The Eleventh Primarch (30K Quest)

[Oshha]

Drake Artorius

Skills
Governance (Level 4) = Legendary
Diplomacy (Level 5) = Peerless
Intrigue (Level 1) = Good
Personal Combat (Level 4) = Legendary
Ground Combat (Level 2) = Elite
Naval Combat (Level 5) = Peerless
Biomancy (Level 4) = Legendary
Telepathy (Level 2) = Elite
Divination (Level 2) = Elite
Pyromancy (Level 2) = Elite
Telekinesis (Level 2) = Elite
Anathematic (Level 4) = Legendary
Engineering (Level 4) = Legendary

Traits
Son of Excalibur = Drake Artorius is a true believer in the Federation of Bladus and the ideals that it stands for.
Superhuman Charisma = Drake Artorius has inherited great charisma and persuasive ability from his progenitor.
Little Anathema = Drake Artorius has an echo of his progenitor's antithetical nature to the Ruinous Powers. Immunity to Chaos, Minor Bonus to resisting Chaos for those around you.
-Hated By Khorne = The Lord of Blood holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and he and his servants will actively seek to claim his skull for the skull throne.
-Hated by Slaanesh = The Prince of Pleasure holds a special dislike for Drake Artorius and they and their servants will actively seek to slay him wherever they can.
Necron Knowledge = Drake Artorius made extensive study of the Necrons, the modern day legacy of the ancient Necrontyr. Major Bonus to fighting Necron forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Necron factions.
Asuryani Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the Craftworld Aeldari, the Asuryani. Major Bonus to fighting Asuryani forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Asuryani factions.
Drukhari Knowledge = Drake Artorius made some study of the Drukhari, the vile pirates and raiders of Commorragh. Minor Bonus to fighting Drukhari forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Drukhari factions.
Aeldari Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made complete study of the minor Aeldari groups such as the Exodites, the Corsairs and the Harlequins. Major Bonus to fighting Aeldari forces & Major Bonus to other interactions with Aeldari factions
Mechanicus Knowledge = Drake Artorius has made extensive study of the Mechanicus and its successor factions. Major Bonus to fighting Mechanicus forces & Minor Bonus to other interactions with Mechanicus factions.

Preferences
Passionate
Divination
Telepathy
Biomancy

Liked
Personal Combat
Naval Combat
Pyromancy
Telekinesis

Interested
Governance
Engineering

Not Interested
Diplomacy
Intrigue

Disliked
Ground Combat

Hated
None

 

[Imaninjah93]

It's not as simple as just popping people in a corner and being told to govern it. This isn't stellaris. They don't want to be excluded nor talked over. But they aren't offering anything that looks like them reaching any half way point here. They want to just keep the military bunt while ignoring any other source of future. They themselves must look in and see the rigidity in their cultish mentality. Let some vat brothers be vat sisters. Let some be artisans or philosophers. Even if they are painting stencils on weapons or philosophy over battle doctorine. Then acknowledge that this will ultimately stymie and limit them. This will only delay the fracturing to come of their whole cultish society. Open up, integrate, be who you are openly and without the authoritarian bunt of controlling every aspect of your offspring.

This is me ultimately role playing out a response from the other side at this point but I feel it worth being said for the why and how of what I believe

 

[Oshha]

What's the argument for this exactly? During the crisis this had a purpose, but now not so much imo? Given the push to "demilitarize" the Vatborn this would seem like a clear way to do so? Just having them follow the regular school system solves a lot of problems here and should be something that's pretty obvious.

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Following the regular school system is impossible because school system is designed for a normal maturity rate. The vatborn mature far too rapidly to be compatible with that as they reach adulthood in three years rather than eighteen.

That's pretty much their issue then? The Feds being a DAoT legacy government means that the right to procreation should be a constitutionally protected right, with government enforced "sterilizations" heavily restricted. While they aren't guaranteed government funded "reproduction" there should be nothing preventing them from using a non-government source. Something that the starting pick of Bladus having advanced medical tech should allow?

As long as you forget that parliament has a mandate and has no obligation to directly deal with them at all. Congress deciding to cut the defense budget without consulting the general staff doesn't justify a military revolt either.

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Okay, I'm going to make it clear that the funding or who is paying for the vatborn isn't the issue here. The vatborn wouldn't care if they had to pay for new vatborn out of their own pockets and the majority of the opposition don't care about who is paying, just the existence of the vatborn and the continued creation of them is unethical and immoral. Not to mention that the costs are a pittance compared to

This isn't about budget cuts, it is about a notable minority believing that the government is attempting to genocide them and acting accordingly while their opponents in the government and public are trying to correct what they believe to be an immoral and unethical practice. Under Federal law, creating life to use them as cheap, expandable manpower for your military is illegal, but an exception was made for the existent of the vatborn. Now a lot of people want to remove that exception while the vatborn want to keep it.

Basically, the issue isn't who is paying for the new vatborn, but the morality and legality of there being new vatborn.

 

[Oshha]

We can also use this to make them increase the length of time it takes for them to grow children to full adults and have them have a real childhood. This would help a lot of future problems I could see coming from vatborn

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Again, the vatborn won't accept that. They see no reason why they need to be biologically modified to conform to what others consider to be normal.

 

[Red Bovine]

Again, the vatborn won't accept that. They see no reason why they need to be biologically modified to conform to what others consider to be normal.

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Pretty much agree with this. This is a setting where Abhumans, aliens and even AI are a thing and where the Federation consists of numerous abhumans and even non-humans. Makes sense that they wouldn't see a reason that they had to conform to 'conventional' human development.

 

[Dutch]

Under Federal law, creating life to use them as cheap, expandable manpower for your military is illegal

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I agree? If the Vatborn don't see that as a problematic thing even if they are currently happy with their lot in life then I seriously doubt their moral compass?

The obvious solution to that conundrum is to make them more than a military resource. But seeing how the Vatborn reject that option, then I don't see why the Federal Government is obligated to keep the vats running as they have been*?

And just because people believe something doesn't make it true or a valid opinion to consider. Cultural change ≠ genocide. If we'd hold to that definition then something like secularization would also be cultural genocide.

* This isn't a call for genocide people, not unless the Feds plan to round them all up an shoot them.

 

[Red Bovine]

I agree? If the Vatborn don't see that as a problematic thing even if they are currently happy with their lot in life then I seriously doubt their moral compass?

The obvious solution to that conundrum is to make them more than a military resource. But seeing how the Vatborn reject that option, then I don't see why the Federal Government is obligated to keep the vats running as they have been*?

And just because people believe something doesn't make it true or a valid opinion to consider. Cultural change ≠ genocide. If we'd hold to that definition then something like secularization would also be cultural genocide.

* This isn't a call for genocide people, not unless the Feds plan to round them all up an shoot them.

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Dude, this is literally the definition of Cultural Genocide/Ethnocide:

Cultural genocide, or ethnocide, is the attempted destruction of a group's culture, religion, and identity. It is a coercive act imposed by a dominant group upon a weaker or minority group. Cultural genocide has been associated with imperialism and with settler-colonialism.

 

[vsh]

And just because people believe something doesn't make it true or a valid opinion to consider. Cultural change ≠ genocide. If we'd hold to that definition then something like secularization would also be cultural genocide.

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Forced secularization is genocide by UN definition (and often in laymen terms as well). What more extreme federation politicians call for would be a genocide by UN definition, no ifs and buts (and vatborn kinda understandably see "what if you compromise with genocide just a little" as unreasonable).

 

[Dutch]

Dude, this is literally the definition of Cultural Genocide/Ethnocide:

Cultural genocide, or ethnocide, is the attempted destruction of a group's culture, religion, and identity. It is a coercive act imposed by a dominant group upon a weaker or minority group. Cultural genocide has been associated with imperialism and with settler-colonialism.

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Culture isn't a shield for morally repugnant practices.

 

[Red Bovine]

Culture isn't a shield for morally repugnant practices.

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Who defines what's repugnant? The Vatborn are treated well like everyone else in the Federation, are given an education and can leave whenever to go to other paths if they want. Heck, despite the 'expandable' soldiers thing that doesn't mean the Federation actually treats them that way and I imagine that the Federation would treat them as any soldier with their capabilities.

On top of that you are literally saying it's alright to sterilize an entire people. Which is genocide no matter how you look at it.

Your entire argument comes across 'it's not my values' to justify wiping out an entire people. While refusing to acknowledge that not only that our own values may not apply to non humans or abhumans but that you are acting like your values are totally right. Could very well be in the future that a lot of our values would be seen as pretty messed up to future societies.

Also really not helping your case is that you aren't even remotely interested in trying to find any solutions other than what's presented.

 

[Darksnider05]

I'm still having trouble with them threatening rebellion, which means the military of the Federation is compromised and filled with disloyal soldiers which is a major problem.

Ignoring that though the Federation should 100% not be paying for the Vatborn being born anymore beyond paying their salaries and pensions.

 

[Red Bovine]

I'm still having trouble with them threatening rebellion, which means the military of the Federation is compromised and filled with disloyal soldiers which is a major problem.

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"How dare people have an issue with being genocided!?" Seriously, what part of they don't want to be genocided don't people understand? Would you be cool if someone was trying to commit that kind of thing on your people? It's just freaking ridiculous that people seem to be unable to comprehend this.

Ignoring that though the Federation should 100% not be paying for the Vatborn being born anymore beyond paying their salaries and pensions.

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But that is literally how they reproduce. It's like saying that people shouldn't have the right to free health care when it comes to birthing children. Which I think the Federation does have.

 

[Darkandus]

I'm still having trouble with them threatening rebellion, which means the military of the Federation is compromised and filled with disloyal soldiers which is a major problem.

Ignoring that though the Federation should 100% not be paying for the Vatborn being born anymore beyond paying their salaries and pensions.

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What the hell are you talking about? Loyalty isn't a death pact. You have no obligation to be loyal to someone who wants you to stop existing because you give them icky feelings.

The fact of the matter is the Vatborn Exist. We created them. We don't get to just pack them away in a box like a old toy once we're bored of playing with it. They have a right to exist, and to continue existing however they want to as long as they don't hurt other people. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if the vatborn were simply born in the normal fashion and hit maturity in three years. The problem is they come out of a tube, and some people don't like that.

 

[w34v3r]

1. Vatborn production by the government will cease.
2. The machines, supplies, and facilities, in part or in their entirety will be first offered to the vatborn for purchase (at a discount, probably subsidized by Drake).
3. Vatborn, or employees/volunteers approved by them working on their behalf, will take over the responsibility for the education and care of new vatborn. The standards the federation government maintained are the minimum required, as long as that minimum bar is maintained then the vatborn are free to add and grow their program as they see fit/can afford.

The way I see it this should solve .... Some of the issues fairly quickly, and set the vatborn up to solve the rest on their own. By forcing them to take more non-combat roles in order to maintain their society we should start forcing them to break out of the monomaniacal headspace a bit.

 

[Darkcore41]

The feds should stop paying but allow the vatborn to pay for their own creation. They should also impose a limit based on the percentage of the total population and to allow new vatborn to know about options outside the military.

 

[Dutch]

Forced secularization is genocide by UN definition (and often in laymen terms as well). What more extreme federation politicians call for would be a genocide by UN definition, no ifs and buts (and vatborn kinda understandably see "what if you compromise with genocide just a little" as unreasonable).

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Did I say forced secularization anywhere? I said regular secularization. Are we suddely going to pitty confessional groups because they are losing their "traditional culture" in a modern world? Regardless of that. Many modern values and rights only emerged victorious after they were forced down the throat of more reactionary movements, either by threat of them becoming irrelevant otherwise or something more violent.

are given an education and can leave whenever to go to other paths if they want.

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And I dispute that this is actually the case. Or atleast a fair case. Because prior to being allowed to make that choice they've been heavily influenced towards a certain direction

On top of that you are literally saying it's alright to sterilize an entire people. Which is genocide no matter how you look at it.

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We've just been told that this isn't an issue. The Vats could finance their own vats if they wanted to. They also aren't sterile and can have kids, they just prefer having vat kids.

Your entire argument comes across 'it's not my values' to justify wiping out an entire people. While refusing to acknowledge that not only that our own values may not apply to non humans or abhumans but that you are acting like your values are totally right. Could very well be in the future that a lot of our values would be seen as pretty messed up to future societies.

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Luckily we're playing in the here and now then.

Also really not helping your case is that you aren't even remotely interested in trying to find any solutions other than what's presented.

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Given that the issue with the Vats is their unwillingess to consider compromise, there isn't much to talk about.

Sure. We could give them their own world and let them to their own thing, but I presume that wouldn't be an acceptable solution to many. It also doesn't solve the actual issues that many in the Federation have with them.

 

[Lord4StarCommand]

Culture isn't a shield for morally repugnant practices.

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Oh I'm sorry, are they doing ritual sacrifice to dark gods? Are they eating babies? Or maybe force marriage their girls to decrepit sacks of shit old enough to be their grandfathers?, what's next? Are we gonna tell Galariens that their social media justice system is bullshit? Or tell Eldar to stop using souls of the dead for murder bots? Or maybe tell Mechanicum to stop worshipping toasters.

 

[Manatee supreme]

The feds should stop paying but allow the vatborn to pay for their own creation. They should also impose a limit based on the percentage of the total population and to allow new vatborn to know about options outside the military.

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Dont know about the limit you should probably just make sure that the vatborn can take care of the newly created.

 

[Darksnider05]

What the hell are you talking about? Loyalty isn't a death pact. You have no obligation to be loyal to someone who wants you to stop existing because you give them icky feelings.

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Yeah, we're just going to disagree the Vat born being state-sponsored seems to be against the will of the people and the ethics of the federation which should be the end of the argument as far as the government is concerned. If the Vat-born wish to continue to reproduce through Vats that's fine it should be slowly made into a private operation entirely unlinked to the government or the military.

 

[Darkcore41]

Dont know about the limit you should probably just make sure that the vatborn can take care of the newly created.

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The problem is without the limit wouldn't they be able to outnumber the natural born eventually. Also giving them complete control of raising the new vats will just make the future gen the same as them. Unlike them we want to give the newer generation the choice to diversify instead of falling into the same tracks they're on.

Should also limit how many Vat born to regular born can join the military to avoid a coup.

 

[armentho]

People. Changing problematic cultural practices isn't the same as conducting genocide.

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Is it tho?

Depends on how much % of the culture gets erased in the process



Technically natives on boarding schools werent mass killed (in comparizon to the actual wars,im aware if the abuses),but still was a way to get rid of their way of life and the elements thst kept them together as a group

Going further by the UN definition on genocide

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Point D is important,the vatborn etnic idenity is based around 2 elements

>being trained to be a soldier
>being a vatborn creation (artificially born)

Trying to cancel their birth rstes or to modify how they are born to them is the equivalent of "whitenization" breeding campaigns on spaniard and brazilians colonies

You are trying to take the vatborn race and trying to make it more aligned into "normal humans"

Imagine a black person reaction if they were told their kids from now on will be modified to be more white

The vatborn oppose the federate values,but lets not mince either side of the argument,the vatborn "compromise" suggestions seem to aim rather towards colonizer mindset

The vatborns arent human,why should they compromise into being genetically changed to be turned more like another race?

thats a specist take at best,the idea that to be good you gotta be as identical as possible to baseline homo sapiens

Their short aging speed isnt a bug to them,is a festure,and as far we know isnt causing them any problems on a medical sense

 

[Dutch]

Is it tho?

Depends on how much % of the culture gets erased in the process

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You answer with your own observation.

There are no issues with the Vatborn being Vatborn. There are no issues with the Vatborn being soldiers. There are issues with the Vatborn being almost solely soldiers.

 

[Imaninjah93]

@Oshha are we derailing a bit here or is this constructive discourse for the story?

 

[Oshha]

@Oshha are we derailing a bit here or is this constructive discourse for the story?

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I don't know. I've asked the staff to take a look because the "it is genocide or not" discussion was iffy to me, but none of them have shown up yet so I don't know.

 

[Dutch]

Oh I'm sorry, are they doing ritual sacrifice to dark gods? Are they eating babies? Or maybe force marriage their girls to decrepit sacks of shit old enough to be their grandfathers?, what's next? Are we gonna tell Galariens that their social media justice system is bullshit? Or tell Eldar to stop using souls of the dead for murder bots? Or maybe tell Mechanicum to stop worshipping toasters.

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Are we going to accept the forced lobotomization of civilians to fuel the industrial sector? Are we going to accept the Psycher pogroms or the Alien genocides? The general crimes against humanity? Probably since we should gracefully respect our cultural differences. Maybe we should participate to celebrate our cultural uniqueness.

 

[Mostlyblue]

The vatborns arent human,why should they compromise into being genetically changed to be turned more like another race?

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Since when weren't they human?

We should let the vatborn self govern and form a society of their own, they'll naturally branch out without the federation forcing them. They'll be like the mechanicus, following fed laws and governing themselves.