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Star Wars General Discussion Thread

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I will note that, in the old EU, Luke decided that his Jedi Order would allow adherents to marry, as a direct response to what he learned about Anakin Skywalker's downfall.

Luke's New Jedi Order had its problems. But those were more its own problems than a repetition of the Coruscant Jedi's problems.
 
Astrid Fornhoff said:
But it's a fantasy story and all fantasy stories have nobility. /s

Really though, that's why.
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I know, but especially if you're looking for someone to do some audience surrogate duties like we needed, then someone in a less senior role is a good idea. Also I don't think I've over the tragic loss of Rey Nobody yet.

The being allowed to get romantic was one of the things that Trevorrow got right in his admittedly honking first draft.
 
bluntblade said:
Because we haven't got a reason to treat it as a threat.

For comparison, Romeo and Juliet lays out the reason for us to fear the consequences of the forbidden romance. In Lord of the Rings, we come to understand why Elrond is so reluctant for his daughter to be with Aragorn. It's giving us the clarity to understand our protagonists' motivations and conflicts.
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Just an aside Romeo and Juliet does not warn against forbidden romance. It warns against asshole families tearing themselves apart and backing children (just verging on being an age of being able to claim independence but not quite according to the standard of the time, this is important) into a corner where because of a blood feud that brings nothing but ruin and misery they have to hide away and make reckless choices that ultimately cost them their lives.

The message was not "stupid kids make terrible decisions, don't base your actions on love" its "Oh good God how could this be allowed to happen, how could hate make something as beautiful as love end so terribly as this?!"
 
bluntblade said:
I'd say the fall of the Jedi reads to me like they are meant to have grown complacent and inflexible. They are tragically flawed to my eyes, just as Anakin is... a bad writer's idea of what a tragic villain should be in that he's almost all flaw.
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The trouble with making "complacency" and "inflexibility" into tragic flaws is that it's a really weak writing choice. How would you dramatize these flaws? Obviously, by writing characters who take few, reactive actions, which remain basically the same actions from beginning to end. This is boring.
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Just an aside Romeo and Juliet does not warn against forbidden romance. It warns against asshole families tearing themselves apart and backing children (just verging on being an age of being able to claim independence but not quite according to the standard of the time, this is important) into a corner where because of a blood feud that brings nothing but ruin and misery they have to hide away and make reckless choices that ultimately cost them their lives.

The message was not "stupid kids make terrible decisions, don't base your actions on love" its "Oh good God how could this be allowed to happen, how could hate make something as beautiful as love end so terribly as this?!"
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It wasn't love, though. They were in curiosity-lust with one another, not love. Which makes it a very apt comparison. The rest of what you said is absolutely right, though.
 
Mace Windu: "My name is General Mace Windu, of the Jedi Order. At this point of the Clone War, I have dismantled and destroyed over 100,000 of you type 1 battle droids. I am giving you an opportunity to peacefully lay down your weapons, so that you may be reprogrammed to serve a better purpose than spreading the mindless violence and chaos which you have inflicted upon the galaxy."
Battle droid: "Blast them!"
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Well, I guess it was worth a try."

So the droids did not want to be brainwashed into becomming slaves?
Whowouldathought? :V
 
Mortis Nuntius said:
Just an aside Romeo and Juliet does not warn against forbidden romance. It warns against asshole families tearing themselves apart and backing children (just verging on being an age of being able to claim independence but not quite according to the standard of the time, this is important) into a corner where because of a blood feud that brings nothing but ruin and misery they have to hide away and make reckless choices that ultimately cost them their lives.

The message was not "stupid kids make terrible decisions, don't base your actions on love" its "Oh good God how could this be allowed to happen, how could hate make something as beautiful as love end so terribly as this?!"
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Oh, I know. My whole point was that in my view, the Jedi become partially culpable like the feuding families who never had time to hear their children's wants.

Side note: Anakin needed a Benvolio and Mercutio in the films. Dude has no friends except his mentor on the evidence of those.
 
bluntblade said:
Side note: Anakin needed a Benvolio and Mercutio in the films. Dude has no friends except his mentor on the evidence of those.
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This, I agree with. It's probably not a coincidence that Anakin (and, indeed, the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship) comes off a lot better in The Clone Wars when he has Ahsoka and Rex to bounce off of.

EDIT: he kindof has R2 in the films, but the dramatic possibilities there are somewhat limited.
 
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Valmond said:
Mace Windu: "My name is General Mace Windu, of the Jedi Order. At this point of the Clone War, I have dismantled and destroyed over 100,000 of you type 1 battle droids. I am giving you an opportunity to peacefully lay down your weapons, so that you may be reprogrammed to serve a better purpose than spreading the mindless violence and chaos which you have inflicted upon the galaxy."
Battle droid: "Blast them!"
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Well, I guess it was worth a try."

So the droids did not want to be brainwashed into becomming slaves?
Whowouldathought? :V
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I've noticed that Droids rebelling in the old EU star wars universe seemed to have a tendency to try exterminate all sentient life in the galaxy.
 
kittygirl said:
So like George Lucas doesn't like the extended canon of "his universe," and that's great, but we are talking about the movies only. Not the comic books. And BTW, Mister Mace Windu admits he just willy-nilly kills Droids, he said he killed 100,000 Droids, and the Droids are supposed to wanna surrender to a guy like that? Furthermore he says, "Reprogram you" so they can "serve a better purpose" which is not only creepy as all hell it's treating what are pretty much sentient machines as property. At least Mister Windu doesn't care about Droid liberation.

I've also never seen the Jedi promoting "individuality for the clones," and I question if that's even in the movies, but Jedi clearly have double standards. They use mind control when it suits them ("This is not the Droid you're looking for," anybody? Rey Mind Tricking that security guard?), they kill their enemies when it suits them and threaten new enemies, which is dumb. Jedi are just as violent as the Sith. At least the Sith is open and honest about it.

There's no such thing as "too much attachment." I think the Jedi are cautioning against perfectly healthy feeling. Darth Vader was worried the love of his life was gonna die. I really sympathize with him more than the Jedi who pretty much advocated just letting it happen. The Sith aren't all bad.

And I really don't think it was a lie that General Grievous was fighting for Droid liberation and y'all still haven't provided actual characters saying it's not. Mind control chips are evil, yes, but Jedi use mind control too.
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Wow, I feel a bit bad for going off on bluntblade when people like you exist.

  • George Lucas has specifically said that there were two continuities/universes since 2005, one of which was just movies, and the other of which included all the old comics and novels.
  • The Clone Wars is part of both continuities/universes
  • Disney renamed the continuity/universe without the old comics and novels "canon" and the one with "Legends"
  • All or almost all the new comics are in the "canon" continuity/universe.
What you are doing is like claiming that descriptions of the Terran Empire in Star Trek are accurate descriptions of the United Federation of Planets.

  • The implication is "I can kill you but I would prefer not to," not "I want to kill you"
  • The context is that they are (presumably) literally programmed to fight the war without free will, much like how the Sith use the inhibitor chips to remove the clones' free will.
  • Jedi promoting clone individuality is something that shows up in The Clone Wars, which covers the vast majoirty of the three years in which Jedi were fighting alongside clones. It doesn't directly appear in the movies because it is a setting detail, and they don't have time for that when telling the story of Anakin deciding to become Palpatine's slave.
  • You are using deliberate vagueness (and lack of scale) to dishonestly produce a false equivalence ("bothsame"). We see the difference between how Sidious treats Vader and how Obi-Wan treats Anakin. We see the change from a massively multispecies Jedi Council and a multispecies Republic Senate to a totalitarian dictatorship in which 99% of positions of power are held by humans. We see the Sith slaughtering Jedi children. We see Sidious abducting Force-Sensitive children to perform some kind of medical procedure to secretly mind control themwhile the Jedi try to rescue them, we see every single one of the countless clones being mind controlled by the Sith and forced to betray their friends, we see the Sith DESTROYING INHABITED PLANETS!
  • There is no virtue to honest evil over dishonest good. Good is always better than evil.
  • They aren't cautioning against healthy feelings.
  • The Jedi didn't advocate just letting it happen, he just didn't tell them any details so they couldn't help beyond trying to make it less painful! (EDIT: except their advice might have actually kept her alive because if he hadn't gone nuts with the Dark Side, he might not have murdered her)
  • Have you provided any canon evidence that Grievous is fighting for droid liberation?

EDIT: oh, right forgot a point:
  • The world is more important than your wife. If you are so attached to your wife that you would choose to destroy or enslave the world to save her, and you have the power to make that happen, then you need to be stopped, quickly, possibly by killing you.
 
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Alane1 said:
I've noticed that Droids rebelling in the old EU star wars universe seemed to have a tendency to try exterminate all sentient life in the galaxy.
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Sapient i would assume.
That said, Star Wars is generally shit when it comes to droids, they are clearly sapient (or atleast capable of becomming so), yet even the supposed good guys have little problems with keeping them as property.
 
Valmond said:
Sapient i would assume.
That said, Star Wars is generally shit when it comes to droids, they are clearly sapient (or atleast capable of becomming so), yet even the supposed good guys have little problems with keeping them as property.
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There's definitely a setting issue with how droids aren't really treated as the sapients they clearly are, by basically anyone.

(But even then the Jedi Order does relatively well. See: Mace Windu and Huyang in Age of Republic Special 1)
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
This, I agree with. It's probably not a coincidence that Anakin (and, indeed, the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship) comes off a lot better in The Clone Wars when he has Ahsoka and Rex to bounce off of.

EDIT: he kindof has R2 in the films, but the dramatic possibilities there are somewhat limited.
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Even with R2, there's hardly the kind of affection everyone showers over BB-8 in the sequels.

To be clear, this isn't me being anti-BB-8 for a second. I love that little metal terrier, and made a point of giving Jess Pava one of her own in a story.
 
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RadiantPhoenix said:
There's definitely a setting issue with how droids aren't really treated as the sapients they clearly are, by basically anyone.

(But even then the Jedi Order does relatively well. See: Mace Windu and Huyang in Age of Republic Special 1)
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You just quoted Windu promising the brainwash a bunch of droids into slaves if they surrender.
 
Valmond said:
You just quoted Windu promising the brainwash a bunch of droids into slaves if they surrender.
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  • Assuming that the battle droids are as incapable of disobeying their orders as chipped clones are of disobeying Order 66, except that the override exists in code rather than a discrete tumor/chip, what would you say is the morally correct thing to do in that situation?
  • If you think they are definitely capable of disobeying orders, please provide an example.
  • If you think it's unclear, please explain why you think the Sith wouldn't program their droids to be unable to disobey orders, given that they did do that with the clones, and apparently intended to do something like that to the Force-sensitive children they abducted in Children of the Force.
 
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If they can't disobey orders, asking them to surrender is pointless.
If they can, then forcing them to be reprogrammed to serve is enslaving sapient beings.
 
Valmond said:
If they can't disobey orders, asking them to surrender is pointless.
If they can, then forcing them to be reprogrammed to serve is enslaving sapient beings.
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Question: how do you feel about the rehabilitation and resocialization of surrendered child soldiers? That's a form of de/reprogramming.
 
Random thought: Why did Lucas style the Old Republic Jedi robe to be the same as Obi Wan's robe in New Hope? I grasp the literal explanation as to why, because the look is iconic, but I don't really get it. Even if Tatooine is a backwater, wouldn't wearing a Jedi Robe somewhat give the game away if you're a fugitive Jedi?
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Random thought: Why did Lucas style the Old Republic Jedi robe to be the same as Obi Wan's robe in New Hope? I grasp the out of character explanation as to why, because the look is iconic, but I don't really get it. Even if Tatooine is a backwater, wouldn't wearing a Jedi Robe somewhat give the game away if you're a fugitive Jedi?
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mm

Best in universe explanation I can think of is that, since Jedi robes are purposely quite unassuming, there isn't that much of a visual difference between "Jedi robes" and "shabby desert gear." Especially when the Jedi robes have been experiencing the wear and tear of years or decades in the desert.

As for what in universe rationale Lucas had...iunno?
 
Mechasaurian said:
Best in universe explanation I can think of is that, since Jedi robes are purposely quite unassuming, there isn't that much of a visual difference between "Jedi robes" and "shabby desert gear." Especially when the Jedi robes have been experiencing the wear and tear of years or decades in the desert.
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Counterpoint: Qui-Gon wears a shabby desert poncho over his regular Jedi clothes, presumably to hide them (and, unsuccessfully, to hide his lightsaber).
 
Valmond said:
Will it involve them then having "serve" a better purpose?
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Yes. Penitentiaries, cult deprogramming, and reintegration of soldiers (both child and otherwise) into civilian life are all supposed to be forms of socialization that encourage pro-social and socially-useful behavior. Many of these programs engage in skills training and job placement, for instance, whether in place of or in addition to various forms of therapy. (I say "supposed to be" because frequently the institutions in reality fall far short of the claimed objective, and indeed often fail to pursue it at all.)
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Random thought: Why did Lucas style the Old Republic Jedi robe to be the same as Obi Wan's robe in New Hope? I grasp the literal explanation as to why, because the look is iconic, but I don't really get it. Even if Tatooine is a backwater, wouldn't wearing a Jedi Robe somewhat give the game away if you're a fugitive Jedi?
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Pretty sure Expounded Universe beat you to this one by years.

their jokes about "I guess Jedi Chic is all the rage in Tatooinian fashion" were fun.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
Pretty sure Expounded Universe beat you to this one by years.

their jokes about "I guess Jedi Chic is all the rage in Tatooinian fashion" were fun.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Plinkett mentioned it as well ages ago in one of the prequel reviews. I was just curious if there was any attempt at explanation.
 
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