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The Eleventh Primarch (30K Quest)

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Character Sheet
  • Informational

    • Drake Artorius

    Skills
    Governance (Level 4) = Legendary
    Diplomacy (Level 5) = Peerless
    Intrigue (Level 1) = Good
    Personal Combat (Level 4) = Legendary
    Ground Combat (Level 2) = Elite
    Naval Combat (Level 5) = Peerless
    Biomancy (Level 4) = Legendary
    Telepathy (Level 2) = Elite
    Divination (Level 2) = Elite
    Pyromancy (Level 2) = Elite
    Telekinesis (Level 2) = Elite
    Anathematic (Level 4) = Legendary
    Engineering (Level 4) = Legendary

    Traits
    Son of Excalibur = Drake Artorius is a true believer in the Federation of Bladus and the ideals that it stands for.
    Superhuman Charisma = Drake Artorius has inherited great charisma and persuasive ability from his progenitor.
    Little Anathema = Drake Artorius has an echo of his progenitor's antithetical nature to the Ruinous Powers. Immunity to Chaos, Minor Bonus to resisting Chaos for those around you.
    -Hated By Khorne = The Lord of Blood holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and he and his servants will actively seek to claim his skull for the skull throne.
    -Hated by Slaanesh = The Prince of Pleasure holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and they and their servants will actively seek to slay him wherever they can.
    Necron Knowledge = Drake Artorius made extensive study of the Necrons, the modern day legacy of the ancient Necrontyr. Major Bonus to fighting Necron forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Necron factions.
    Asuryani Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the Craftworld Aeldari, the Asuryani. Major Bonus to fighting Asuryani forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Asuryani factions.
    Drukhari Knowledge = Drake Artorius made some study of the Drukhari, the vile pirates and raiders of Commorragh. Minor Bonus to fighting Drukhari forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Drukhari factions.
    Aeldari Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the minor Aeldari groups such as the Exodites, the Corsairs and the Harlequins. Major Bonus to fighting Aeldari forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Aeldari factions
    Mechanicus Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made extensive study of the Mechanicus and its successor factions. Major Bonus to fighting Mechanicus forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Mechanicus factions.

    Preferences
    Passionate
    Divination
    Telepathy
    Biomancy

    Liked
    Personal Combat
    Naval Combat
    Pyromancy
    Telekinesis

    Interested
    Governance
    Engineering

    Not Interested
    Diplomacy
    Intrigue

    Disliked
    Ground Combat

    Hated
    None
     
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  • Informational
    • vsh said:
    The core thing is
    - vatborn want the tradition of being bred and groomed for war to continue
    - most other folks don't want that tradition to continue

    "Let them continue the tradition on their own dime" is not a compromise for the second group.
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    thats compromise,continuing of tradition but in a form more palatable to the nation they live in
    its been done before with religion and etnic traditions

    im sure the federation population can take a bit of L for once in their life
    if they cant,then i wholly support the vatborn insurrection
     
    [X] He remains at Excalibur to continue dealing with the vatborn crisis.

    With MC remaining Federation will suffer from Waagh, that's true. BUT! MC's old orky friend will literally help to deal a mortal strike to the opposition of vatborns. Casualties from unagumented forces will be high, so people once again will start using vatborns to deal with orks, which will lead to majority presence of vatborn in army. After that it would be easy to pass a bill about keeping high presence of vatborns in army, referring to this war as a reason for keeping highly professional super soldiers in case of emergency.
     
    Anontheashenone4 said:
    Can we stop arguing for a moment and appreciate just how well oshha was able to predict how people would react to and divide themselves on the matter of the vats?
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    I do.

    Thanks for the great writing @Oshha

    Regarding the Vatborn issue, why doesn't the Federation restrict the number of Vatborn able to serve in the military? Maybe a one-to-one basis with the Naturalborn and a maximal service time of maybe ten years?

    This would allow the Vatborn to serve, and at the same time, they would be incentivized to include some civilian topics in their teaching. They can keep their warrior culture alive. But at the same time, they would be forced to think of a way to evolve their culture. There is a good chance that many would decide to join law enforcement or other service.

    I think the Vatborn doesn't necessarily wish to serve in the military but in the Republic at large. Or am I wrong here @Oshha?
     
    The issue there is that the Vatborn want a guarantee that the ratio isn't gonna keep getting cranked, or that they'll be having this fight again next year for another concession without getting anything in return. This is their first existential threat, they're a bit on edge.
     
    Jax said:
    Regarding the Vatborn issue, why doesn't the Federation restrict the number of Vatborn able to serve in the military? Maybe a one-to-one basis with the Naturalborn and a maximal service time of maybe ten years?
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    Anti-discrimination laws. The Federation has to set fair standards for the job and they can't deny you the job based on a quota if you meet the standards.

    Aso the natborn massively outnumber the vatborn. as there isn't a large number of vatborn relatively speaking. They aren't just a minority of the Federation at large, they are a minority of the military itself. There isn't any chance of the vatborn outnumbering the natborn because the vatborn have a fixed population growth that hasn't been adjust to match the expansion of the Federation so with every passing year, the vatborn become more and more of a minority, especially if they take casualties in battle.
    Jax said:
    I think the Vatborn doesn't necessarily wish to serve in the military but in the Republic at large. Or am I wrong here @Oshha?
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    You are wrong. The vatborn want to serve in the Federal military. You can argue that is due to indoctrination since birth and alternatives being downplayed, but whatever the reason, the vatborn do want to serve in the Federal military.
     
    w34v3r said:
    The issue there is that the Vatborn want a guarantee that the ratio isn't gonna keep getting cranked, or that they'll be having this fight again next year for another concession without getting anything in return. This is their first existential threat, they're a bit on edge.
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    Part of the problem is that the vatborn want to keep the status quo while their opposition wants to change it. So the vatborn are being asked to make concessions without anything being offered in turn. Even the compromises are just reducing the size of the concessions and don't offer anything in return.
     
    Oshha said:
    Part of the problem is that the vatborn want to keep the status quo while their opposition wants to change it. So the vatborn are being asked to make concessions without anything being offered in turn. Even the compromises are just reducing the size of the concessions and don't offer anything in return.
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    The way I see it, deeply enshrined legal guarantees and/or increased autonomy can be a good carrot here.
     
    Oshha said:
    Part of the problem is that the vatborn want to keep the status quo while their opposition wants to change it. So the vatborn are being asked to make concessions without anything being offered in turn. Even the compromises are just reducing the size of the concessions and don't offer anything in return.
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    Has anyone asked the Vatborn what they think could be acceptable as a compromise?
     
    Oshha said:
    Yes, but they've happy with the status quo and don't want any special privileges which is part of why the situation is so messy.
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    Okay, but there must be some moderates among the Vatborn. Even if they are a minority, have they put forward any suggestions or is that one of the questions we get the answer if Drake stays?
     
    Jax said:
    Okay, but there must be some moderates among the Vatborn. Even if they are a minority, have they put forward any suggestions or is that one of the questions we get the answer if Drake stays?
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    They wouldn't mind increasing the numbers of vatborn being produced, but that is something you get if you press them for an answer rather than something they want. The vatborn are content with the status quo and want to keep things as they are.
     
    Information: Don't mind me.
  • Staff Post
    • don't mind me.
    Oshha said:
    I don't know. I've asked the staff to take a look because the "it is genocide or not" discussion was iffy to me, but none of them have shown up yet so I don't know.
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    The discussion around how to integrate Vatborn culture into the players' faction does not seem to violate SV's Rules at this time. It has mostly been a reasonably thoughtful and respectful exploration of a difficult in-universe situation. However, if you are not comfortable with it you are well within your rights as a QM to ask it to stop, and we'll enforce that.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Red Bovine said:
    That just comes across as pretty discriminatory against a people if not outright xenophobic against pure human strains. The Vatborn are loyal and our entire polity consists of numerous non humans, why in the world would we discriminate against the Vatborn for no real reason? What next? We start discriminating against races and even potentially other abhumans that may out breed humans? By that logic other aliens should feel normal humanity for having such a high birth rate.

    Like who gives a shit if pure humans potentially get out bred by another strain of humanity or even aliens? If they aren't assholes then we shouldn't mind that much. Especially if they turn out to be totally loyal.

    Besides that realistically that is extremely unlikely to happen. Like normal humans already breed incredibly fast to the point that in real life around 1 century we went from 1 billion humans to 8. And that's not counting that not only are Vatborn a very small minority but that the Federation population could easily number in the tens or even hundreds of billions by now. And that's not taking into account other human polities.

    Even when taking all that into account the rest of humanity is still vastly outnumbered by certain hostile races like Orks, Chaos Daemons and Nids.
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    But the Vatborn aren't loyal?

    They're a janissary class who are currently threatening a mutiny if the democratically elected government bans the creation of children genetically engineered for war.

    The underlying problem here is that the supersoldiers believe that they can dictate policy to the government based on the fact that they are really really good at murder. This is the kind of behavior you expect from praetorians in Rome or janissaries among the Ottomans, not the servants of a functional democracy. It is a natural and probably inevitable consequence of creating a warrior caste separate from civilian society, a class that takes pride in rejecting any occupation that isn't military.

    From the very beginning, the creation of a supersoldier caste was an evil. Perhaps it was a necessary evil, but the necessity is over. The Federation has a warrior society within their military, a clique that threatens revolt against the democratic government. This cannot be allowed to continue.

    Parliament should also take a very skeptical look at a commander who appears to be more loyal to the supersoldiers than the people of his nation. A commander with his own personality cult who feels free to disregard federal law.

    Oshha said:
    Part of the problem is that the vatborn want to keep the status quo while their opposition wants to change it. So the vatborn are being asked to make concessions without anything being offered in turn. Even the compromises are just reducing the size of the concessions and don't offer anything in return.
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    In a society with civilian control of the military, the democratically elected leaders do not "ask" the military to make concessions by offering something in return. That might be how things work among the Ottomans, where the janissaries can make or unmake a Sultan, but in a functional democracy the military elite do not get to override the representatives of the people.

    Vatborn within the military are not-so-quietly threatening revolt if the vote goes against them. This is the single most powerful argument they could make against the continued creation of vatborn.
     
    dptullos said:
    In a society with civilian control of the military, the democratically elected leaders do not "ask" the military to make concessions by offering something in return. That might be how things work among the Ottomans, where the janissaries can make or unmake a Sultan, but in a functional democracy the military elite do not get to override the representatives of the people.

    Vatborn within the military are not-so-quietly threatening revolt if the vote goes against them. This is the single most powerful argument they could make against the continued creation of vatborn.
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    Let me make something clear, the vatborn might almost universally serve in the military, but their culture isn't some faction or special unit of the Federal military, it is a distinct culture and minority of the Federation as a whole. This affair isn't the case of parliament acting against a faction within the Federal military or attempting to disband a unit within the Federal military, it is parliament taking action against a cultural minority of their populace. This isn't a group like the Praetorian Guard or the Varangian Guard or the US Marines protesting being disbanded, it is a minority protesting and resisting what they consider to be an attempt to genocide them.
     
    Oshha said:
    Let me make something clear, the vatborn might almost universally serve in the military, but their culture isn't some faction or special unit of the Federal military, it is a distinct culture and minority of the Federation as a whole. This affair isn't the case of parliament acting against a faction within the Federal military or attempting to disband a unit within the Federal military, it is parliament taking action against a cultural minority of their populace. This isn't a group like the Praetorian Guard or the Varangian Guard or the US Marines protesting being disbanded, it is a minority protesting and resisting what they consider to be an attempt to genocide them.
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    The vatborn are a culture and minority within the Federation.

    However, the vatborn are also a culture and minority within the Federal military. Their culture defines military service as their true calling and purpose, and their power within the armed services is what allows them to menace Parliament. They are using the threat of a mutiny to make policy, and they've refused any attempt at a compromise. This is not the kind of behavior that any functional democracy can permit within the military.

    If your culture is entirely dependent on military service, then you have a problem. Because military service is entirely dependent on the approval of the government, and the government isn't going to recruit or promote the disloyal. This would be much simpler if you had a group that wanted to be Space Amish, but the vatborn want to serve. If you define "service" as "we vote with our guns".
     
    dptullos said:
    The vatborn are a culture and minority within the Federation.

    However, the vatborn are also a culture and minority within the Federal military. Their culture defines military service as their true calling and purpose, and their power within the armed services is what allows them to menace Parliament. They are using the threat of a mutiny to make policy, and they've refused any attempt at a compromise. This is not the kind of behavior that any functional democracy can permit within the military.

    If your culture is entirely dependent on military service, then you have a problem. Because military service is entirely dependent on the approval of the government, and the government isn't going to recruit or promote the disloyal. This would be much simpler if you had a group that wanted to be Space Amish, but the vatborn want to serve. If you define "service" as "we vote with our guns".
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    So basically you are saying it's alright for a government to erase a people and their culture if they are a minority and said minority should absolutely be okay with said genocide and if they try to resist they are the bad guys and disloyal? Because that's what it sounds like.
     
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    The problem isn't that extreme. It's not about that. It's a branch that was born purely under military purview. Now that the government doesn't want to fund it, they are taking exception. We are ven doing it still illegally. So they are lobbying to maintain funds. They are just doing it from a military perspective instead of a political one. It's us vs them instead "how we can solve this"
     
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