus Mechanicus live.

I'll bet they are just as weird as all the other Avernites.

fasquardon

 

[HanEmpire]

I would not normally say this, but the players are too timid. At least of anything that could result in internal conflict.

The Mechanicus is sorely in need of reform, but I doubt I will get what I want cause of fears of rebellion.

What I say to that is that is acceptable and if we need to purge the AdMech ranks of Techpriests who don't agree.

If Britton is in danger of being deposed we can support him and teach the Mechanicus they do not live in a bubble.

Click to shrink...

But that means we'd be at war with the majority of the AdMech.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Yanno what would be awesome? Some omakes about how the Avernus Mechanicus live.

I'll bet they are just as weird as all the other Avernites.

fasquardon

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Completely qwackers, I mean they have all this awesome tech to play with and lots of test subject and are constantly repairing stuff AND have what could be called a religious symbol if you have no imagination in orbit. Yeah they must be as batty as the normal Avernitians if not more so.

 

[Enjou]

I would not normally say this, but the players are too timid. At least of anything that could result in internal conflict.

The Mechanicus is sorely in need of reform, but I doubt I will get what I want cause of fears of rebellion.

What I say to that is that is acceptable and if we need to purge the AdMech ranks of Techpriests who don't agree.

If Britton is in danger of being deposed we can support him and teach the Mechanicus they do not live in a bubble.

Click to shrink...

What are you talking about? The Adeptus Mechanicus is already undergoing reform, and slowly but surely it's becoming more along the lines of what we want. Ten percent openly support our people being educated on technical matters, most of the rest don't give a damn, and only a small percentage is angry about it but they are small enough to be dealt with and aren't opposing things with violence. That's already major progress considering just how long the AdMech has been mired in its traditions and dogma.

Also, a purge is beyond our power to pursue even if we wanted to do it - we do not control the AdMech. To try it we'd have to start a war with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and if Fabricator General Britton tried he'd start a civil war among them, because people who are nominally fine with letting things be will side against Britton if he tries that kind of thing. You're talking a purge of millions of people. Not to mention that purging people who are disagreeing peacefully but aren't Chaos corrupted flies in the face of us telling him to encourage an environment that invites open discussion. It screams OBEY!!! and would probably lead to Abomination corruption as the survivors just shut up and obey in fear.

There is absolutely no reason to pursue such a reckless course of action. The AdMech's morale is 20/10, completely maxed out. They're happy with the way things are going. Fabricator General Britton supports the reforms, as do presumably the others around him, and his position is basically unshakable at this time. All that we really need for reform to happen is time - time for the new ideas to take root, time for more liberal tech-priests to get promoted to higher ranks by Britton's faction, and so on and so forth.

 

[Jexx]

I am very much against radical, sweeping changes Vlad advocates. AdMech does need a good deal of reforming, but it is not nearly as bad or as urgent as he claims; And result of botch here will be major disaster for us and significant problem for Trust.

A potential vector for introducing new ideas grass-root style, in addition to Britton's top-down reforms, could be an increase in socialization between low- to medium-level AdMech personnel and average Avernites. One potential method could be installation of Forge complexes in each of our cities; Officially, to provide AdMech support if it became somehow isolated (more likely than you think, underground tunnels are safer than most forms of travel, but they are far from being totally safe).

Unofficially (and with some careful management and monitoring) we can introduce more liberal techpriests to each other and give them opportunity to work on their apolitical brethren without hard-liners shutting them down.

 

[fasquardon]

A potential vector for introducing new ideas grass-root style, in addition to Britton's top-down reforms, could be an increase in socialization between low- to medium-level AdMech personnel and average Avernites..

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I get the impression there are also a good number of tech-priests living in Avernite cities already. We could introduce model train building as a hobby to Avernus. I am sure that would get plenty of tech-priests involved.

fasquardon

 

[HanEmpire]

To get the bigger changes we should implement the Education Reforms that we got off of Muspelheim. Those will instill Critical Thinking in our people which will naturally feed the drive for innovation.
Plus it'll put a dent in the cultist recruitment rate.

 

[Elder Haman]

Since the Mechanicus has already accepted the Critical Thinking reform, perhaps it would be worth an explicit suggestion that the Mechanicus begin applying that Critical Thinking to the level of secrecy placed on various pieces of knowledge.

I don't see how it could hurt, with 20/10 Mechanicus morale we ought to be able to push for at least a little speed up in reforms.

 

[Elder Haman]

I get the impression there are also a good number of tech-priests living in Avernite cities already. We could introduce model train building as a hobby to Avernus. I am sure that would get plenty of tech-priests involved.

fasquardon

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I suppose we could do this under cover of being a way to celebrate the completion of the underground railway connecting all Avernite cities...

 

[Vlad]

What are you talking about? The Adeptus Mechanicus is already undergoing reform, and slowly but surely it's becoming more along the lines of what we want. Ten percent openly support our people being educated on technical matters, most of the rest don't give a damn, and only a small percentage is angry about it but they are small enough to be dealt with and aren't opposing things with violence. That's already major progress considering just how long the AdMech has been mired in its traditions and dogma.

Also, a purge is beyond our power to pursue even if we wanted to do it - we do not control the AdMech. To try it we'd have to start a war with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and if Fabricator General Britton tried he'd start a civil war among them, because people who are nominally fine with letting things be will side against Britton if he tries that kind of thing. You're talking a purge of millions of people. Not to mention that purging people who are disagreeing peacefully but aren't Chaos corrupted flies in the face of us telling him to encourage an environment that invites open discussion. It screams OBEY!!! and would probably lead to Abomination corruption as the survivors just shut up and obey in fear.

There is absolutely no reason to pursue such a reckless course of action. The AdMech's morale is 20/10, completely maxed out. They're happy with the way things are going. Fabricator General Britton supports the reforms, as do presumably the others around him, and his position is basically unshakable at this time. All that we really need for reform to happen is time - time for the new ideas to take root, time for more liberal tech-priests to get promoted to higher ranks by Britton's faction, and so on and so forth.

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What reforms? Britton and 1/10th of the AdMech might be in favoir, but all that is just them ignoring our education and knowledge reforms instead of having Techpriests trying to teach what they know outside the Cult. Changing their tradition of secrecy and exclusion of outsiders to their knowledge is entirely different.

As for letting reform happen on its own I don't want to wait another 50 turns. As you pointed out we have 20/10 morale on them. Use up some of that to rush through some of the reforms we want.

 

[HanEmpire]

As for letting reform happen on its own I don't want to wait another 50 turns. As you pointed out we have 20/10 morale on them. Use up some of that to rush through some of the reforms we want.

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Considering that this is the Adeptus Mechanicus we're talking about, I think 50 additioinal turns of waiting for a major reform is peanuts.

 

[Enjou]

What reforms? Britton and 1/10th of the AdMech might be in favoir, but all that is just them ignoring our education and knowledge reforms instead of having Techpriests trying to teach what they know outside the Cult. Changing their tradition of secrecy and exclusion of outsiders to their knowledge is entirely different.

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The fact that 10% are in support of expanded education for outsiders and most of the rest don't care at all is major progress. The old Adeptus Mechanicus would have been very much up in arms about the level of education we've got because that includes technical knowledge they don't think non-AdMech should know. Further, all STCs have been made available to any world that has a good reason to request them. The old AdMech would be hoarding the fuck out of that technology. The previous technical conference is a definite step in the right direction as well. Other stuff has been going on behind the scenes, and reforms have been mentioned in multiple turns.

What we're currently discussing is further suggestions of reform we can give to Britton so that it'll further speed things along or at least move things in a direction we prefer.

As for letting reform happen on its own I don't want to wait another 50 turns.

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Too bad. Reform is a process. We've been told it will be a process by the GM. This is not something we can simply brute force.

Fortunately we'll be switching to turns that are longer spans of time soon, so we'll be seeing effects faster.

 

[Andres]

All it would take is a few bad rolls for Britton to die anyway.

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Britton has probably selected an heir to take over the Mechanicus if he dies.

What I say is that the AdMech Cult needs a reform in the same vein the Church had with the Imperial Truth.

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The Church reforms have only passed through as quickly as they did because there was a Living Saint leading the effort. The only equivalent the Adeptus Mechanicus has (Tranth) isn't good at politics and doesn't want to get into it. Also, slow change is what the reformation is trying to achieve in the first place, as opposed to quick change or no change.

What I mean is to challenge the Mechanicus on their rituals and practices they do out of dogma and mindless obedience to tradition. For this is a way for tehe Abomination to take hold.

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This is already being done. We just need to give it time.

Hmmm... might need to use that Whispers of Change. As the Mechanicus is the only group we have a lot of influence with.

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Whispers of Change is just advising Britton on what he should do. Telling him to get the Mechanicus to let go of their secrets is redundant because he's already doing that.

Double yup... this is the lock, and we are the ones most likely to have the key.

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There are two things that Surt would think the Mechanicus would brand him Heretic Technis over: xenotech and AI. Innovation will be accepted due to a combination of Britton's teachings, Muspelheim's strong connection to the Dark Age, and the methods being tried and tested over multiple millennia. Hatred of xenotech and AI are core concepts of the Mechanicus faith and changing their minds about it is a lost cause (this is a good thing when it comes to AI, though).

A possible halfway step would be to suggest the Mechanicus train ordinary Avernites in some of their secrets. Essentially move more towards a "lay priesthood" type of model.

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I could be wrong, but I think they already have lay priests. It's how they get their menials indoctrinated into the Cult Mechanicus.

The Adeptus Mechanicus follows the Quest for Knowledge, yes? Since we can't exactly host Explorator Fleets right now, why not reintroduce the Scientific Method as a way to rebuild the knowledge of the Ancients? It requires critical thought (which should help keep the Abomination away) and may help loosen some of the restrictions on sharing knowledge with the uninitiated (shaking loose lower level secrets perhaps?)

Click to shrink...

Britton is already doing that. See Whispers of Change (A Balanced Approach) for details. It's just going slowly, as it must.

Alternately, maybe some sort of merger between the Artisan's Guild and the AdMech? That seems like a short term gain for long term difficulty there, as I imagine their conservatives would unite to impede further liberalization.

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No. The only commonality between them is that they work with technology. Ideologically, they're completely different. The Artisan's Guild works with technology as an expression of art and to increase their wealth. The Adeptus Mechanicus works with technology because of religion and as a way to increase knowledge. Moreover, the Mechanicus actually advances technology (if only slowly) while the Aritsan's Guild, as far as we know, doesn't.

We're lucky @durin is even letting us reverse engineer anything rather than simply using STC's.

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Reverse-engineering technologies is something the Mechanicus has done an innumerable number of times. The results aren't as respected as holy STCs but they're regarded well nonetheless.

Seriously, our best hope is likely to wait for the warpstorm to end and to contact Callamus.

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Can our Astropaths reach that far without the Emperor and without the Astronomican?

What I say to that is that is acceptable and if we need to purge the AdMech ranks of Techpriests who don't agree.

If Britton is in danger of being deposed we can support him and teach the Mechanicus they do not live in a bubble.

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This is even more in line with the Abomination than the Mechanicus' old teachings. "OBEY THESE NEW DIRECTIVES OR DIE."

Yanno what would be awesome? Some omakes about how the Avernus Mechanicus live.

Click to shrink...

Mechanicus morale is at 20/10. Not much point in getting more of it.

A potential vector for introducing new ideas grass-root style, in addition to Britton's top-down reforms, could be an increase in socialization between low- to medium-level AdMech personnel and average Avernites. One potential method could be installation of Forge complexes in each of our cities; Officially, to provide AdMech support if it became somehow isolated (more likely than you think, underground tunnels are safer than most forms of travel, but they are far from being totally safe).

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I think that's being going on for a while, even if it hasn't been mentioned much. We use a crap ton of Dark Age technology to run our cities, all of which require tech priests for maintenance, not to mention the engineseers who do maintenance for our armies. There's also the likely high number of Avernites who require cybernetics to replace body parts. It all adds up to there being significantly more interaction between AdMech and non-AdMech than usual.