Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)
IvanDead
My bones are made of schadenfreude.
- Location
- Brasil
Just remember that having romantic affairs with yourself is a serious sign of narcissism.
- Location
- Somewhere
Ashy could be a dick and ask if Sayaka didn't want to [kill her] because the witch was what is left of her friend or because she seems harmless. Because, uh, how does she feel about not killing Charlotte before Charlotte could nom a half of her friend?
But sympathy's good! Ashy's all about that not death thing, like how she stopped Sayaka from stabbing herself in front of her friend, or stopped Sayaka from killing her, or let Sayaka not kill Charlotte, or not trying to kill the girl who purposefully made her witch out, and now Candel n Tira.
man, this story's cast has been through some stuff. very PMMM
But sympathy's good! Ashy's all about that not death thing, like how she stopped Sayaka from stabbing herself in front of her friend, or stopped Sayaka from killing her, or let Sayaka not kill Charlotte, or not trying to kill the girl who purposefully made her witch out, and now Candel n Tira.
man, this story's cast has been through some stuff. very PMMM
The meaning is clear here so it doesn't need to be changed, but I'll note that this is grammatically ambiguous, parsing as either "you now know that you can …" or "you know that you now can …". The usual way of disambiguating is to either move the "now" as shown (or after "know"), or to put a comma before it (like any adverb).
At least among the main five, height seems negatively correlated with survival, so perhaps we should regard this as a good thing. On the other hand, that's probably not true for witches, especially with Walpurgisnacht in the analysis.
Loath. This one's something of a favorite of mine—the -th ending (with soft /th/) is for nouns (or adjectives), and -the (with hard /th/) for verbs, as in sheath/sheathe, breath/breathe, wreath/wreathe, teeth/teethe, smooth/smoothe (which breaks the pronunciation rule), etc. The various -f(e)/-ve pairs are part of the same pattern, such as sheaf/sheave, belief/believe, grief/grieve, safe/save, half/halve, proof/prove, etc.
Took you long enough.
Ashy and Sayaka both have tools that would let them handle this; they're just not using them. Inexperience, I suppose.
Most swords only have one.
Interesting word choice.
Throwers'.
Wouldn't that be better for—no. No, this is bait. I will not fall for it. I will not make the obvious joke. Your motives are transparent, and I refuse to participate in this farce.
(For those unfamiliar: Flowering Night is (one of the) theme(s) of Sakuya Izayoi, whose primary power application is timestop.)
Thank you, that's very helpful, I could not possibly have figured that out on my own.
Lie.
Kyouko and Sayaka, too.Flairina on SB said:
"I lose more 'gucas that way." — Bugs Bunnycat
Oh, geez, Tira might feel obligated to stick around and help Mami. Hopefully she can leave that to the timeline's native Tira.
Daniel Webster?
I dunno; "the universe retroactively never existed" sounds like just about the most anticlimactic thing possible. Not only does nothing happen, there isn't even a setting for anything to happen in.
Mitakihara Middle may teach "advanced" math, but I don't think they cover noncommutative algebra. Matrix multiplication, maybe.
Well, I'm sure this will never come up again.
If you aren't dropping your guard, then make some shatterwords, dangit. You've already suffered for not having enough on hand.
I still can't recall whether you care about who/whom, but if you do, these should both be "whom".
<I don't know, Tira, a witch is a big responsibility.>
This one is kind of subtle, and I'm not entirely sure that it's wrong. As I read it, there's functionally a tense mismatch between "now" (present) and "if I die" (subjunctive future). "It's now entirely possible that if I die, you will as well" or "it's entirely possible that you now will die if I do" would definitely be correct, because the "now" is outside of the subjunctive, or you can just get rid of the "now".
Aww, but it's cute!
I think that should be "judging by"? Otherwise the sentence has no verb (except in the compound nouns).
Also, I choose to believe that the humor in question is blood. Phlegm or bile would be kind of disgusting.
I think.
I think this parenthetical would flow better set off by commas rather than parentheses.
I don't think anyone defines it like that? It's either "capable of experiencing sensation" or some variant of self-aware/conscious/intelligent/etc., with the distinction between the various words being vague and inconsistent. Not that anyone has a good system for categorizing intelligence.
She played make-believe, threw a tantrum when others didn't go along with her playing make-believe, then became eagerly affectionate when she got a hug. That just sounds like a toddler. Now, I don't think there's much reason to put toddlers in a higher category of sapience than, say, dogs (never mind ravens or apes), but I can't definitively rule it out, so… careful. Especially since it's hard to distinguish incapacity from inexperience—maybe Candeloro could reacquire language and abstract thought, given the same years that it takes a normal child to learn.
Nah, hers would be a giant gun.
I disagree, but I also don't think sapience is the only—or even necessarily the primary—concern. Possession of a sufficiently human mindset to enable communication; retention of human memories and comprehension thereof; capacity for peaceful coexistence with either your barrier's inhabitants or humanity at large; etc. There is sufficient evidence to conclude that witches like Ashtaroth are not an overwhelming majority, so that part holds up at least.
The central question of this fic. Or center-justified, at least.
Just the frames, though. The pictures were nothing special, but those were some sweet frames. </s>
My answer to the Ship of Theseus problem is that continuity of identity is a convenient lie to begin with, but I don't see how that's relevant. The question here is whether you can change all but a small (though important) part of someone—real changes, not just replacing old parts with new ones which serve the same function—and say that the result is the same person, or even a person at all. And yes, I know I just said that the notion of "same person" isn't really meaningful; the question has to be approached from a more functional, common-usage perspective.
Are they? Candeloro seems to have access to at least some of Mami's memories of her friends, and to want to be with friends (or "friends"). But that's her defining aspect, and it's far from all of Mami's personality. Does Candeloro share Mami's desire to be a hero, to protect people? Her pride, her guilt? Or is it just her loneliness? Does Candeloro remember anything that was important to Mami other than the friends who left her?
We just don't have much evidence either way.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think Tira's conclusion sums it up well: Candeloro isn't Mami; Candeloro is just parts of Mami that remain (with varying degrees of distortion).The meaning is clear here so it doesn't need to be changed, but I'll note that this is grammatically ambiguous, parsing as either "you now know that you can …" or "you know that you now can …". The usual way of disambiguating is to either move the "now" as shown (or after "know"), or to put a comma before it (like any adverb).
At least among the main five, height seems negatively correlated with survival, so perhaps we should regard this as a good thing. On the other hand, that's probably not true for witches, especially with Walpurgisnacht in the analysis.
Loath. This one's something of a favorite of mine—the -th ending (with soft /th/) is for nouns (or adjectives), and -the (with hard /th/) for verbs, as in sheath/sheathe, breath/breathe, wreath/wreathe, teeth/teethe, smooth/smoothe (which breaks the pronunciation rule), etc. The various -f(e)/-ve pairs are part of the same pattern, such as sheaf/sheave, belief/believe, grief/grieve, safe/save, half/halve, proof/prove, etc.
Took you long enough.
Ashy and Sayaka both have tools that would let them handle this; they're just not using them. Inexperience, I suppose.
Most swords only have one.
Interesting word choice.
Throwers'.
Wouldn't that be better for—no. No, this is bait. I will not fall for it. I will not make the obvious joke. Your motives are transparent, and I refuse to participate in this farce.
(For those unfamiliar: Flowering Night is (one of the) theme(s) of Sakuya Izayoi, whose primary power application is timestop.)
Thank you, that's very helpful, I could not possibly have figured that out on my own.
Lie.
Kyouko and Sayaka, too.
"I lose more 'gucas that way." — Bugs Bunnycat
Oh, geez, Tira might feel obligated to stick around and help Mami. Hopefully she can leave that to the timeline's native Tira.
Daniel Webster?
I dunno; "the universe retroactively never existed" sounds like just about the most anticlimactic thing possible. Not only does nothing happen, there isn't even a setting for anything to happen in.
Mitakihara Middle may teach "advanced" math, but I don't think they cover noncommutative algebra. Matrix multiplication, maybe.
Well, I'm sure this will never come up again.
If you aren't dropping your guard, then make some shatterwords, dangit. You've already suffered for not having enough on hand.
I still can't recall whether you care about who/whom, but if you do, these should both be "whom".
<I don't know, Tira, a witch is a big responsibility.>
This one is kind of subtle, and I'm not entirely sure that it's wrong. As I read it, there's functionally a tense mismatch between "now" (present) and "if I die" (subjunctive future). "It's now entirely possible that if I die, you will as well" or "it's entirely possible that you now will die if I do" would definitely be correct, because the "now" is outside of the subjunctive, or you can just get rid of the "now".
Aww, but it's cute!
I think that should be "judging by"? Otherwise the sentence has no verb (except in the compound nouns).
Also, I choose to believe that the humor in question is blood. Phlegm or bile would be kind of disgusting.
I think.
I think this parenthetical would flow better set off by commas rather than parentheses.
I don't think anyone defines it like that? It's either "capable of experiencing sensation" or some variant of self-aware/conscious/intelligent/etc., with the distinction between the various words being vague and inconsistent. Not that anyone has a good system for categorizing intelligence.
She played make-believe, threw a tantrum when others didn't go along with her playing make-believe, then became eagerly affectionate when she got a hug. That just sounds like a toddler. Now, I don't think there's much reason to put toddlers in a higher category of sapience than, say, dogs (never mind ravens or apes), but I can't definitively rule it out, so… careful. Especially since it's hard to distinguish incapacity from inexperience—maybe Candeloro could reacquire language and abstract thought, given the same years that it takes a normal child to learn.
Nah, hers would be a giant gun.
I disagree, but I also don't think sapience is the only—or even necessarily the primary—concern. Possession of a sufficiently human mindset to enable communication; retention of human memories and comprehension thereof; capacity for peaceful coexistence with either your barrier's inhabitants or humanity at large; etc. There is sufficient evidence to conclude that witches like Ashtaroth are not an overwhelming majority, so that part holds up at least.
The central question of this fic. Or center-justified, at least.
Just the frames, though. The pictures were nothing special, but those were some sweet frames. </s>
My answer to the Ship of Theseus problem is that continuity of identity is a convenient lie to begin with, but I don't see how that's relevant. The question here is whether you can change all but a small (though important) part of someone—real changes, not just replacing old parts with new ones which serve the same function—and say that the result is the same person, or even a person at all. And yes, I know I just said that the notion of "same person" isn't really meaningful; the question has to be approached from a more functional, common-usage perspective.
Are they? Candeloro seems to have access to at least some of Mami's memories of her friends, and to want to be with friends (or "friends"). But that's her defining aspect, and it's far from all of Mami's personality. Does Candeloro share Mami's desire to be a hero, to protect people? Her pride, her guilt? Or is it just her loneliness? Does Candeloro remember anything that was important to Mami other than the friends who left her?
We just don't have much evidence either way.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I personally think that while little miss necklace is not Mami as she used to be, she is still herself, a (rather insane) person in her own right.
A bit like returning to your home town three decades hence and finding that an old friend has not only changed greatly but also gone insane.
However, Ashys utter refusal to accept or even look for any signs of sapience that are not of the "Hello I remember how to human!" variety makes any kind of proving or disproving any theories rather challenging.
A bit like returning to your home town three decades hence and finding that an old friend has not only changed greatly but also gone insane.
However, Ashys utter refusal to accept or even look for any signs of sapience that are not of the "Hello I remember how to human!" variety makes any kind of proving or disproving any theories rather challenging.
And Tira finally gets her closure.
...right, the fake-vote:
[X] Write-in
- [X] Say that things are fine for now but you worry of what may happen next. After all the other witches you've met (even before Sayaka) made you realize witches aren't normally sapient, even if you don't know why you're the exception. Even if Candeloro and Charlotte seem calm now you don't know what may trigger their aggressivity and they can hardly be reasoned with at best, and if they suddenly attacked when a non-MG like Madoka is in the barrier you aren't sure if any of you could stop them in time.
Now I realize it raises similar points to the second vote ("Gently warn Sayaka that this may not last...") but more focused in the problems themselves instead of the stick. Not sure if putting "like Madoka" was a good idea though, not after the conversation where they decided to retract from making Madoka contract, but if anything saying "like Hitomi" would be a worse idea because it'd bring back the memories of when Sayaka became a MG and was subsumed by Ashtaroth and her breakdown.
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IvanDead
My bones are made of schadenfreude.
- Location
- Brasil
That is one of the popular definitions, so even if that is incorrect many people still use it. This is not really a surprise that a former teenage girl, who probably stopped caring about school in favor of hunting witches, would also make that mistake.
Huh, that sounds like the Grief was pushed away from Ashy but didn't leave the Barrier. That could mean it manifested somewhere inside, or Homura got hit with a big chunk of Grief.
Ah, it manifested somewhere. That could mean Shemesh is back or... I think we should visit Saars area again. She still exists and is one of the two possible beings that could manifest inside of the greater Barrier. With her, at least, we know were we could find her, unlike with Shemesh.
So both our magical girls have now pets. Sayaka has Charlotte and Tira has Candeloro. That means we either need to subsume the next Witch or recruit another magical girl soon.
Or at least the part that manifested as a being instead of a location. I still think she didn't really "lose" anything but instead got flooded with so much Grief that she got "diluted" in a sense. Part of her turned into Candeloro, and the rest got stuck in the Grief that formed her Labyrinth, which is why her memories manifested as pictures.
Maybe if we can prevent a Grief Seed from forming a Labyrinth and instead focus everything on its Witch...
Ashy keeps getting stronger with every Witch she subsumes, so the longer she can avoid that fight the more likely it is she gets something that counters Candeloro.
Or at least a way to attack that isn't dependent on ribbons.
Now that that got mentioned; how do we get a horse for Sayaka? As a knight she clearly needs a horse.
Could be because Ashy isn't really the Witch. She was the first thing the Witch of Subsumption subsumed, preventing her mind from being splintered/diluted by Grief and leaving her in charge, while the real Witch became her Witchstincts/the invisitext.
Or maybe it has something to do with her Wish, similar to every other, more or less, sapient Witch/not!Witch we see in PMMM.
That could be the location component, caused by Mami despairing inside of Ashys Labyrinth. A cosmetic aspect that's inspired by Ashy.
I suspect Candeloro still can't leave the greater Barrier though, which means Tira can't leave now too. Well, except if Candeloro let's her go but that is pretty unlikely.
But we still have Sayaka and Tira should be able to send out constructs anyway.
Ho? Is it the secret break room I speculated about a dozens updates ago?
[X] If nothing else, you think killing her off when it could be avoided would be rather hypocritical on your part. Still, you wonder why she seems so animalistic compared to yourself.
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Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
Happy to oblige! I'm not certain how to feel about the implication that this fic is literally addictive, but I'll take the implicit compliment all the same.
Ashtaroth feels rather similarly. It's almost a shame that there was no subsumption in the end; she could really use that ribbon manipulation...
Indeed — she is a clingy witch in more ways than one.
Something like that. I'm pretty sure that no matter what I do, I'm not going to be satisfied with the next chapter, but I am determined to make sure there at least IS one, even if most people have likely long since moved on from DDLC by now.
She is admittedly awfully talkative for a witch with no mouth.
You're assuming Candeloro can leave the barrier at all. Though, the answer to that question can likely be found in one of the spin offs.
Cadron: Noun, ka-dron. An accidental misspelling of "cadre" that somehow did not set off my spellcheck. ^^; Fixed!
That was actually an aside referencing this very point in the chapter proper, but which I took out because I couldn't find a good place to put it. The barrier really is just growing ever larger though, and the cast of characters along with it...
(Character sheet has been updated.)
I honestly wish I was able to write faster just so I could get to my plans for Asunaro (and other cities) sooner. I don't see that happening for quite a while, even if I focused exclusively on this fic for the next year or so, but it would be nice...
Perhaps, but... well, let's just say she may also be slightly overcompensating for something.
It IS rather humiliating to get nearly taken out by what is essentially an inanimate object. More to the point though, Ashtaroth isn't necessarily scared of Charlotte, but she certainly finds her more disconcerting than she did yesterday. Charlotte pretty much performed the ultimate jumpscare on everyone earlier, and even if that ended up being in Ashtaroth's favor, it was still rather horrifying... and the way she seems to be essentially unkillable doesn't really help either.
Familiars as random encounters, Ashtaroth and her two magical girl "minions" acting as the dungeon boss, the random secret boss encounter wandering around who knows where... this barrier is turning into a regular RPG.
Ooh. Getting territorial, are we? And here I thought Ashy was the budding harem protagonist. What a twist.
Well of course! No good harem comedy is complete without a rival/protective friend/living obstacle, after all! Just need add a few more characters to get things good and complicated, and we'll be set.
(I don't actually watch harem comedies, so I'm kind of just assuming here based off tertiary knowledge. I feel like it's a safe enough bet though.)
Speaking as the one who'd have to write said ten thousand words, let's perhaps table that for the moment. ^^;
True, but that's really not too far from egocentrism anyways, now is it?
That's the goal! Hopefully I manage to stick the landing as well as canon, assuming I ever make it to the end of this fic.
Yeesh, that's a lot this time. Fixed, and thank you!
I've uh... heard a different correlation, personally. "Survival of the flattest", to be specific, and if that's the case... well, literal-twig-Ashtaroth certainly has everyone else beat in THAT department.
Wouldn't that be better for—no. No, this is bait. I will not fall for it. I will not make the obvious joke. Your motives are transparent, and I refuse to participate in this farce.
(For those unfamiliar: Flowering Night is (one of the) theme(s) of Sakuya Izayoi, whose primary power application is timestop.)
Hence why it didn't end up getting used for Candeloro.
(I still would like to go back and edit in some music for that scene, but I've still yet to come up with something that I feel fits well enough to do so. Ah well.)
Hehe. Just FYI, the specific information Ashtaroth gets from subsuming familiars DOES have a reason behind it. I'm not just randomly selecting snippets of the full profile and redacting them. Take from that what you will.
Ashtaroth: <Ack, more parental parallels! I don't care if all witches technically count as "grown up" magical girls, I'm too young for this!>
It's a way I've heard it defined before, and it's how Ashtaroth has been inwardly defining it since the start of this fic. Won't say that's necessarily correct, but assume that's the idea she's operating under.
Very true. Ashtaroth was looking for sapience on relatively the same "level" as what she'd seen from Mami, if perhaps twisted by her new witch mentality. Since she's decided that's not what she's seeing, she's ruled it out... but she may be unintentionally ignoring other possibilities in doing so.
You're more right than you may know.
I mean, I'm not sure you can call that closure, but... well, it's something.
Heh, not a bad way of putting in, in a way. At this rate, Ashtaroth is going to need to subsume Hund Balou just for the pet-leashing powers. Then again, searching around for Hanna Sarasa probably wouldn't be a much better plan than sprinting head on at Sasa Yuuki would be...
Can't comment, but... interesting thoughts.
Or at least a way to attack that isn't dependent on ribbons.
Well, none of her actual magic DOES depend on her ribbons. The issue is more in that they kind of act as built in strings for Candeloro to puppet around should she so please.
I feel like there is an obvious answer to this in the form of Ophelia, but... well. Are you sure you want that to happen?
Well...
*growling cutely*
...I know I'd be hard pressed to call her anything else.
(Scribbled this in like ten minutes and colored it in five; might make a more touched up version at some point for better visual reference.)
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- Location
- Wayland, Massachusetts
Given the way walpurgisnacht is described this is a safe bet.
Remember, walpurgisnacht wasn't so powerful that she broke out of her barrier. Rather she was so powerful she didn't need one in the first place.
Barriers are not Witch prisons, they are hiding places. Presumably it's insanely easy to find a Witch when it's outside of its Barrier. Which makes sense considering you can just see it with your eyes, no high level sensing techniques required.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
You mean magical girls/possible magical girls can see them with their eyes.
- Location
- Unitied Kingdom
Is it just me, or does Ashtaroth's inner barrier feel like the hub world of a videogame? What with all the paths leading into holes in the sky/ground. It feel very Banjo Kazooie, or Super Mario 64-esc. All that's missing is the requirement that the 'players' clear all the 'worlds' before fighting the final boss. Not sure if its intentional or not, but I think its a nice touch.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I'm pretty sure that everyone reading that story will continue to read it wether or not they are still into DDLC.
The premise is simply to rare and to well executed not to.
All the world's a stage. Or it will be at any rate.
Is it the silliness of her magic paint brush weapon?
If I stumbled across a landmine and survived somehow, I would not be humbled or embarrassed.
"Dude, I told you that one never shoots the harmless looking doll thing. That always brings instant karma."
It is certainly part of the formula all the boring and bland ones follow. All the good ones basically do whatever they want and if it matches by chance then so be it.
Easy fix, have it be from Sayakas perspective. 50 words in and she is already making dinner plans.
[-] Attempt to sympathize. You don't think you'd really even qualify Candeloro as Mami anymore, but she clearly still means a lot to Sayaka regardless. The least you can do is be nice about it.
- Location
- Wayland, Massachusetts
Non-magical humans don't matter, they aren't a threat anyways.
Anyone of relevance can see them.
It isn't a Mario 64 hub, it's a Mario Kart track.
Considering how repulsive felt the reality outside of the barrier to Ashtaroth, I'd say it's effectively the same. If it feels anything like that to Candeloro she'd oppose fiercely to leave the barrier, and without being sapient/sentient enough she can't be reasoned with so she'll stay unwilling to leave.
Metroidwave
Strength To Lean On
- Location
- Somewhere in Colorado
I assure you it is the goof kind of addictive like... um... uh... no... um...Happy to oblige! I'm not certain how to feel about the implication that this fic is literally addictive, but I'll take the implicit compliment all the same.
Okay so I don't have a comparison right now, but rest assured it's the good kind.
IvanDead
My bones are made of schadenfreude.
- Location
- Brasil
One can even say that it's one of its central tenets.True, but that's really not too far from egocentrism anyways, now is it?
In that case, stay away from Korea. This is not going to be a good thing to be mistaken for an Instant Dungeon.
"Flat as a book, thin as a page, shallow as the ink of the words–"
Ashy:"Okay, okay! We understand, there is no need to point out the uncomfortable truths of others!"*sniff-sniff*
Chocolate and/or coffee are always safe bets.
I think another possible take is Barriers are Witch environmental habitats, the same way e.g. a submarine forms an environmental habitat for its crew.
Appletank
Acquire Cheese
Considering how it physically hurt Ashy to poke her head outside, maybe Walpurg's barrier got "big" enough there was no longer a need for an entrance since her barrier became an Area of Effect.
All fun's and games until someone figures out how to backwards long jump their way to the final room.
Omake: Subsumption the Video Game — Speedrunning Strats
- Location
- Unitied Kingdom
...Homura's strategy guide to speed-running witches with time-stop glitches, chapter 6: Temporal displacement.
"By activating time stop within close proximity of certain magical affects, such as those commonly found in a witches barrier, it becomes possible to 'clip' through the barrier without bringing either the witch or its familiars in to the time stop. An excellent example of this can be found by standing on the most bottom left-hand corner teacup in Candeloro's outer barrier, and waiting for it to clip through the ceiling. If done correctly this will allow you to walk straight to Saar's outer barrier, skipping the fight with Candeloro as well as the entirety of Charlotte's barrier, a massive time saver as not only is this one of largest/multi-layered barriers known to meguca-kind, buts its witch has a track record for dealing a swift terminal restart to magical girls who get ahead of themselves..."
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hugh_donnetono
No use to complain
- Location
- Caught Out In The Rain
(It's probably the time she tried to kill Ashy
)