Here's an interesting question, would the "soul range" increase as more and more witches/ magical girls are subsumed? as witches grow more powerful through whatever means, they can interact with the "real" world in more and more powerful ways, eventually being able to exit their barriers and simply exist, so would this effect the soul range?
 
Here's an interesting question, would the "soul range" increase as more and more witches/ magical girls are subsumed? as witches grow more powerful through whatever means, they can interact with the "real" world in more and more powerful ways, eventually being able to exit their barriers and simply exist, so would this effect the soul range?
It seems pretty arbitrary to me, so I would guess not, but stronger soul = greater projection-range does make a lot of sense.

That said, in Ashtaroth's case specifically? She seems... let's be rude and say selfish. There appears to be an element of her being a world unto herself, so I suspect that she is especially bad at leaving her barrier, to the point where it may not be possible regardless of how powerful she is, because she just doesn't grow in that direction. So I could see her not actually supporting an increased body-from-soul range even if it were otherwise possible.

Additionally, while Ashtaroth grows, her constituent parts might not. If she works as a communications hub handling the broadcasting for her girls, then it would make a lot of sense to be more effective as she grows, but if she doesn't, then the piece of Ashtaroth that is Sayaka would likely not grow any more than just-Sayaka-by-herself would have, if even that.

So I don't think so, but if it happened then I wouldn't have reason nor inclination to refute it.
 
Here's an interesting question, would the "soul range" increase as more and more witches/ magical girls are subsumed? as witches grow more powerful through whatever means, they can interact with the "real" world in more and more powerful ways, eventually being able to exit their barriers and simply exist, so would this effect the soul range?
Well, if she eats everything in the world, then she and that-which-she-subsumes will be able to interact with anything in the world. I don't think that's what you mean though.
 
It seems pretty arbitrary to me, so I would guess not, but stronger soul = greater projection-range does make a lot of sense.

That said, in Ashtaroth's case specifically? She seems... let's be rude and say selfish. There appears to be an element of her being a world unto herself, so I suspect that she is especially bad at leaving her barrier, to the point where it may not be possible regardless of how powerful she is, because she just doesn't grow in that direction. So I could see her not actually supporting an increased body-from-soul range even if it were otherwise possible.

Additionally, while Ashtaroth grows, her constituent parts might not. If she works as a communications hub handling the broadcasting for her girls, then it would make a lot of sense to be more effective as she grows, but if she doesn't, then the piece of Ashtaroth that is Sayaka would likely not grow any more than just-Sayaka-by-herself would have, if even that.

So I don't think so, but if it happened then I wouldn't have reason nor inclination to refute it.

I see where you're coming from here, but I think you are misinterpreting how Ashtaroth's selfish nature would play a role here. It would encourage Ashtaroth's powers to evolve in such a way to be able to interact with the world more so she would be able to subsume more. so I think it would make sense that the soul range would increase so that she could send "agents" to lay some groundwork for subsumption if Ashtaroth decided to follow that goal. at least, that's how I see it
 
I see where you're coming from here, but I think you are misinterpreting how Ashtaroth's selfish nature would play a role here. It would encourage Ashtaroth's powers to evolve in such a way to be able to interact with the world more so she would be able to subsume more. so I think it would make sense that the soul range would increase so that she could send "agents" to lay some groundwork for subsumption if Ashtaroth decided to follow that goal. at least, that's how I see it
Alternatively, given Ashtaroth's themes of 'egocentrism' and 'selfishness' plus her black hole imagery, it's entirely possible that as she develops she'll gain more ways to force the rest of the world to interact with her, instead.

On a thematically similar note, I can't be the only one who hates how the plot of the original series of PMMM kind of arbitrarily forces you to either butterfly it away or accept that no matter how much you try to get away from it, all other plots are inevitably suborned by the Mitakihara Clusterfuck™?
 
On a thematically similar note, I can't be the only one who hates how the plot of the original series of PMMM kind of arbitrarily forces you to either butterfly it away or accept that no matter how much you try to get away from it, all other plots are inevitably suborned by the Mitakihara Clusterfuck™?
I feel that. It's a pain.

Which is why one of my favorite PMMM fics takes place on a different planet, with the only plot concession to the original being the existence of the Law of Cycles.
 
On a thematically similar note, I can't be the only one who hates how the plot of the original series of PMMM kind of arbitrarily forces you to either butterfly it away or accept that no matter how much you try to get away from it, all other plots are inevitably suborned by the Mitakihara Clusterfuck™?
Just have a post law of cycles story instead of relying on witches for all the drama.
 
Here's an interesting question, would the "soul range" increase as more and more witches/ magical girls are subsumed? as witches grow more powerful through whatever means, they can interact with the "real" world in more and more powerful ways, eventually being able to exit their barriers and simply exist, so would this effect the soul range?

Why would it. The range a soul can be removed from the body it is currently controlling has nothing to do with Ashy.

The only way I could see that if she figured out reliable familiars, in wich case she could just give everyone a hamster for broadcasting or something.

Just have a post law of cycles story instead of relying on witches for all the drama.

And instantly lose those like me that don't want to read movie based content and have learned the hard way that anything that even vaguely mentions the possibility of the law of cycles will instantly be eaten alive by powercreep and rebellion nonsense.
 
Soo... who thinks that candeloro's familiars will react VERY badly to candeloro being subsumed? I am going to put money on them going full guerrilla warfare and becoming Rambo maids
 
On a thematically similar note, I can't be the only one who hates how the plot of the original series of PMMM kind of arbitrarily forces you to either butterfly it away or accept that no matter how much you try to get away from it, all other plots are inevitably suborned by the Mitakihara Clusterfuck™?

While the current story I'm writing is largely about butterfly effect making a mess of everything in the first place (thus letting me accept that fact).

This is why all of the other PMMM stories I've been trying to theory craft involve NOT taking place near Mitakihara or during the time period Homura is doing her thing. The world itself can be used without the specific plotline of the Anime getting involved.

But yes, the main plotline itself is a bit static and thus difficult to get away from.
 
So I've been thinking about how the time travel thing works.

And if we apply everything 100% consistently then remember that time travel doesn't cause people to duplicate.

Proof:
* there is only 1 Homura
* Ashe respawned without duplicating

Here's the thing. There were 3 people taken back with Ashe. Meaning from Homura's perspective she just went back in time and Sayaka and Mami are both mysteriously just gone without a trace or explanation. Even if Ashe herself doesn't interact with Homura ever again butterfly effect still causes them to interact indirectly.
 
That might depend on whether AsheSayaka is actually SayakaSyakka or a copy of SayakaSayaka that isn't truly the original.

I think it would be possible for two Sayakas in this scenario even accepting the time travel rules as true.
 
That might depend on whether AsheSayaka is actually SayakaSyakka or a copy of SayakaSayaka that isn't truly the original.

Ashe has Sayaka's soul gem physically in her body. And even if she doesn't Witch!Mami isn't subsumed and thus doesn't run into this issue at all.

I think it would be possible for two Sayakas in this scenario even accepting the time travel rules as true.

Well duh, You'd just need to add a special case rule covering this specific scenario. I'm just saying that if you special case nothing then Sayaka, Mami ect were teleported into Ashe's barrier from an outsiders PoV.
 
Yeah, the systems involved are ambiguous, so I don't feel confident about any interpretation, but my default assumption is very much "no clones". Although I recall seeing something in a more recent update that supported clones, though am not in a good state to reread right now so am going to be unhelpful about this.
 
I personally feel like if the current Sayaka/Tira/Loro/Charlotte were going to supersede their old versions they would've done so, like, where their old versions were? The fact that they didn't while Homura and Ashy did makes me think those four count as part of Ashy/her barrier rather than a seperate thing.
 
Here's the thing. There were 3 people taken back with Ashe. Meaning from Homura's perspective she just went back in time and Sayaka and Mami are both mysteriously just gone without a trace or explanation. Even if Ashe herself doesn't interact with Homura ever again butterfly effect still causes them to interact indirectly.
This heavily depends on if Sayaka, or anyone else that got into contact with Ashy, still counts as themself or as part of Ashy. If, for example, Sayaka's Soul Gem got diluted with so much of Ashys Grief that it's more Grief than Soul Gem, then an independent Sayaka could exist because Ashy!Sayaka traveled back as part of Ashy instead of replacing Sayaka. That would explain why Ashy!Sayaka had to be re-summoned instead of appearing in Mitakihara like Homura did.

Something similar could apply to Charlotte, Candeloro, and Saar. ...Or not, Witches are weird in this context.
Saar and Charlotte are easy to explain. Both already exist, if only as Grief Seeds, before Homura's reset point in time. Ashy didn't exist as a Witch before Homura's reset point in time and she only traveld back to the earliest point in time a Witch of Subsumption existed. It could be argued that Homura's reset point is the same moment Ashy became a Witch but that would be a big coincident.
From Ashy's perspective it looks like Witches can only travel back in time to the point their magical girl despaired. But then there is Candeloro, who exists long before Mami could turn into a Witch. And she also didn't replace Mami in Mitakihara, shown by still being in Ashys Barrier unlike Homura, despite not being subsumed by Ashy.

So this whole thing is weird. Of the two beings that we know did replace their past/alternate selfes, Homura and Ashy, we know that they traveled to the place their counterparts were in the past, with Homuar appearing in the hospital and Ashy on the outskirts of Sengeitsu City.
 
It´s not all that weird, given that those groups are clearly distinct.

Ashy and Homura are both free agents that can do whatever they please. Ashy has full control over her barrier and can go whereever she wants to.

The witches in Ashies barrier are clearly not in charge of it, as they cannot decide where it goes.
The MG in Ashy are so clearly not in charge of their selves that they can´t do anything without a by your leave.

Everything that could be argued a possession in the magical sense of a time traveller comes back with the time traveller in question, like Ashys captives, Homuras soulgem and potentially Homuras weaponry.
Everything that is an independent time traveller like Homura and now Ashy returns to the point of origin, or as early as possible if that is impossible.


Of course, that theory does nothing to answer wether there would be doubles, but I personally think there will be just for MAXIMUM DRAMA!!!!
 
Ashy and Homura are both free agents that can do whatever they please. Ashy has full control over her barrier and can go whereever she wants to.
I'm not sure how much of a free agent Ashy is. The only reason she could travel back in time was that she subsumed the most important part of Homura. So Ashy should count as an indirect time traveler, removed from the direct effect. I also don't think Ashy could initiate a jump back, unlike Homura.

The witches in Ashies barrier are clearly not in charge of it, as they cannot decide where it goes.
That's something we don't actually know. Every Witch until now was either:
  • Saar: At first focused on not destroying her flowers, then fighting Ashy, and then being subsumed.
  • Charlotte: A Grief Seed and then busy playing with her new pet Sayaka, before starting to explore the greater Barrier.
  • Candeloro: Busy hatching, then being kicked back in time, then having guests, and then fighting Ashy.
They always seemed busy with other stuff. It could be that they just left the wheel to Ashy, so to speak.

I think there also was some Invisi-text that implied that any subsumed magical girl became literally a part of Ashy. Something about explaining things to herself.

Of course, that theory does nothing to answer wether there would be doubles, but I personally think there will be just for MAXIMUM DRAMA!!!!
I'm sure there will be doubles because Ashy's companions didn't replace people in Mitakihara, like what Homura and Ashy did.
 
I'm not sure how much of a free agent Ashy is. The only reason she could travel back in time was that she subsumed the most important part of Homura. So Ashy should count as an indirect time traveler, removed from the direct effect. I also don't think Ashy could initiate a jump back, unlike Homura.
Nah when I said free agent I meant that she is free to act as she sees fit.

She is not under anyones control, so to speak.
 
This heavily depends on if Sayaka, or anyone else that got into contact with Ashy, still counts as themself or as part of Ashy.
It has been heavily, consistently, repeatedly, and, again, heavily implied that what Ashy subsumes is now also Ashy(from Ashtaroth's perspective, but Ashtaroth is kind of a very slightly omnipotent god, so what she believes...). (Which means that removing Sayaka is less a matter of reversing the process or excising a foreign object, but rather one of amputation. Sadly the "rip out her page" didn't work... maybe if she were actually inside of her page at the time? They could try getting a magical girl to rip out the page in much the same way that they would rip open a labyrinth...) This doesn't necessarily exclude them still being themselves though, unless there is some database-equivalent that I am not aware of that effectively indexes people's identities with only one entry(but alternative versions of individual people does seem to be a thing, so... the index theory does check out). There could still be only one Sayaka, with that Sayaka also being Ashtaroth. I feel as though the real questions are 1: Did Sayaka ever stop being Sayaka? Which I don't see anyone in-story opposing; and 2: Is there any Sayaka to oppose the existence of a Sayaka? Which... well there are (to my mind) hints that Ashtaroth's labyrinth is supposed to be significantly more distinct from the wider world than most labyrinth's are. A world unto itself, so to speak, when speaking thematically.

This is all massively complicated by the issue of Charlotte and Candeloro, who both likely don't exist under those identities at this time, and both had their barriers subsumed(?) into Ashtaroth's barrier, but neither of whom had their wills(?) and self-images(?) subsumed into Ashtaroth's own as Saar did, so are technically still largely free agents, and might even be able to leave the conjoined barrier based upon the example set by a certain planetoid who left upon a quest to pick up teenaged girls. It would be very interesting if Charlotte vanished, as it seems to be very likely that she was an explicit assassination effort by Kyube against Mami(it is like the critter has some personal vendetta against sustainable harvesting) and so the absence would be noticed, while conversely, Mami meeting her own witch would, well, result in a lot of confident denial, but might still involve fireworks, especially of Candeloro recognised her, or just realised that Mami had all of Candeloro's prized possessions...

It really is a messy issue, and ultimately comes down to Authorial fiat regardless of the reasoning, as basically all fiction is basically always authorial fiat...
 
I mean, you can always abstract further and further, but in the end all that that gets you is being high/ wishing to be high.

I think on this issue specifcally we have enough data to make vague theory, but until more is tested we are kind of stuck.

Wich is one of the main reasons I cannot wait for this fight scene to be over. I want time to move again, and the third fight in a day is way less interesting than a proper investigation of Homura (Tamura) powers.


New theroy:
This is Homura Tamura, wich is how Ashy hapend in the first place.
 
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This is all massively complicated by the issue of Charlotte and Candeloro, who both likely don't exist under those identities at this time, and both had their barriers subsumed(?) into Ashtaroth's barrier, but neither of whom had their wills(?) and self-images(?) subsumed into Ashtaroth's own as Saar did, so are technically still largely free agents, and might even be able to leave the conjoined barrier based upon the example set by a certain planetoid who left upon a quest to pick up teenaged girls.
Shemesh is a Familiar so he is fundamentally different compared to Charlotte or Candeloro. We only have Ashy as an example of a Witch trying to leave her own Labyrinth and Walpurgisnacht complicates everything, but I don't think a normal Witch could leave her own Labyrinth.

Given what we saw during Charlotte's hatching, it might be more accurate to say an empty Grief Seed is a not manifested Labyrinth and the corresponding Witch is only a manifestation of the Grief that got accumulated inside of the Grief Seed.

...Huh, that would explain why the Labyrinth of subsumed Witches stays around and why Ashy gets only traits based on the Witch, but not based on the Labyrinth. I wonder if the Labyrinth would stay around if a Witch got killed and turned into a Grief Seed instead of being subsumed?
 
I wonder if the Labyrinth would stay around if a Witch got killed and turned into a Grief Seed instead of being subsumed?
Going by what happened with Saar, there will never be a witch Ashtaroth kills that will have the opportunity to turn into a Grief Seed.
You shall be the first.

You rotate around to face the separated halves of the windmill witch's body. They are trying to fade away; to slip the confines of existence altogether. But your barrier's presence stabilizes her own, preventing it from unwinding with her end. Still tied to it, her soul has nowhere to go.

Don't worry…
When the witch is beaten, it'll try to collapse into a Greif Seed, but because it's already connected to Ash they can't. If left alone long enough a beaten witch might recover, but they'll never become Seeds.
 
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