As for fighting dragons with ballistas, it's nearly impossible. Ballistas simply aren't designed to fight flying opponents, and not only do they have almost no chance of hitting a dragon, they won't even have a chance unless the rider attacks head-on. The only way Meraxes could have died at all is if Rhaenys ignored the existence of ballistas in the first place.
Personally, I'm not sure G. R. R. Martin has a clear idea of what a "ballista" is. It's entirely possible that when he says "ballsita that shot down a dragon" he just means "big-ass crossbow on a swivel mount," which would be broadly speaking within the capabilities of Westerosi civilization to build even if no such weapons were built in real life. The existence of dragons would, in and of itself, be an incentive to try to develop such a thing, even if it didn't have much chance of working.
 
As for fighting dragons with ballistas, it's nearly impossible.

It's literally what happened. Of course, yes, the dragon needs to get into reach, but then dragon fire only has a limited range as well. Dragonriders will need to get somewhat close.

Personally, I'm not sure G. R. R. Martin has a clear idea of what a "ballista" is. It's entirely possible that when he says "ballsita that shot down a dragon" he just means "big-ass crossbow on a swivel mount," which would be broadly speaking within the capabilities of Westerosi civilization to build even if no such weapons were built in real life. The existence of dragons would, in and of itself, be an incentive to try to develop such a thing, even if it didn't have much chance of working.

The term AWOIAF used was "scorpion", which I guess is sort of a lighter ballista? Historical scorpions were manned by one person, so you could conceivably have several aimable scorpions in one castle.
 
By the way, what are we making of the silence from King's Landing? I thought we were outracing any raven on dragonback anyway, but it seems Rhaenyra thought otherwise, that there should have been one. I wonder what the hold-up is. Did something happen to Viserys? But in that case we surely would get word about that...
I may have underestimated some travel times but my general idea is Rhaenyra is fairly certain that someone or several someones sent a raven to King's Landing within the hour after she revealed herself at the Tourney. And she spent a few days in White Harbor after the Tourney resting and preparing. So there was time for an immediate reaction at least.

Personally, I'm not sure G. R. R. Martin has a clear idea of what a "ballista" is. It's entirely possible that when he says "ballsita that shot down a dragon" he just means "big-ass crossbow on a swivel mount," which would be broadly speaking within the capabilities of Westerosi civilization to build even if no such weapons were built in real life. The existence of dragons would, in and of itself, be an incentive to try to develop such a thing, even if it didn't have much chance of working.
I think the idea was Dorne built weapons to fight Dragons but even then, Rhaenys getting shot down was basically a 1 in a million lucky shot.
 
[X] Plan: The Partial Winterfell Experience (Hunt Version)
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Rickon Stark
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Rhea Royce
-[X] [Action] Take Part in a Hunt

Just having a jolly time with the so-called "barbarien" Northmen.
 
Personally, I'm not sure G. R. R. Martin has a clear idea of what a "ballista" is. It's entirely possible that when he says "ballsita that shot down a dragon" he just means "big-ass crossbow on a swivel mount," which would be broadly speaking within the capabilities of Westerosi civilization to build even if no such weapons were built in real life. The existence of dragons would, in and of itself, be an incentive to try to develop such a thing, even if it didn't have much chance of working.

Perhaps, but such a weapon would still have almost zero effectiveness against a flying target unless the dragon decided to just hang in the air about ten meters from the weapon and wait for the shot. If only because judging the distance to a target in the air is absurdly difficult. Not to mention following the manoeuvres in the air and hitting the dragon at the right angle so that the arrow does not ricochet. You will have more luck if you try to hit the dragon in the eye with a bow.

Yes, I remember that in the original, the dragon was hit, but it should rather be perceived as a miracle (or authorial arbitrariness if you like), which allowed Dorne to maintain independence. The media likes to exaggerate the effectiveness of siege weapons to the point of absurdity, but there are reasons why they could not play a role in battles and sieges comparable to cannons.

Eh, I feel like we're getting off-topic. I doubt Rhaenyra is planning to conquer Dorne, given all the problems within the Kingdom.
 
[X] Plan The Outdoor Winterfell Experience

[X] Plan: The Partial Winterfell Experience (Hunt Version)

I can't choose between either of the above lol
 
If you had to come up with anti dragon weapons, I suspect you'd be better of with ropes and chains than trying to hit the dragon.

A dragon swooping into to burn a castle could easily break it's wing if it gets snagged on a rope strung between it's towers. You'd rely on luck and them not spotting the chains before approaching, but it's easier thsn trying to hit a rapidly moving target.
 
[X] Plan: The Partial Winterfell Experience (Hunt Version)
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Lord Rickon Stark
-[X] [Conversation] Speak with Rhea Royce
-[X] [Action] Take Part in a Hunt

So Rhea seems to be angling for one of Bennard Stark's sons which definitely makes sense and has precedence though I think that's mostly in the future? We don't really know anything about them even from a Reader's perspective so the Hunt and talking with Rickon would most likely give us the most info about them to pass on to Rhea. We must go full Wingman!
 
Personally, I'm not sure G. R. R. Martin has a clear idea of what a "ballista" is. It's entirely possible that when he says "ballsita that shot down a dragon" he just means "big-ass crossbow on a swivel mount," which would be broadly speaking within the capabilities of Westerosi civilization to build even if no such weapons were built in real life. The existence of dragons would, in and of itself, be an incentive to try to develop such a thing, even if it didn't have much chance of working.

Yeah it's unlikely that weapon building has remained static in the face of dragons, especially since they're not exactly new as much as returning. if not from Westeros, then someone from Essos would have some old Valyrian era designs someone could recover.

If you had to come up with anti dragon weapons, I suspect you'd be better of with ropes and chains than trying to hit the dragon.

A dragon swooping into to burn a castle could easily break it's wing if it gets snagged on a rope strung between it's towers. You'd rely on luck and them not spotting the chains before approaching, but it's easier thsn trying to hit a rapidly moving target.

Bolas or net throwing ballista would be a good attempt. Either aim to snare them or shred the wings. Naval weapons might hold some inspiration there. The dragon's body is a small moving target but the wings are pretty wide from below, similar to weapons designed to hit ship sails.
 
It's literally what happened. Of course, yes, the dragon needs to get into reach, but then dragon fire only has a limited range as well. Dragonriders will need to get somewhat close.



The term AWOIAF used was "scorpion", which I guess is sort of a lighter ballista? Historical scorpions were manned by one person, so you could conceivably have several aimable scorpions in one castle.
I'm pretty sure that "realistically", a ballista would not have either the range nor the power to effectively threaten a dragon
Especially when firing upwards

Even when we get into those enormous fantasy bolt throwers, they probably shouldn't be effective dragon killers
A bolt thrower that big, powered by giant steel limbs rather than torsion rope bundles, is not going to be drawn and loaded with just a bunch of guys and a hand crank
You're going to need a whole counterweight system of boulders to load this thing

And between the size and weight of all that oak, steel and rock
Yeah you're not going to be able to track a fast moving target with that
I don't think you'd be able to even build it to have a swivel mount rather than a fixed firing position

And that's not even getting into mechanical failures
I'm not certain, but I'm worried that firing something with that much force under tension is going to result in it exploding
A frayed rope, a crack in the steel limbs that have been worn down by repeated stress, the wood splintering when the force bolt thrower firing translates back into the frame
There's a reason why all the really big and powerful siege engines don't use tension for power
Besides the fact that they just don't scale up as well as a rotating arm and a counterweight


Yes, I'm scrutinizing the "realism" of something meant to shoot down a giant flying fire-breathing lizard
But there's a different kind of suspension of disbelief going when regarding anachronistic mechanical engineering vs supernatural creatures
Not necessarily a greater suspension of disbelief, but a different one
 
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I'm pretty sure that "realistically", a ballista would not have either the range nor the power to effectively threaten a dragon
Especially when firing upwards

That rests on assumptions. For one thing, the range necessary will depend on the range of the dragon, i.e. of the dragonfire. And actually, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't get a continuous stream of fire that is longer than ballistae or scorpions can shoot? So yes, if they want to attack instead of just playing aerial surveillance, the draogns will have to get in range. In fact, dragonfire probably has such a shorter range that they will probably have to get in range of several scorpions, if the castle has several. And if you have several scorpions aiming at the dragon, then you will eventually get at least one with a good angle, instead of firing "upwards".

I mean, it's a dragon, not a B-52 bomber. It will not stay above the clouds and release fire straight down. If it wants to attack, it will have to come close to the castle and probably can't stay a perfect 90° above the target at all times. And then with several scorpions, it will be in the angle of several scorpions, too.

Even when we get into those enormous fantasy bolt throwers, they probably shouldn't be effective dragon killers
A bolt thrower that big, powered by giant steel limbs rather than torsion rope bundles, is not going to be drawn and loaded with just a bunch of guys and a hand crank
You're going to need a whole counterweight system of boulders to load this thing

Once again, AWOIAF specified "scorpion". I.e., a light ballista that can be operated by a single man. I am not sure where you get the idea it has to be this huge thing with counterweights and everything; a scorpion is a pure torsion engine, without trebuchet counterweights, and not even man-high. A light siege engine, of which you can easily put a dozen on your walls if you are specifically preparing for a dragon attack.

So this is another false assumption you rest your argument one. Now of course, the reason why a small, light siege engine was enough is because it was a lucky shot. If we go by how Tessarion died, and by Tyrion's books, most likely Meraxes was shot in the eye. It might even be a normal arrow to the eye is enough to kill a dragon, though granted, Tessarion was already dying when she was put out of her misery that way, so we can't know for sure. But a bolt to the eye, absolutely a way to kill a dragon, because apparently dragon eyes are vital organs or something.

Now, @Eternal_0bserver 's argument about dragons being a moving target, that is a much better argument here: Light siege engine or not, a scorpion still is not nearly as agile as a bow and has worse reloading times than a crossbow - and you are trying to hit a moving target and that ideally in the eye. So "one in a million shot" seems apt for how Meraxes was taken down. However, I will note that we have no real idea how dragon fights work. While there have been aerial dragon to dragon fights, most of them seem to have been decided by melee (i.e. claws and bites). This will only help so much against a castle, or a unit of people. So, I think we can't say for sure how mobile you actually can stay as a dragon while attacking with dragonfire.

Which means - yes, it was a lucky shot, but stocking your castle defenses up with scorpions and hoping for that lucky (but by no means impossible or even just miraclous) shot, that might still be a reasonable and deliberate strategy against dragons, instead of lucky happenstance.
 
Now, @Eternal_0bserver 's argument about dragons being a moving target, that is a much better argument here: Light siege engine or not, a scorpion still is not nearly as agile as a bow and has worse reloading times than a crossbow - and you are trying to hit a moving target and that ideally in the eye. So "one in a million shot" seems apt for how Meraxes was taken down. However, I will note that we have no real idea how dragon fights work. While there have been aerial dragon to dragon fights, most of them seem to have been decided by melee (i.e. claws and bites). This will only help so much against a castle, or a unit of people. So, I think we can't say for sure how mobile you actually can stay as a dragon while attacking with dragonfire.

I will note the book mentions this was a repeat burning of Hellholt, since Aegon's policy was to go around burning noble holdings on a schedule. Could be that Rhaenys et al were starting to do repeat "attack runs" for their repeated attacks on the same castles, which would make predicting much easier.
 
That rests on assumptions. For one thing, the range necessary will depend on the range of the dragon, i.e. of the dragonfire. And actually, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't get a continuous stream of fire that is longer than ballistae or scorpions can shoot? So yes, if they want to attack instead of just playing aerial surveillance, the draogns will have to get in range. In fact, dragonfire probably has such a shorter range that they will probably have to get in range of several scorpions, if the castle has several. And if you have several scorpions aiming at the dragon, then you will eventually get at least one with a good angle, instead of firing "upwards".

I mean, it's a dragon, not a B-52 bomber. It will not stay above the clouds and release fire straight down. If it wants to attack, it will have to come close to the castle and probably can't stay a perfect 90° above the target at all times. And then with several scorpions, it will be in the angle of several scorpions, too.



Once again, AWOIAF specified "scorpion". I.e., a light ballista that can be operated by a single man. I am not sure where you get the idea it has to be this huge thing with counterweights and everything; a scorpion is a pure torsion engine, without trebuchet counterweights, and not even man-high. A light siege engine, of which you can easily put a dozen on your walls if you are specifically preparing for a dragon attack.

So this is another false assumption you rest your argument one. Now of course, the reason why a small, light siege engine was enough is because it was a lucky shot. If we go by how Tessarion died, and by Tyrion's books, most likely Meraxes was shot in the eye. It might even be a normal arrow to the eye is enough to kill a dragon, though granted, Tessarion was already dying when she was put out of her misery that way, so we can't know for sure. But a bolt to the eye, absolutely a way to kill a dragon, because apparently dragon eyes are vital organs or something.

Now, @Eternal_0bserver 's argument about dragons being a moving target, that is a much better argument here: Light siege engine or not, a scorpion still is not nearly as agile as a bow and has worse reloading times than a crossbow - and you are trying to hit a moving target and that ideally in the eye. So "one in a million shot" seems apt for how Meraxes was taken down. However, I will note that we have no real idea how dragon fights work. While there have been aerial dragon to dragon fights, most of them seem to have been decided by melee (i.e. claws and bites). This will only help so much against a castle, or a unit of people. So, I think we can't say for sure how mobile you actually can stay as a dragon while attacking with dragonfire.

Which means - yes, it was a lucky shot, but stocking your castle defenses up with scorpions and hoping for that lucky (but by no means impossible or even just miraclous) shot, that might still be a reasonable and deliberate strategy against dragons, instead of lucky happenstance.
ASOIAF calls them scorpions because Roman scorpios are the most well known ballistae
There isn't an equivalent for giant fantasy bolt throwers because they don't exist

As for why I'm getting the idea that ASOIAF bolt throwers are all massive
I didn't

I said that "realistic" ballistae do not have the effective range or power to threaten a dragon
Especially when fired upwards into the sky
Something supported in universe by Meleys, who was repeatedly peppered by scorpions and shrugged them off with little injury

If you need a one in a million shot to the eye to wound and kill then that is indeed a very ineffective weapon you have there

And then I said that if we that if we go ahead and assume a giant fantasy bolt thrower then it still wouldn't be able to effectively threaten a dragon, but for different reasons


Though now that you've got me on the subject
Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon definitely decided that these things were unreasonably large

Though even sticking strictly to ASOIAF
Apparently the ones that Morian Martell used against the dragons in the 4th Dornish war are described as "Massive"
 
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I will note the book mentions this was a repeat burning of Hellholt, since Aegon's policy was to go around burning noble holdings on a schedule. Could be that Rhaenys et al were starting to do repeat "attack runs" for their repeated attacks on the same castles, which would make predicting much easier.
There's also only so many ways to approach a castle, especially when you want to

A) Set it on fire
B) Not fly into it.

You can probably pre-range and pre-sight the weapons, especially if you're willing to accept that 75% of them will be pointing in the wrong direction and get burned as well.
 
As for why I'm getting the idea that ASOIAF bolt throwers are all massive
I didn't

I said that "realistic" ballistae do not have the effective range or power to threaten a dragon

But as I have mentioned, that is not true. Range is not an issue, because dragonfire ranges will always be even lower. And power is not an issue because, well, even when you have supermassive ballistae it won't do you good. You need to hit the right spot anyway, so might as well use something lighter.

So the scorpion being an actual Roman style scorpio, i.e. light would absolutely make sense.

If you need a one in a million shot to the eye to wound and kill then that is indeed a very ineffective weapon you have there
Well, as I have said, it might not be one in a million. It still does require a lucky shot, of course, but well - it's dragons. What else can you do but something where you at least can hope for the lucky shot?

(well, there is water magic, of course - it seems the Rhoynar are the only ones who ever brought down dragons, with the help of Mother Rhoyne back home and with a scorpion in Dorne. The Freehold won the wars against the Rhoynar because it had literally hundreds of dragons, so even water magic was not enough anymore... and of course these days, nobody has it anymore. So a scorpion will have to do!)
 
If we are talking about scorpions, you will have at best one shot before the dragon gets to you and burns you to the ground. And this will not be an aimed shot, but a shot in "that general direction", so you cannot train your people to hit even a stationary flying target, even if we take not into account the accuracy of the machines themselves and the impossibility of accurately determining the distance, and therefore the position of the target in space and its distance to you. In the case of a castle, you will definitely have blind spots, where you can at best place one or two machines, and if, for example, the dragon decides to attack the walls from below, you basically will not be able to stop it. It is also worth noting that building a large number of siege machines and maintaining them in combat condition is a very difficult and expensive task, you can not just "spam" scorpions in the hope of a lucky shot.

Not to mention that the rider can wait and attack in the dark of night when you basically will not have a chance to react in time. Or not get within breathing distance at all, pelting you with rocks and burning logs, maybe even wildfire. That's why killing a dragon with a skilled rider is a miracle. I can imagine Rhaenys might not see the point in being especially careful against Dornish weapons, but I don't think her mistake will be repeated.
 
But as I have mentioned, that is not true. Range is not an issue, because dragonfire ranges will always be even lower. And power is not an issue because, well, even when you have supermassive ballistae it won't do you good. You need to hit the right spot anyway, so might as well use something lighter.

So the scorpion being an actual Roman style scorpio, i.e. light would absolutely make sense.
You mistake what "effective range" means
Effective range is the range within which a weapon will have a specific effect against a specific target
Distinct from maximum range, which is the furthest distance a projectile can physically travel

If you cannot reliably hit a target because of inaccuracy then it's outside of your effective range
If you cannot have the desired effect on the target because your projectile does not retain enough power behind it, then the target is outside of your effective range
This does mean that effective range changes depending on the target

If you're shooting bolts at a dragon, and you cannot reliably hit something that causes noteworthy injury, if those bolts are plinking off of its armored stomach, then you are outside of effective range
 
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By the way, what are we making of the silence from King's Landing? I thought we were outracing any raven on dragonback anyway, but it seems Rhaenyra thought otherwise, that there should have been one. I wonder what the hold-up is. Did something happen to Viserys? But in that case we surely would get word about that...
Clearly Daddy just sent ravens ahead to the Twins to get the Freys and our entourage to arrange a big surprise party for his dear Rhaenyra on the occasion of her anointment.
 
So Rhea seems to be angling for one of Bennard Stark's sons which definitely makes sense and has precedence though I think that's mostly in the future?
Considering that Bennard ended his regency with an attempted usurpation, it might not be the best idea to tie the crown's ally (whose family also has a record of backing usurpers, against which the crown objected strongly) to him?
 
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