The Crimson King
It's possible to eat an orange with just teeth.
- Location
- America
Seems their souls can still witch despite the fact they're inside Ash. Verrry interesting.
Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)
- Location
- Earth
Hello Octavia!
How nice to see that the witches of the magical girls Ashtaroth subsumes still exist, hopefully the team figures out that the MGs experiencing overwhelming negative emotions can summon them if Ash can't spend all that grief quickly enough, it may be useful if they are being outmatched by more magical girls or hostile witches in the future, as a last resort sort of option.
How nice to see that the witches of the magical girls Ashtaroth subsumes still exist, hopefully the team figures out that the MGs experiencing overwhelming negative emotions can summon them if Ash can't spend all that grief quickly enough, it may be useful if they are being outmatched by more magical girls or hostile witches in the future, as a last resort sort of option.
- Pronouns
- He
So, I'm assuming what happened was Sayaka induced a grief overload of sorts?
I wonder if we will still have Sayaka, considering that Ashtaroth can drain grief. The only reason that happened is cause Sayaka generated far more grief than Ashtaroth could handle.
Edit: In hindsight, it makes sense.
Ash has been draining grief from the Soul Gems of 2 MGs, and Grief Seeds have a cap of being capable of holding, so Ash would hit her cap pretty fast.
Course, that makes me wonder what would happen if such a witch was able to defeat Ashtaroth, even with Ash draining them. Would the barrier then belong to the victorious Witch, or would both simply perish? My thoughts go to the latter.
I wonder if we will still have Sayaka, considering that Ashtaroth can drain grief. The only reason that happened is cause Sayaka generated far more grief than Ashtaroth could handle.
Edit: In hindsight, it makes sense.
Ash has been draining grief from the Soul Gems of 2 MGs, and Grief Seeds have a cap of being capable of holding, so Ash would hit her cap pretty fast.
Course, that makes me wonder what would happen if such a witch was able to defeat Ashtaroth, even with Ash draining them. Would the barrier then belong to the victorious Witch, or would both simply perish? My thoughts go to the latter.
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Lepidoptera
Mother of Monsters, Unverified Impuritas Civitatis
- Location
- Indeterminate Unknown
I think this chapter confirms for us that Witches cannot become Magical Girls again. Admittedly a lot happened and the Oktavia situation is new, but just from what I've gathered I do not believe it will be possible.
Oktavia is able to form even with Sayaka still separate and alive (well, as alive as she can be). The description of Oktavia's formation tells us that Grief isn't uniform; it's specific to the Magical Girls who produce it. Sayaka produced enough Grief to form Oktavia, and so Oktavia appeared.
Under normal circumstances, a Magical Girl's Soul Gem is transformed into a Grief Seed. However, we actually get a very good look at Sayaka's transformation into Oktavia in the original show. There, we see her Soul Gem fill with Grief and then shatter to reveal a Grief Seed inside it.
This leads into my present theory: Witches are in fact separate entities from Magical Girls. They might absorb certain traits and feelings from the Magical Girl who they are born from, and Ashtaroth has enough of these to have a human-like consciousness, but they aren't the same people. A Magical Girl is normally killed by the Witch erupting from their Soul Gem, but right now Sayaka and Tira's Soul Gems don't exist physically outside of Ashtaroth and so remained untouched. Thus, a Witch is born while allowing the Magical Girl to remain alive.
Of course, this is a very bad revelation for Ashtaroth. She still believes she's the same person as the Magical Girl who birthed her, despite only retaining some of her memories. I can't see her taking this revelation well.
Or maybe I've missed something important and everything I just wrote is completely and utterly wrong. I'm sure there will be much suffering either way.
Oktavia is able to form even with Sayaka still separate and alive (well, as alive as she can be). The description of Oktavia's formation tells us that Grief isn't uniform; it's specific to the Magical Girls who produce it. Sayaka produced enough Grief to form Oktavia, and so Oktavia appeared.
Under normal circumstances, a Magical Girl's Soul Gem is transformed into a Grief Seed. However, we actually get a very good look at Sayaka's transformation into Oktavia in the original show. There, we see her Soul Gem fill with Grief and then shatter to reveal a Grief Seed inside it.
This leads into my present theory: Witches are in fact separate entities from Magical Girls. They might absorb certain traits and feelings from the Magical Girl who they are born from, and Ashtaroth has enough of these to have a human-like consciousness, but they aren't the same people. A Magical Girl is normally killed by the Witch erupting from their Soul Gem, but right now Sayaka and Tira's Soul Gems don't exist physically outside of Ashtaroth and so remained untouched. Thus, a Witch is born while allowing the Magical Girl to remain alive.
Of course, this is a very bad revelation for Ashtaroth. She still believes she's the same person as the Magical Girl who birthed her, despite only retaining some of her memories. I can't see her taking this revelation well.
Or maybe I've missed something important and everything I just wrote is completely and utterly wrong. I'm sure there will be much suffering either way.
Ouch, poor new-timeline Tira.
Appletank
Acquire Cheese
However, it seems it would be possible to create a human shell for a Witch to inhabit, which, hey at least it let's Ashy get some sun.
New Friend Time? : P
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Eh, if Flair counts The Different Story as canon, it's certainly possible. Near the climax of that side-manga, Madoka wished to turn Oktavia von Seckendorff back into Sayaka. And it worked. True, the need for Madoka levels of potential is a bit of sticking point, but it's possible. And it's also possible to artificially inflate someone's potential to the Madoka-tier levels needed; it's how Madoka has Madoka-tier levels of potential. Not likely to ever be explored within this story, but it's at least theoretically possible for a Witch to be turned back into a Meguca.
Takareer
Words and feathers
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
JmonsterNEO
Spouter of nonsense
- Location
- The quest forums
No, I say we subsume Tira's Witch so we can see if anything fancy happens. It's the perfect opportunity to find out.
subsider34
Forum Lurker Extraordinaire
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Pronouns
- He/Him
One of my favorite stories on the site back from the dead! I was worried you'd abandoned it in favor of Most Omnipotent Goddess, which while decent, feels like it requires you to have more knowledge of the setting beforehand to make sense of it.
Anyways, props for an awesome chapter, introducing yet more things for Ashteroth & Co. to worry about, and laying the hurt on Kyubey.
Anyways, props for an awesome chapter, introducing yet more things for Ashteroth & Co. to worry about, and laying the hurt on Kyubey.
Neither amongst the living alas, but I do have a couple of possibilities: How do I Panic, (on Spacebattles)In Their Shoes.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Maybe, but we should run that by Tira first.
Ashy also screwed over Homura just by existing! That's an accomplishment right there.
I don't think you're entirely wrong, but it seems more complex then that. Big O refers to little S as "her weaker self". Beyond that, she sent her grief back at Sayaka, so there's clearly still a connection. And all that's before we account for Ashy weirdness applying.
I'm on the clock, so I'll do my highlights reel later!
Jim Starluck
CO, ICS Vanguard
- Location
- Cincinnati, OH
A wild Octavia von Seckendorf appears!
Quick, someone give her a harmonica!
Quick, someone give her a harmonica!
Sonifri
Is this the face of a villain?
- Location
- Texas
It only means that all previous attempts have ended in failure due to a lack of knowledge. The makeup of a witch and how to manipulate that structure is a mostly unexplored area of science.
If Ashtaroth were to consume one of those priests who incarnate that one witch as a magical girl she would gain the access to the knowledge on how to do that herself as well as providing her new familiar a unique testbed to further refine that process so that future attempts don't fail. She might also be able to trade Kyubey for that information.
The end result of the series itself was basically "keep trying and failing until you don't".
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Given that, according to Kyuddles, Ashtaroth is the most coherent witch ever seen, it does lend a lot to the theory that there is more knowledge on witch psychology, and opportunity for witch participation in testing, than has ever been available before...
- Pronouns
- She
That was a very enlightening chapter, actually. With that said, Sayaka and Tira probably aren't Familiars in the classical sense, but probably very similar in form and function.
Their Soul Gems were swallowed intact, and probably ARE intact in the weird dimension/space in Tome.
But since Oktavia can emerge when Ash can no longer keep up with the Grief, it's likely that Witches can have some influence beyond Ash, or those inside Tome can.
I think even Saars had helped Ashtaroth by influencing her into a Tearful Storm, and it was mentioned that there is something growing in the spot where she once sat in.
Their Soul Gems were swallowed intact, and probably ARE intact in the weird dimension/space in Tome.
But since Oktavia can emerge when Ash can no longer keep up with the Grief, it's likely that Witches can have some influence beyond Ash, or those inside Tome can.
I think even Saars had helped Ashtaroth by influencing her into a Tearful Storm, and it was mentioned that there is something growing in the spot where she once sat in.
Kalibrius
God of reflection
- Location
- The other side of the mirror
......
So saars is happy being inside ashtaroth
You know maybe that's why she didn't come out
She simply didn't want to
Ash may have accidentally made a shut in witch, I must find that oddly funny
Mayhaps ash can find matasaboro and get a side kick of sorts they do complement eachother in a yin yang way
Ashtaroth who is brimming with a self centric disposition and matasaboro a witch who basically considers herself an unimportant side character her literal nature is 'to play a minor role'
They'd get along well I think and ultimately matasaboros familiars would be happy as hell that someone likes their boss
So saars is happy being inside ashtaroth
You know maybe that's why she didn't come out
She simply didn't want to
Ash may have accidentally made a shut in witch, I must find that oddly funny
Mayhaps ash can find matasaboro and get a side kick of sorts they do complement eachother in a yin yang way
Ashtaroth who is brimming with a self centric disposition and matasaboro a witch who basically considers herself an unimportant side character her literal nature is 'to play a minor role'
They'd get along well I think and ultimately matasaboros familiars would be happy as hell that someone likes their boss
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I agree.
In addition, I owe someone on this thread an apology; they were technically correct about something akin to a doppel being possible.
As for where the story should go; I would let Sayaka rest for now, and flip through Novella to see if any new information has come to light as a result of what just happened.
Sonifri
Is this the face of a villain?
- Location
- Texas
Kalibrius
God of reflection
- Location
- The other side of the mirror
Well doppels in magia record are caused by greif overload and as the anime version shows they can overwhelm their normsl seves to take control so it what happened here is arguably a mixture of doppel but if any of you are familiar with project moon universe a 'meltdown' a psychotic episode with a lot of power due to emotional overload
Arguably claiming their witch versions will be an interesting look at what happens and assuming magical entanglement exists at all everytime homura resets will be along for the ride meaning we can collect alot of witches
Arguably claiming their witch versions will be an interesting look at what happens and assuming magical entanglement exists at all everytime homura resets will be along for the ride meaning we can collect alot of witches
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
Hmmm. Interesting. Shame that Sayaka flew into a rage, that conversation was promising, but I suppose that was inevitable. Kyubey is the source of pretty much everything bad in her life.
How do I Panic was really fun to write, but a lot of stuff happened and I really haven't had the mindset to write anything, let alone something so steeped in old feelings.
I want to continue it at some point, but we'll have to see.
How do I Panic was really fun to write, but a lot of stuff happened and I really haven't had the mindset to write anything, let alone something so steeped in old feelings.
I want to continue it at some point, but we'll have to see.
Hmmm, that's false, Lapin in Tart magica was perfectly able to reverse from witch to magical girl with no problems and she would be included in that statement, Kyubey cannot say that because he has proof it isn't the case.
Actually:
Even that perhaps don't work, Lapin is absolutely included in the question and as such it isn't *perhaps*, it's yes, there is no doubt about Lapin turning back to magical girl... wait a fucking second, Ashtaroth asked if they could be turned Human and Kazumi magica shows that he doesn't consider magical girls humans, he points that out when he tells Kazumi that wishing to be human is *stupid* because she'll instantly become a magical girl and won't be human anymore.
Well, if that was voluntary, I applaud you for, that little misdirection is a very good one. Beaten by a case of taxonomy, one wrong word dashing their hope despite the truth.
Not really? Beside the Lapin case I already pointed out, the pleiades saints actually did do it, it is just unstable, canon actually shows several cases of it happening. The problem in kazumi magica was that the memories of being a witch was so horrible it made the one bearing them go berserk, not that they couldn't exist, Isabeau probably actually had the same thing happen, we have the different story case too.