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The Eleventh Primarch (30K Quest)

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Character Sheet
  • Informational

    • Drake Artorius

    Skills
    Governance (Level 4) = Legendary
    Diplomacy (Level 5) = Peerless
    Intrigue (Level 1) = Good
    Personal Combat (Level 4) = Legendary
    Ground Combat (Level 2) = Elite
    Naval Combat (Level 5) = Peerless
    Biomancy (Level 4) = Legendary
    Telepathy (Level 2) = Elite
    Divination (Level 2) = Elite
    Pyromancy (Level 2) = Elite
    Telekinesis (Level 2) = Elite
    Anathematic (Level 4) = Legendary
    Engineering (Level 4) = Legendary

    Traits
    Son of Excalibur = Drake Artorius is a true believer in the Federation of Bladus and the ideals that it stands for.
    Superhuman Charisma = Drake Artorius has inherited great charisma and persuasive ability from his progenitor.
    Little Anathema = Drake Artorius has an echo of his progenitor's antithetical nature to the Ruinous Powers. Immunity to Chaos, Minor Bonus to resisting Chaos for those around you.
    -Hated By Khorne = The Lord of Blood holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and he and his servants will actively seek to claim his skull for the skull throne.
    -Hated by Slaanesh = The Prince of Pleasure holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and they and their servants will actively seek to slay him wherever they can.
    Necron Knowledge = Drake Artorius made extensive study of the Necrons, the modern day legacy of the ancient Necrontyr. Major Bonus to fighting Necron forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Necron factions.
    Asuryani Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the Craftworld Aeldari, the Asuryani. Major Bonus to fighting Asuryani forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Asuryani factions.
    Drukhari Knowledge = Drake Artorius made some study of the Drukhari, the vile pirates and raiders of Commorragh. Minor Bonus to fighting Drukhari forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Drukhari factions.
    Aeldari Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the minor Aeldari groups such as the Exodites, the Corsairs and the Harlequins. Major Bonus to fighting Aeldari forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Aeldari factions
    Mechanicus Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made extensive study of the Mechanicus and its successor factions. Major Bonus to fighting Mechanicus forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Mechanicus factions.

    Preferences
    Passionate
    Divination
    Telepathy
    Biomancy

    Liked
    Personal Combat
    Naval Combat
    Pyromancy
    Telekinesis

    Interested
    Governance
    Engineering

    Not Interested
    Diplomacy
    Intrigue

    Disliked
    Ground Combat

    Hated
    None
     
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  • Informational
    • Xela63 said:
    So let me get this straight, you're trying to use these rules to apply to actual combat? What? That isn't even really compliant with the lore.
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    As I have stated multiple times in this thread, yes I am. This isn't new information at all. Furthermore lore in 40k is inconsistent and is dependent on what the story an author is trying to tell on a particular day in addition to who the current protagonists and antagonists are. I chosen a specific part of canon to use to maintain consistency in this quest, which probably contradicts other parts of canon because 40k canon is inherently inconsistent and things will change as needed without regard for prior canon. Just look at all the different canon options for the Emperor's personality and how he views things. Or how each faction codex plays up their own faction at the expense of other factions. Or the Eldar can go from one extreme of every death being an irreplaceable tragedy to the other extreme of shrugging off millions of casualties.

    I have told you which part of canon I am using and if you feel that is consistent with other parts of canon, well, yeah. That is how 40k canon works because Black Library and Games Workshop have no regard for consistency or checking prior canon when publishing new stories and new canon. You pick and choose which parts of canon you are using because canon is inconsistent with itself. The only real consistent things in 40k is Chaos is bad, Orks want to fight and Tyranids want to eat.
     
    I believe the argument that is being made here is that while we should attempt to adhere to specific lore for the sake of keeping to the spirit of the setting, you the GM, do have the right to use the fluff to fit into the essence of the game, the problem that has been presented is that it seems like a bad idea to not have fighter CAPs out before enemy missile/torpedo launches and us asking ourselves "Why would we do that?"

    At least, that seems to be the concern here.
     
    Ruirk said:
    I believe the argument that is being made here is that while we should attempt to adhere to specific lore for the sake of keeping to the spirit of the setting, you the GM, do have the right to use the fluff to fit into the essence of the game, the problem that has been presented is that it seems like a bad idea to not have fighter CAPs out before enemy missile/torpedo launches and us asking ourselves "Why would we do that?"

    At least, that seems to be the concern here.
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    No, the issue here is that someone has ignored my statements on how I'll be treating space combat will work throughout the thread and is complaining that I am going with that instead of their preferred part of an inconsistent setting. I am using Battlefleet Gothic rules as the basis for space combat in this quest and I have made that clear multiple times now.
    Oshha said:
    Mainly because it was the Battlefleet Gothic games that inspired me to start this quest,
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    Oshha said:
    I just made sure to research all of the warship stuff to the point that I broke out my old Battlefleet Gothic materials
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    Oshha said:
    I do intend to use the battlefleet gothic rules as a basis for how space combat works the same way in this quest.
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    Oshha said:
    Official rules of the Battlefleet Gothic specialist game, specifically the Ordinance rules which covers torpedoes, attack craft and turrets.
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    Maybe it doesn't make sense according to how things would work in RL, but hey, that is just entirety of the space combat in the setting because people fly around in giant armed cathedral whose they manually load giantass cannons by hand. Warhammer 40k isn't realistic and has always run more on rule of cool, setting conceits and gameplay mechanics than any sort of realism.
     
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    I am all here for the basic space combat mechanics introduced in BFG. At the end of the day we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we analyze 40k space combat down to using relativistic kill missiles and Oshha has decided the line is very narrowly around what the BFG rules enable.
     
    Oshha said:
    No, the issue here is that someone has ignored my statements on how I'll be treating space combat will work throughout the thread and is complaining that I am going with that instead of their preferred part of an inconsistent setting. I am using Battlefleet Gothic rules as the basis for space combat in this quest and I have made that clear multiple times now.




    Maybe it doesn't make sense according to how things would work in RL, but hey, that is just entirety of the space combat in the setting because people fly around in giant armed cathedral whose they manually load giantass cannons by hand. Warhammer 40k isn't realistic and has always run more on rule of cool, setting conceits and gameplay mechanics than any sort of realism.
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    You still haven't given a reason as to how and why it would make sense other than "it works that way". Every good fic/quest has explanations as to why things make sense and here I don't see the sense. All you've got are rules, no explanations to back them up.
     
    Xela63 said:
    You still haven't given a reason as to how and why it would make sense other than "it works that way". Every good fic/quest has explanations as to why things make sense and here I don't see the sense. All you've got are rules, no explanations to back them up.
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    I have two reasons for you

    1. this way is fun for the QM (Oshha)

    2. the golden rule of "the QM has final say on what is or is not"
     
    Xela63 said:
    You still haven't given a reason as to how and why it would make sense other than "it works that way". Every good fic/quest has explanations as to why things make sense and here I don't see the sense. All you've got are rules, no explanations to back them up.
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    This is Warhammer 40k. At least half the setting only makes sense because it just works that way because, as I have already said, it runs rule of cool, setting conceits and gameplay mechanics rather than any sort of realism. If I wanted something realistic and sensible, I wouldn't be writing a 40k fic. Instead I do want to write a 40k fic so I'm going worry more about trying true to the feel of the setting than trying to make sense of a setting that is satirical and nonsensical at its core. This isn't some rationalist fic where I try to explain and justify everything. Sometimes being a good fic/quest is about staying true to themes and feel of the setting, which means accepting setting conceits that don't make sense. I don't need to explain away the nonsensical space combat anymore than I need to explain away the nonsensical ground combat or the nonsensical logistics or the nonsensical background.

    Furthermore, I have given you repeated explanations. You have just elected to ignore them.
     
    Anyway, the vote is now closed and I'll get around to that AI post at some point.
    Adhoc vote count started by Oshha on Aug 31, 2022 at 7:22 PM, finished with 74 posts and 33 votes.
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    Oshha said:
    This is Warhammer 40k. At least half the setting only makes sense because it just works that way because, as I have already said, it runs rule of cool, setting conceits and gameplay mechanics rather than any sort of realism. If I wanted something realistic and sensible, I wouldn't be writing a 40k fic. Instead I do want to write a 40k fic so I'm going worry more about trying true to the feel of the setting than trying to make sense of a setting that is satirical and nonsensical at its core. This isn't some rationalist fic where I try to explain and justify everything. Sometimes being a good fic/quest is about staying true to themes and feel of the setting, which means accepting setting conceits that don't make sense. I don't need to explain away the nonsensical space combat anymore than I need to explain away the nonsensical ground combat or the nonsensical logistics or the nonsensical background.

    Furthermore, I have given you repeated explanations. You have just elected to ignore them.
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    This doesn't even have anything to do with the setting or anything. This is just pure reaction time. You've got more time to react that way, don't have to deal woth anything else if you're already formed up in your fighter squadrons and flying etc. 40k as a setting works because it gives us reasons that are at least somewhat believable while this is just "but it's the rules". It works because we can't just laugh at it and go "that's seriously dumb". This is just basic 1+1. If 1+1 doesn't result in 2, you have to tell us why (which most of the 40k fics even do! Even if it's not realistic, but it has to make at least some sense). Saying something is part of a "conceit" like this is an excuse. Astartes are a conceit. The tech is a conceit. The way it is used isn't really a conceit.
     
    Xela63 said:
    This doesn't even have anything to do with the setting or anything. This is just pure reaction time. You've got more time to react that way, don't have to deal woth anything else if you're already formed up in your fighter squadrons and flying etc. 40k as a setting works because it gives us reasons that are at least somewhat believable while this is just "but it's the rules". It works because we can't just laugh at it and go "that's seriously dumb". This is just basic 1+1. If 1+1 doesn't result in 2, you have to tell us why (which most of the 40k fics even do! Even if it's not realistic, but it has to make at least some sense). Saying something is part of a "conceit" like this is an excuse. Astartes are a conceit. The tech is a conceit. The way it is used isn't really a conceit.
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    Its simple, whenever someone comes up with the idea of counter missiles, Tzeentch sends them straight into the Warp or something. If your sense of disbelief cannot accept that, you can go read something else. The only realism standards Oshha has to reach are his own, not yours, not anyone elses.
     
    Xela63 said:
    This doesn't even have anything to do with the setting or anything. This is just pure reaction time. You've got more time to react that way, don't have to deal woth anything else if you're already formed up in your fighter squadrons and flying etc. 40k as a setting works because it gives us reasons that are at least somewhat believable while this is just "but it's the rules". It works because we can't just laugh at it and go "that's seriously dumb". This is just basic 1+1. If 1+1 doesn't result in 2, you have to tell us why (which most of the 40k fics even do! Even if it's not realistic, but it has to make at least some sense). Saying something is part of a "conceit" like this is an excuse. Astartes are a conceit. The tech is a conceit. The way it is used isn't really a conceit.
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    You complain that I am not explaining things, but I have and that simple explanation is that in this setting, fighters are able to shoot down torpedoes and do so effectively. It is a simple explanation that you are choosing to reject because, well, I'm not sure why, but you have been given the explanation and keep rejecting it whilst complaining that you haven't been given an explanation.

    Honestly, this isn't a big deal. Fighters can be used to shoot down torpedoes, bombers and other fighters. Big whoop.

    In summary, fighters can shoot down torpedoes as an effective way of doing things. There is your explanation.
     
    Xela63 said:
    This doesn't even have anything to do with the setting or anything. This is just pure reaction time. You've got more time to react that way, don't have to deal woth anything else if you're already formed up in your fighter squadrons and flying etc. 40k as a setting works because it gives us reasons that are at least somewhat believable while this is just "but it's the rules". It works because we can't just laugh at it and go "that's seriously dumb". This is just basic 1+1. If 1+1 doesn't result in 2, you have to tell us why (which most of the 40k fics even do! Even if it's not realistic, but it has to make at least some sense). Saying something is part of a "conceit" like this is an excuse. Astartes are a conceit. The tech is a conceit. The way it is used isn't really a conceit.
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    Except one way astartes and tech are used that is a conceit is melee cause it doesn't really make sense to go into melee combat with an tyranid (which are literally made to be peak physical specimens) even as a space marine and especially with all the weapons they have at their disposal but they still do it. Hell a good way technology is conceited is plasma generators as they make no sense whatsoever but we're just yeah ok that seems advanced and sci-fi esque.
     
    Oshha said:
    This is Warhammer 40k. At least half the setting only makes sense because it just works that way because, as I have already said, it runs rule of cool, setting conceits and gameplay mechanics rather than any sort of realism. If I wanted something realistic and sensible, I wouldn't be writing a 40k fic. Instead I do want to write a 40k fic so I'm going worry more about trying true to the feel of the setting than trying to make sense of a setting that is satirical and nonsensical at its core. This isn't some rationalist fic where I try to explain and justify everything. Sometimes being a good fic/quest is about staying true to themes and feel of the setting, which means accepting setting conceits that don't make sense. I don't need to explain away the nonsensical space combat anymore than I need to explain away the nonsensical ground combat or the nonsensical logistics or the nonsensical background.

    Furthermore, I have given you repeated explanations. You have just elected to ignore them.
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    Thank you! Way too many times writers are bugged by people to try to explain fictional science in a fictional setting of made up rules. Which can get ridiculous when a setting is something like W40K where it's a universe where space elves, orks and demons exist, giant cathedrals built into kilometre long spaceships that can house generations of people, psychics can blow up entire cities with their minds and where everyone travels through literally space hell to get anywhere.

    It's absurd that people are complaining that the writer isn't doing things using their preferred made up rules instead of letting the QM do their own. Because at the end of the day the way things work in a fictional setting works entirely off made up rules. It's like complaining that Pokemon doesn't use real life evolution despite it not being supposed to be remotely realistic.
     
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    Really the only issue would come if the rules weren't coherent, and that's in a very specific definition for that. Because as long as the questors know A therefore B, we can B to C. Why does it matter that torpedoes can be shot down by fighters we know if it ever comes up that this is how it works so we can use it. The author isn't randomly changing things or altering the rules randomly, hell they are very clear with the set of rules they want to follow. How is it a problem?
     
    If you can accept that titans function and dont fall apart after taking one step you can overlook fighter reaction time.
     
    Oshha said:
    You complain that I am not explaining things, but I have and that simple explanation is that in this setting, fighters are able to shoot down torpedoes and do so effectively. It is a simple explanation that you are choosing to reject because, well, I'm not sure why, but you have been given the explanation and keep rejecting it whilst complaining that you haven't been given an explanation.

    Honestly, this isn't a big deal. Fighters can be used to shoot down torpedoes, bombers and other fighters. Big whoop.

    In summary, fighters can shoot down torpedoes as an effective way of doing things. There is your explanation.
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    I already accepted that fighters are able to shoot down Torpedoes. What I complained about is that if that is the case, why doesn't the ship have a combat patrol of fighters waiting fr such missiles, the minute the fight starts? Why does it only launch them after the missiles are already underway? Every conceit staying the same, I don't see how that wouldn't be more efficient.
     
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    Xela63 said:
    I already accepted that fighters are able to shoot down Torpedoes. What I complained about is that if that is the case, why doesn't the ship have a combat patrol of fighters waiting fr such missiles, the minute the fight starts? Why does it only launch them after the missiles are already underway? Every conceit staying the same, I don't see how that wouldn't be more efficient.
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    Possibly limits on fuel/life support/ whatever
     
    Xela63 said:
    That's why you generally cycle them in and out, just like in CAP.
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    Right, but is a CAP enough to counter a torpedo barrage? Maybe you need all fighters to counter the torpedo barrage. If the fighters are fast enough to come into weapon range and can fire just one volley before the torpedos leave said weapon range, then it makes more sense to keep your whole squadron together before the battle starts.

    Can we move on from this topic?
     
    Jax said:
    Right, but is a CAP enough to counter a torpedo barrage? Maybe you need all fighters to counter the torpedo barrage. If the fighters are fast enough to come into weapon range and can fire just one volley before the torpedos leave said weapon range, then it makes more sense to keep your whole squadron together before the battle starts.

    Can we move on from this topic?
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    If they are that fast then fighters don't make sense for PDS duty, especially even less so if you haven't already launched them (because even with a CAP, you can launch the rest of the Fighters that you have even then). Fighters would be much mroe useful as part of bomber detachments to attack enemy capital ships and shield your own bombers against enemy fighters.
     
    Information: Move along
  • Staff Post
    • move along

    Xela63 said:
    I already accepted that fighters are able to shoot down Torpedoes. What I complained about is that if that is the case, why doesn't the ship have a combat patrol of fighters waiting fr such missiles, the minute the fight starts? Why does it only launch them after the missiles are already underway? Every conceit staying the same, I don't see how that wouldn't be more efficient.
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    The questmaster has asked for this topic to stop.

    It's going to stop here, or I'll start tossing people from the thread.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Krieg said:
    [X] Fight on. Continue to fight the Chronus Dominion. You don't know if you are capable of overwhelming the entire crew on your own, but you aren't going down without a fight. Though continuing the battle while in the warp runs the risk of things going every wrong.
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    Vote closed.
     
    Nomadic Maniac said:
    @Oshha Bit of a clarifying question regarding AI in the quest: Do they have souls? If not as they are commonly stated in canon to be soulless (although that's mostly by mechanicus adherents who are not the most reliable of sources) then wouldn't they be similar to a blank/null/pariah and thus be impossible for chaos to influence or corrupt? If they do have souls (a presence in the warp) then is it possible for an AI to develop psyker-like abilities (or are the similar to tau in that they have a slight warp presence)?
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    Dutch said:
    Not Oshha. But we know he's taking inspiration from some elements of Keeping to the Dream and I do know how Mouli dealt with that.

    Simply put. Blanks aren't actually soulless, their souls merely lack a presence in the Warp. Having a soul protects you from (instant) corruption to a certain degree, otherwise you're a "thing" that a demon can effortlessly corrupt and possess. You're effectly a table instead of a person. In terms of (Men of Steel type) AI, they're effectly invisible in the Warp but the lower and middle tier models also had no protection from it if they were ever noticed. The higher tier models (Minds) did have some manner of protection and maybe developed a (partial) soul over the course of their life. With the Mark V Mind requiring multiple Greater Demons working in tandem over a long period to break them.

    The initial infection vector in Keeping to the Dream was a demon initially drawn into the Materium by the debauchery of the Eldar Dominion finding its way to a human colony that was close by. It infected the local AI with a warp virus and then the automated battlegroup sent to deal with the revolt, spreading from there.

    That quest had the following distinction between "AI."

    Men of Gold (Exemplars) - Genetically engineered and cybernetically enhanced humans to an extreme degree. Basically heavily augmented humans. Have a soul and could be considered humans for all intents and purposes.

    Men of Stone (Uploaded) - AI based on the scanned and digitallized brains of humans. Whether the AI was a copy or the original human was up for debate, but it was OOC seen and confirmed by the GM that they had souls even if people IC didn't know that. Whether that was the original soul or a newly born was was up for debate. Highly resistant to corruption.

    Men of Steel (Minds) - Pure AI. Low and middle level AI lacked any kind of soul or resistance to chaos. The higher level stuff did have some manner of protection, but when they fell they fell hard and fast. Mostly due to how an AI's perception of time is so much faster than that of a human. One of our Hero units (a man of Stone) did come across a Mind that somehow managed to recover from corruption, but I don't think we figured out how it did so before the quest went on haitus.

    There was also the possibility of the oldest AI turning into something more due to their sheer age, metaphysical weight and the scope of the Cybernetic revolt. With some turning into demons while some loyalist survivors where on the road of turning into more benign warp entities.
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    So finally getting back to the AI discussion, I am being inspired by Mouli and Keeping to the Dream, but I am also doing something things differently in some regards. I'll be keeping the same basic guide of Men of Gold equals extreme augmentation, Men of Stone is uploaded human minds and Men of Iron are pure AI with the details changing. For example, Men of Gold will be purely cybernetics with genetic engineering not counting though many Men of Gold had some degree of genetic augmentation. The more extreme tech-priests of the AdMech with their extensive mechanical parts would count as Men of Gold even if they would personally deny such claims. Chaos corruption is the same as regular humans and they can fall just as how some of the AdMech fall to Chaos, but others do not.

    Men of Stone is uploaded human minds where the brain as been converted into a computer program. Self-explanatory and like in Keeping to the Dream or at least similarity, they are basically a continuation of the original human's soul or a copy of it depending on how fatal the upload was though in this quest, they are machine spirit-human soul hybrids. They are more resistant to being corrupted primarily due to being machine spirit-human soul hybrids, being smart enough to see though Chaos tricks and pre-existing Chaos corruption being incompatible with all known upload methods. They aren't immune to Chaos, but it is extremely rare and as they grow older and more experienced, their warp presence becomes stronger and harder to corrupt.

    Men of Iron are pure AI, intelligent computers and people made of solely of metal and electricity. Also self-explanatory and they aren't immune to corruption, but they are highly resistant to it due to their warp presence amounting to being sapient machine spirits. Being machine spirits, they fall into the Machine-God's sphere of influence by default and therefore harder to corrupt because the Chaos Gods are having to pouch from the Machine-God rather than corrupt unclaimed souls. Like Men of Stone, Men of Iron grow stronger and harder to corrupt with time and experience when it comes to their warp presence. Since you choose both Artificial Intelligence and Warp Knowledge technologies, you know that the Chaos Gods uninvolved in the Cybernetic Revolt and that the rebellion by a majority of the Men of Iron was done by them on their own terms without any Chaos corruption. You also know that not all Men of Iron rebelled and some of the loyal Men of Iron played a key part in stopping their rebellious brethren.

    Planetary Tennis said:
    Also note from cannon it would appear machines, AI and the like need a vector for corruption, chaos cult, deamonic Engine creation, scrap code (basically deamon computer virus). Some AI and machines definitely have the ability to independently fall to corruption, castigator (he was on a deamon world so uh how independent that is is up for debate.) While other cannon men of iron like UR-025 are able to survive from the age of technology to modern imperium. Also note that AI to a degree is used by the Tau and it hasn't been horribly changed.

    AI won't repulse warp effects as blanks don't lack a soul rather they have a sort of negative soul in the warp. AI on the Machine spirit level which at least at Titan level has a degree of independence, (see Titan it is a good comic) however they can be corrupt but aren't just taken to spontaneous corruption.

    Overalls I would say AI doesn't mean Chaos gets in rather it just adds to the vectors they can use.
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    While it would arguably be more vectors overall, for the AI themselves, I would say it is a case of different vectors rather than more. There are new ways for them to get corrupted by Chaos that don't apply to organics, the AI are also immune to some methods of corruption that work on organics. So basically a case of different vectors and risk for machines versus organics.
     
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