Here's a thought, since sending them to Imladris is a bad idea maybe we could hand them over to be used as labor/fighters on an expedition to another kingdom.
There was a big group of elves that went past the Door looking like they were off to battle. If it wasn't a quick one year fight then they should be getting reinforcements, send the Farmers off as part of it.
[] Write-In a Recompense: 15-20 Silver ingots (we are getting 10 a turn, this pays it off and gets it done as simply as possible. Half again shows we take it seriously without going too far into appeasement territory.)
[x] no fleecing here elf
-[x] Write-In a Recompense 2 silver take it or leave it
-[X] Write-In a Reckoning take the slayers oath or die for breaking guest right
It's why i went with the 'have the guilty party choose their own punishment' method as it will not only give Elrond a chance to see that we do have punishments for this sort of thing, but also show that we take it seriously and that his people will be safe in the future. Giving him and the families a chance to veto also prevents the guilty parties from choosing too light a sentence while also limiting the say outsiders have to prevent grumbling.
I'm completely stumped about a Reckoning because they literally tried to kidnap guests and hired workers in the middle of the night and then got violent when they were caught.
Imprisonment? Exile? Death?
If it was an Umgi doing this to a Dawi, what would we want from this?
Argenten's got a solid start to things, but I honestly would like @Warkeymon to weigh in on the Traditional Dawi punishment to the bullshit these Wazzoks just did.
oh l see the elves are trying to fleece us .. thats a grudge there.
offering only half the value of said goods are not a fair trade for Recompense time to tell the greedy elves to get lost
all joking aside the price they want is way to high and l say give them only 2 silver as they where no deaths
As for sending our little human King to Rivendell, it hardly needs to be here or there. Rivendell is, like, right next door. It's all of a day or two away.
[X] Write-In a Recompense: 15-20 Silver ingots (we are getting 10 a turn, this pays it off and gets it done as simply as possible. Half again shows we take it seriously without going too far into appeasement territory.)
[X] Write-In a Reckoning: At the very least those that participated in the attempted kidnapping will be given over to the Loremasters to study the laws and traditions passed down by the Ancestor gods as to the treatment of guests, the seriousness of the dishonor and Shame of attempting to kidnap a guest of the hold, and are to be taught as very young beardlings if that is how they wish to behave. They are to choose their own punishment from amongst the records as to how such behavior was dealt with in the past, with Lord Elrond and the families of the harmed being able to weigh in and veto if the punishment is deemed insufficient no less than once each. Should this be unacceptable, we can refer to the 'other shoes' ruling we provided before and offer to let those that attempted to kidnap provide labor to the families of the harmed and in their spare time receive education as to the laws and traditions of the Noldor as to how such actions are punished in their lands. The main thrust of our Reckoning should be that we take such violations of the guest rights and protections, as well as our hospitality very seriously and will not allow a precedent for future actions like this to be accepted.
Argenten's got a solid start to things, but I honestly would like @Warkeymon to weigh in on the Traditional Dawi punishment to the bullshit these Wazzoks just did.
That's why i left it vague and essentially up to the QM to come up with that, as well as giving Eldrond and the families one veto each to essentially allow the QM to show off different punishments as well as the lore for it if they wanted. Figured if I went too specific it might cause more trouble.
Also I put the 15-20 there again to leave it up to the Elves/QM as to what they will take and the min of 15 shows we take it seriously, but the max of 20 shows we also know there's a limited different between recompense and appeasement. We want to be just without trying to buy forgiveness.
Argenten's got a solid start to things, but I honestly would like @Warkeymon to weigh in on the Traditional Dawi punishment to the bullshit these Wazzoks just did.
Hospitality and Sanctuary are very important to the Dawi. Something like this is genuinely Slayer's Oath worthy if it was done between Clans and an Umgi who tried this would have been killed outright. So that's the level of seriousness a Lorekeeper would be plucking examples from when teaching the perpetrators their histories.
Hospitality and Sanctuary are very important to the Dawi. Something like this is genuinely Slayer's Oath worthy if it was done between Clans and an Umgi who tried this would have been killed outright. So that's the level of seriousness a Lorekeeper would be plucking examples from when teaching the perpetrators their histories.
Yup, and I figure by giving the guilty to essentially rub their noses in that fact as well as having to present the punishments will make it clear that not only do we take this as seriously as the Noldor, but we will not shirk when it comes to justice even when our own people are guilty.
Yup, and I figure by giving the guilty to essentially rub their noses in that fact as well as having to present the punishments will make it clear that not only do we take this as seriously as the Noldor, but we will not shirk when it comes to justice even when our own people are guilty.
So, you're suggesting that we emphasize that they'd be compelled by their own shame to shave their beards and join a suicide cult to not only them, but the Noldor?
I'm gonna be devil's advocate just to be clear and ask "why not make them take Slayerhood"?
O well it seems like I was being way to lenient then. I think instead of having them pick their punishment which seems kind of weird to me. I like the idea of the noldor being given a better idea of how seriously we treat guest rights by sharing the information from the lorekeepers on past incidents. But I think setencing them to 50 years of exile seems appropiate then unless they sace us the teouble and take the slayers oath.
[X] Write-In a Reckoning: At the very least those that participated in the attempted kidnapping will be given over to the Loremasters to study the laws and traditions passed down by the Ancestor gods as to the treatment of guests, the seriousness of the dishonor and Shame of attempting to kidnap a guest of the hold, and are to be taught as very young beardlings if that is how they wish to behave. They are to choose their own punishment from amongst the records as to how such behavior was dealt with in the past, with Lord Elrond and the families of the harmed being able to weigh in and veto if the punishment is deemed insufficient no less than once each.
@argenten's Reckoning cut down. I don't think the other section of it is really needed as I think it best they are dealt a Dawi punishment for this shit. It also lets Elrond and other Elves see just how seriously we take this shit by being able to review actual punishments for such offenses and decide if they're sufficient for themselves.
So, you're suggesting that we emphasize that they'd be compelled by their own shame to shave their beards and join a suicide cult to not only them, but the Noldor?
I'm gonna be devil's advocate just to be clear and ask "why not make them take Slayerhood"?
@Warkeymon
I like what Argenten is aiming for in general, but are you ok with such things that are essentially you finagling an answer based on multiple factors and the vote's general desire?
So, you're suggesting that we emphasize that they'd be compelled by their own shame to shave their beards and join a suicide cult to not only them, but the Noldor?
I'm gonna be devil's advocate just to be clear and ask "why not make them take Slayerhood"?
One because I hadn't actually known that was the QM's ruling at the time.
Two because while that might be *our* punishment for them, the Noldor might not want that level of bad blood, and so it being an option is better than it being the default.
three, if they do end up getting mercy from the Noldor and a lesser punishment for what they did, it will stick in their heads that they got off lucky and what they did crossed a line and that this is what awaits anyone that tries again.
four, having them choose their own punishment will also show how much they regret what they did and if they're the kind of Dawi to try to skirt around taking heavier punishments, thus compounding the shame if they try to wiggle out of it.
[X] Write-In a Reckoning: At the very least those that participated in the attempted kidnapping will be given over to the Loremasters to study the laws and traditions passed down by the Ancestor gods as to the treatment of guests, the seriousness of the dishonor and Shame of attempting to kidnap a guest of the hold, and are to be taught as very young beardlings if that is how they wish to behave. They are to choose their own punishment from amongst the records as to how such behavior was dealt with in the past, with Lord Elrond and the families of the harmed being able to weigh in and veto if the punishment is deemed insufficient no less than once each.
@argenten's Reckoning cut down. I don't think the other section of it is really needed as I think it best they are dealt a Dawi punishment for this shit. It also lets Elrond and other Elves see just how seriously we take this shit by being able to review actual punishments for such offenses and decide if they're sufficient for themselves.
[X] Write-In a Recompense: 15-20 Silver ingots (we are getting 10 a turn, this pays it off and gets it done as simply as possible. Half again shows we take it seriously without going too far into appeasement territory.)
[X] Write-In a Reckoning: At the very least those that participated in the attempted kidnapping will be given over to the Loremasters to study the laws and traditions passed down by the Ancestor gods as to the treatment of guests, the seriousness of the dishonor and Shame of attempting to kidnap a guest of the hold, and are to be taught as very young beardlings if that is how they wish to behave. They are to choose their own punishment from amongst the records as to how such behavior was dealt with in the past, with Lord Elrond and the families of the harmed being able to weigh in and veto if the punishment is deemed insufficient no less than once each. Should this be unacceptable, we can refer to the 'other shoes' ruling we provided before and offer to let those that attempted to kidnap provide labor to the families of the harmed and in their spare time receive education as to the laws and traditions of the Noldor as to how such actions are punished in their lands. The main thrust of our Reckoning should be that we take such violations of the guest rights and protections, as well as our hospitality very seriously and will not allow a precedent for future actions like this to be accepted.
The Lord at the Door
The Deadeye has sent word to you in the morning after the failed kidnapping that Maenthel, the leader of the Noldor Farmers, and Lord Elrond are the Door asking for you. You go out from Karak Drekfut having checked with the Matrons that the Noldor are only lightly injured and past the centre of the Valley where the Noldor are gathered. Most of them are without their weapons, but with some near to hand all the same.
Perhaps it is fortunate that the Eotheod and Captain Hagrim are away in the Near Vale and so were not here for last night's mistakes. The North Throng have come down from North Pass and are standing watch over the Ironploughs and the Noldor. So far the stern glares of the Greatbeard have been sufficient to cow both sides. There's something in you that feels a tinge of pride amidst the terrible shame at seeing millennia old Noldor stayed by the Greatbeard's disapproval.
Young Gisilhari, of all the Eotheod, is still in Karak Drekfut and follows you as you go along the long march to Kazad Urbaz. You had promised to introduce him to Lord Elrond, but this is not quite the manner in which you had intended it. All the same, it will be good for him to watch this affair. It might fit neatly into your lessons on Oaths, Debts and Grudges as well.
You go out into the High Pass to speak with Lord Elrond. Maenthel has been largely accurate in her description of the events of the previous night. Ironplough Greybeards had snuck into the camp where the Noldor Farmers dwelt in the Valley and had cut open a tent and gagged a Noldor. They had been caught dragging their captive towards North Peak and a short fight had resulted. The Greatbeard had rushed down to the Valley concerned that the Noldor may have taken some opportunity to betray the Hold and parted both sides before sending the injured to the Matrons.
Lord Elrond has come to discuss how the agreement could possibly stand while the Noldor cannot feel safe in your Ankor. The meeting in the High Pass continues for some time, long enough for the presence of a dozen Noldor archers to start to fade into the background. The Noldor will be returning to Imladris, not to fulfil their remaining service, for Lord Elrond will not ask them to stay in Karak Drekfut if you cannot control your Dawi.
And there should be a recompense as well, to those involved. Lord Elrond estimates that the families involved will not accept less than 1000SC
With the recompense agreed upon, you take the opportunity to introduce Gisilhari to Lord Elrond. The Garazi has been most attentive to your meeting and indeed throughout the year has shown signs of being a serious young lad who takes your lessons to heart deeply. The Lord of the Noldor is not unkind with Gisilhari and the two sit together for a time on one of the stones that litter the High Pass. They are talking about you, that they keep looking up and over at you as they speak makes it something clear. But their conversation is not terribly long and the pair return to you.
'It is a custom amongst the Dunedain that their heirs be sent to Imladris to study under the Noldor and be safe until they are grown. Young Gisilhari suggest that he would be opposed to also taking up residency in Imladris, the affairs of last night are evidently not all that is to be found in the Drekfut Ankor. But perhaps he should know fellows of an age, and a race. Consider offering Gisilhari some time under my wing in the years to come, he may need the kinship of fellow Umgi.'
You look down at the young King and stroke your beard slowly. Lord Elrond continues on and asks what will become of the fools who have disturbed the peace between your two peoples.
yea lm just hating how much there asking for and there only offering half the value of all our goods so there dealing in bad faith inless QM wants jump in here a correct the cost or me in this case
@Warkeymon
I like what Argenten is aiming for in general, but are you ok with such things that are essentially you finagling an answer based on multiple factors and the vote's general desire?
yea lm just hating how much there asking for and there only offering half the value of all our goods so there dealing in bad faith inless QM wants jump in here a correct the cost
Ok, with that info from the QM about how we would act as the victim party I know how to phrase my earlier thoughts.
[] Write-In a Reckoning: The only reason every one of those that broke Hospitality is not already taking the Slayer Oath is because the Noldor do not yet know our people and traditions. Instead they will make up for their shame in a manner the Noldor can recognize and respect. The Hold shall outfit these Dawi in fine Steel arms and armor so that the Noldor don't have that burden. They shall be handed over to Elrond as soldiers to use as he sees fit. Whether it's spending their lives attacking orks and goblin infestations, or the drudgery of guarding trade caravans, or any other task, they shall do them all without complaint and with the upmost skill and dedication.
