The Eleventh Primarch (30K Quest)

[Oshha]

Drake Artorius

Skills
Governance (Level 4) = Legendary
Diplomacy (Level 5) = Peerless
Intrigue (Level 1) = Good
Personal Combat (Level 4) = Legendary
Ground Combat (Level 2) = Elite
Naval Combat (Level 5) = Peerless
Biomancy (Level 4) = Legendary
Telepathy (Level 2) = Elite
Divination (Level 2) = Elite
Pyromancy (Level 2) = Elite
Telekinesis (Level 2) = Elite
Anathematic (Level 4) = Legendary
Engineering (Level 4) = Legendary

Traits
Son of Excalibur = Drake Artorius is a true believer in the Federation of Bladus and the ideals that it stands for.
Superhuman Charisma = Drake Artorius has inherited great charisma and persuasive ability from his progenitor.
Little Anathema = Drake Artorius has an echo of his progenitor's antithetical nature to the Ruinous Powers. Immunity to Chaos, Minor Bonus to resisting Chaos for those around you.
-Hated By Khorne = The Lord of Blood holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and he and his servants will actively seek to claim his skull for the skull throne.
-Hated by Slaanesh = The Prince of Pleasure holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and they and their servants will actively seek to slay him wherever they can.
Necron Knowledge = Drake Artorius made extensive study of the Necrons, the modern day legacy of the ancient Necrontyr. Major Bonus to fighting Necron forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Necron factions.
Asuryani Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the Craftworld Aeldari, the Asuryani. Major Bonus to fighting Asuryani forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Asuryani factions.
Drukhari Knowledge = Drake Artorius made some study of the Drukhari, the vile pirates and raiders of Commorragh. Minor Bonus to fighting Drukhari forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Drukhari factions.
Aeldari Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the minor Aeldari groups such as the Exodites, the Corsairs and the Harlequins. Major Bonus to fighting Aeldari forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Aeldari factions
Mechanicus Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made extensive study of the Mechanicus and its successor factions. Major Bonus to fighting Mechanicus forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Mechanicus factions.

Preferences
Passionate
Divination
Telepathy
Biomancy

Liked
Personal Combat
Naval Combat
Pyromancy
Telekinesis

Interested
Governance
Engineering

Not Interested
Diplomacy
Intrigue

Disliked
Ground Combat

Hated
None

 

[Dutch]

I don't know. I've asked the staff to take a look because the "it is genocide or not" discussion was iffy to me, but none of them have shown up yet so I don't know.

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Look. This isn't me wanting to gleefully murder the Vatborn or advocating their complete eradication, culturally or physically.

This is me pointing out that the way you've described the Vatborn's demands and general situation implies some pretty awful things.

 

[Darkcore41]

The problem is if we accept military only Vatborn due to its culture it opens the door to other things. Like the Admech and their religion. Pragmatically I want to keep the Vatborn but morally making clones just for war is wrong. That's why I proposed we allow new Vatborn to know their option and be presented to them equally. Handing the choice back to the new ones. It'll be slow but eventually they won't be as concentrated into just military.

 

[Dutch]

Since when weren't they human?

We should let the vatborn self govern and form a society of their own, they'll naturally branch out without the federation forcing them. They'll be like the mechanicus, following fed laws and governing themselves.

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I mean. If they branch out and culturally develop themselves on their own world that's effectively mission accomplished in my eyes. They'd be forced not to solely live their lives for the military and allow their childeren to experience more than a life in just the armed forces.

 

[armentho]

Since when weren't they human?

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They arent?
They got drake genetic mojo in them along other baby designer stuff

And i dont mean in the dehuminazing way,rather the opposite,acknowdleging their uniqueness also allows us how to accomodate and co-exist better with them

Ogryn are big so they will need special infrastructure,void habitat abhumans might have issues with heavy gravity so they will need prosthethics for visiting planets etc

They are a branch species with unique biological traits that mean they dont have the same needs as a baseline human

In thus case accelerated aging combined with drake DNA means they dont really have a reason for undergoing baseline human chilhood process

They are cousins or brothers to the baseline homosapiens in a genetic sense

 

[Dutch]

They arent?
They got drake genetic mojo in them along other baby designer stuff

And i dont mean in the dehuminazing way,rather the opposite,acknowdleging their uniqueness also allows us how to accomodate and co-exist better with them

Ogryn are big so they will need special infrastructure,void habitat abhumans might have issues with heavy gravity so they will need prosthethics for visiting planets etc

They are a branch species with unique biological traits that mean they dont have the same needs as a baseline human

In thus case accelerated aging combined with drake DNA means they dont really have a reason for undergoing baseline human chilhood process

They are cousins or brothers to the baseline homosapiens in a genetic sense

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I wouldn't consider that cause to call them Abhumans though? Abhumans have either evolved into a new direction or have significant mutations.

Would a Vatborn without the accelerated aging not be a Vatborn? Of course not. They are a type of generic human, not a subspecies. Their accelated youth isn't something vital to them but was a necessity of the crisis. It has cultural significance in that they want to decide on it for themselves, but one could also consider it a curse or detriment.

Moreover, if Vatborn are Abhumans then so are Servitors.

 

[Mostlyblue]

I mean. If they branch out and culturally develop themselves on their own world that's effectively mission accomplished in my eyes. They'd be forced not to solely live their lives for the military and allow their childeren to experience more than a life in just the armed forces.

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This way both parties get what they want without any conflict. Bladus has a few worlds that went through terraforming so it's perfect timing as well.

 

[armentho]

Would a Vatborn without the accelerated aging not be a Vatborn? Of course not. They are a type of generic human, not a subspecies. Their accelated youth isn't something vital to them but was a necessity of the crisis. It has cultural significance in that they want to decide on it for themselves, but one could also consider it a curse or detriment.

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It would be a curse or detriment if it caused either medical,mental health or socislization issues

As far i know it isnt the case,the vatborns have been over a century without either pain,or being mentally unstable or unable to interact with other species

So accelerated aging is feature no different than black skin is to black people

Recognizable feature that is neutral and doesnt need to be changed to appease someone else

if Vatborn are Abhumans then so are Servitors.

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"Being artifically born is the same as being a lobotomized corpse roomba"

call them a slur,it would be less offensive

 

[Dutch]

"Being artifically born is the same as being a lobotomized corpse roomba"

call them a slur,it would be less offensive

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Not as a slur, but because some Servitors are also vat-grown.

 

[Darksnider05]

So accelerated aging is feature no different than black skin is to black people

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This comparison my guy is not great and I'm going to kindly ask that you stop making it.

 

[armentho]

This comparison my guy is not great and I'm going to kindly ask that you stop making it.

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If it makes you feel akward then it serve its porpuse
Is putting you on the position if the vatborn when asked to modify their biological traits to better fit federate standards after a century of co-existing without need for it

Ergo why i bring that example to show how a real life equivalent would be
And why vatborns are so angry about it

Not as a slur, but because some Servitors are also vat-grown.

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Vatgrown servitors are usually porpuse made,they are braindead or their body is never fully self sufficient and never will be able to be sentient or self sufficient either

Servitors are macabre but the inability to actually think,breath,eat,introspection,self awareness etc

They dont count as sub-species because they arent really alive neither on the phylosphical sense (self wareness,free will,introspections,ability to learn etc) nor in the purely physical one ( processes like order, sensitivity or response to the environment, reproduction, adaptation, growth and development, homeostasis, energy processing, and evolution)

Servitors arent remotely "alive" either as individuals or as a greater group to be a species

 

[Red Bovine]

You answer with your own observation.

There are no issues with the Vatborn being Vatborn. There are no issues with the Vatborn being soldiers. There are issues with the Vatborn being almost solely soldiers.

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And? What would you say to cultures where there are some towns where do to developments most people there become involved in naval careers for the most part because their curriculum's put more focus on naval stuff? It's like saying to other people that have their own education programs that they are wrong and need to follow your specific views. Even today IRL most cultures have their own unique stuff and priorities.

In this instance trying to be so anal about educational prioritization makes no sense due to how big the galaxy is and how many different planets, something like around hundreds of thousands of worlds, it's just not practical to try to forcibly enforce this kind of thing without pissing off a lot of people an having them have less incentive to join the Federation.

If the Vatborn decide to raise their kids to be Vatborn and a similar upraising to them than that should be their own business.

Are we going to accept the forced lobotomization of civilians to fuel the industrial sector? Are we going to accept the Psycher pogroms or the Alien genocides? The general crimes against humanity? Probably since we should gracefully respect our cultural differences. Maybe we should participate to celebrate our cultural uniqueness.

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That's a terrible comparison since you are using extreme examples. If their culture was that extreme people would be more arguative about that. As is the issue a lot of people have is how close minded people are in trying to completely and uncompromisingly trying to get others to follow their own views and values with no arguments.

The problem is if we accept military only Vatborn due to its culture it opens the door to other things. Like the Admech and their religion. Pragmatically I want to keep the Vatborn but morally making clones just for war is wrong. That's why I proposed we allow new Vatborn to know their option and be presented to them equally. Handing the choice back to the new ones. It'll be slow but eventually they won't be as concentrated into just military.

Click to shrink...

But we do have Admech and we do let them follow their own religion. It's just that things like Servitors and treating people horribly isn't something they are actually that hung up on, with it being more of a means, and is the only problem we had with them. In fact one of the deals made was that if people wanted to leave they could, thus strongly encouraging them to not be total dicks to their people.

 

[armentho]

Snip

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Pretty much

At most i would make the vatborns education make a requirement of them licensing on a civilian trade on top of their military one

But thats more of a "adding a civilian pipeline" rather than getting rid of things as other have suggested

I Side with the vatborn on this issue

 

[Darkcore41]

But we do have Admech and we do let them follow their own religion. It's just that things like Servitors and treating people horribly isn't something they are actually that hung up on, with it being more of a means, and is the only problem we had with them. In fact one of the deals made was that if people wanted to leave they could, thus strongly encouraging them to not be total dicks to their people

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By your own admission we give them a choice and we don't make servitors a good option. Then why not do it here. Incentivize different paths for the new vatborn and give them a choice. It's no different then.

 

[Red Bovine]

Since when weren't they human?

We should let the vatborn self govern and form a society of their own, they'll naturally branch out without the federation forcing them. They'll be like the mechanicus, following fed laws and governing themselves.

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Well they are more like artificial humans. As in they were created artificially, like some canon abhumans.

Also a lot of us are fine with the Vatborn developing their own culture. The problem is that a number of people are unwilling to let them do that as shown with them insisting on trying to control how they would raise their own kids. I don't care what anyone says but it's just way too intolerant and controlling for people to constantly be against actually wanting to have a military like society.

Like maybe they may branch out into more civilian paths but that is their decision and choice to make on their own, not to be forced on them.

I wouldn't consider that cause to call them Abhumans though? Abhumans have either evolved into a new direction or have significant mutations.

Would a Vatborn without the accelerated aging not be a Vatborn? Of course not. They are a type of generic human, not a subspecies. Their accelated youth isn't something vital to them but was a necessity of the crisis. It has cultural significance in that they want to decide on it for themselves, but one could also consider it a curse or detriment.

Moreover, if Vatborn are Abhumans then so are Servitors.

Click to shrink...

This is important to stress, they are not normal humans. People really need to stop trying to apply normal values to them. Their nature is pretty important to them because it makes them unique. Advocating that it's not a vital part of who they are is the same kind of argument you'd likely see people making excuses for cultural genocide to make.

Just because they aren't natural doesn't mean that they don't deserve respect. For example if we got an artificially created machine race to join the Federation? Would people suggest that they not be able to reproduce because the process is artificial?

 

[Dutch]

Like maybe they may branch out into more civilian paths but that is their decision and choice to make on their own, not to be forced on them.

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Again. I don't think it currently is. It is their parent's decision, not the child's. The child is never in a position to make an unbiased choice. Their parents are demanding the Feds keep the government incentives and training active. The parents are insisting that it is their culture and duty to serve in the armed forces, it is their parents who are demanding that the basic education package includes military training.

It's the equivalent of a strongly religious family sending their kids to church every afternoon, only allowing the kids to watch Jesus TV, only allowing fellow church kids to come over to play, sending their kids to a private religious school and then asking whether they want to leave the church one day. Of course most of them would reject, it's their entire life at that point.

Just because they aren't natural doesn't mean that they don't deserve respect. For example if we got an artificially created machine race to join the Federation? Would people suggest that they not be able to reproduce because the process is artificial?

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I've never said I don't respect their culture or reject their ability to have their own culture.

I've been saying that as it is currently, certain traits work to the detriment of the next generations (along with giving them a false choice as things are). A culture focussed solely on war is unhealthy. What are they going to when the military expansion stops? When the army eventually demobilizes? When they retire from the front? When the Vatborn population rises more quickly than the billets in the service?

 

[w34v3r]

Which is why we have to be careful, having them take over the facilities for example forces them take on a more admin and education focused aspect to their society. I doubt the military aspects will go away, but we could get them to something akin to the turian model where the military covers things besides shooting.

 

[armentho]

I agree on that

If they want to be a etnic group then their birthing should be privatized to them and self handled and self financed while abiding by federate law regulations

Just as communitues like amish do in the US
IF they want us ti respect their independence and self determination it also means they gotta handle their logistics

You keep your cloning operation on yourself,as the federation no longer needs procurement of vatgrown soldiers

Is also a good roundabout way to make them spread into other areas of life

If they want to preserve their way of life then they will also have ti take responsability over production and maintainance of cloning

Wich indirectly push them towards expertise on civilian fields

 

[w34v3r]

Not just the cloning, but the educating also.

 

[armentho]

Not just the cloning, but the educating also.

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If they wabt to keep clone production going
They will need geneticists,medics,engineers etc

By making them go independt on the handling of vatborn creation,we push them towards diversifying their work culture

You still get the raised soldier education but a lesser degree,but now more like a farmer teaching his son/daugther the family trade

Seems a good compromise to me

The federation isnt gonna forbidd the creation of new vatborns.....but neither finance it so the vatborns will have to expand their education programms

If they want the federation to be on charge of vatborn production,then they are implicitly accepting the federate ownership of infrastructure and the government has the right to stop procurement if they wish to

If they want to keep it the production going,then we allow them but simply let logistical realities force them to open up their lifestyle

 

[w34v3r]

Precisely my thinking.

We don't have a diversified career spread because humans like doing all the things, we have it because it's necessary to do anything. Put them in the same boat and they'll adapt.

 

[Voidseer]

If they want the federation to be on charge of vatborn production,then they are implicitly accepting the federate ownership of infrastructure and the government has the right to stop procurement if they wish to

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Or even to change it. As long as the vatborn are not responsible for their own production than they have no right to complain about slight changes. Making them take responsibility for their own production/reproduction is the right thing to do.

//Edit: On the down side we might see something like a caste system emerge as a result.

 

[Red Bovine]

Again. I don't think it currently is. It is their parent's decision, not the child's. The child is never in a position to make an unbiased choice. Their parents are demanding the Feds keep the government incentives and training active. The parents are insisting that it is their culture and duty to serve in the armed forces, it is their parents who are demanding that the basic education package includes military training.

It's the equivalent of a strongly religious family sending their kids to church every afternoon, only allowing the kids to watch Jesus TV, only allowing fellow church kids to come over to play, sending their kids to a private religious school and then asking whether they want to leave the church one day. Of course most of them would reject, it's their entire life at that point.

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That just seems pretty ridiculous, yeah it would be something like private religious school but again the QM confirmed that they do have an education outside military stuff. Also that argument sounds pretty anti religious to me. Like I may not exactly agree on parents doing things like sending their kids to Catholic schools but if they want to do that as well as encourage their kids to be religious like them as well I respect their decision as parents raising those kids as long as they accept their kid not agreeing with their religious views in the end.

This really isn't helping the case that this argument sounds like the exact thing the Emperor was against with his Great Crusade in regards to cultures he didn't agree with.

I've never said I don't respect their culture or reject their ability to have their own culture.

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I point to the above. This is

I've been saying that as it is currently, certain traits work to the detriment of the next generations (along with giving them a false choice as things are). A culture focussed solely on war is unhealthy. What are they going to when the military expansion stops? When the army eventually demobilizes? When they retire from the front? When the Vatborn population rises more quickly than the billets in the service?

Click to shrink...

They could just take adult education courses? Seriously, people seem to act like that's not a thing here for some reason. If they aren't needed they could say just be offered adult courses for that kind of thing.

You say it's unhealthy but you aren't them and they aren't you. Players like you are refusing to accept that their values may not apply to them. You say that you respect their differences while saying that cultural genocide isn't genocide and when the literal definition was pointed out you pretty much just used the retorted 'I just don't like it.'

For the players saying that they do respect other people's cultures how about actually respecting others people's cultures instead of trying to forcefully shove our views and personal values down others people's throats?

I agree on that

If they want to be a etnic group then their birthing should be privatized to them and self handled and self financed while abiding by federate law regulations

Just as communitues like amish do in the US
IF they want us ti respect their independence and self determination it also means they gotta handle their logistics

You keep your cloning operation on yourself,as the federation no longer needs procurement of vatgrown soldiers

Is also a good roundabout way to make them spread into other areas of life

If they want to preserve their way of life then they will also have ti take responsability over production and maintainance of cloning

Wich indirectly push them towards expertise on civilian fields

Click to shrink...

Kind of agree here. If they want want to keep their culture then they may need to accept that to fit the Federations guide lines that they may need to form their own independent society for that to work. If that resorts in them needing to change at least we aren't directly forcing it on them.

 

[armentho]

For the players saying that they do respect other people's cultures how about actually respecting others people's cultures instead of trying to forcefully shove our views and personal values down others people's throats?

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Is the western hypocresy
"We like coexistence and diversity....wait no,not that kind of diversity"

Wich wouldnt be as annoying if they owned it and said "we have red lines we dont cross,we can only co-exist up to certain point"
But instead lf that they keep acting like tolerance of cultures is their priority

A Common mindset i noticed on SV gestalt webculture

All the "cultural diversity" is actually just western values with a thin paintjob on them and when actually faced with a non compliant culture they are too happy to go not!genocide on them while being on denial about it

 

[Archivist Grim]

I see the best option is to give them options, with main two being forming their own goverment and state as a member of the greater federation, or simply handing them control over logistics and administration of current goverment controlled facilties while still remaing citizens of the Federation of Bladeus. This choice is given to Vatborn, with significant choosing etheir choice. So we are likely to get a new member state out of those who wish for an independent state, and those who remain having logistics of running their cloning facilties.

Both choices acknowledge them as their own people, and would allow them to continue their culture. It will allow them and would still see a sizeable portion of population go into miltary, but will see a diversification of what careers vatborn go into. Vatborn see the miltary as their trade, and belive that basic miltary training should be part of their education. So, let that be, they still receive eduaction in other matters, and aren't pressed into miltary. With both options, vat-born would start pursuing other careers, and give them the tools and ability to devolp their culture further.

 

[bobbya1]

@armentho Really don't think this is the place for that....