Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[bluntblade]

• They aren't obligated to remain Jedi. They're allowed to leave, just like data entry specialists.
• Normally Jedi don't become Padawans (the earliest stage of actually going out and doing stuff) until they're teenagers (or, presumably equivalent). (See: Ahsoka being considered young for a Padawan at 14 in The Clone Wars, the movie)
• Before becoming padawans, they're basically just adopted and being raised in an environment that has experience dealing their psychic/magic abilities (see: Baby Yoda's Force choke), isn't prejudiced against them (See: Dooku left to the wolves for being a "Freak"), and will protect them from kidnappers (see: "Children of the Force" in The Clone Wars series).

So it sounds like they already do the thing you're asking them to do.


Palpatine's rise to power was laid out before Return of the Jedi: the people of the Republic didn't care enough to elect competent officials.

Article:

But eventually the citizens of the Republic "didn't care enough to elect competent officials", says Lucas the historian, and so their government collapsed. A sorcerer, a bad counterpart of Yoda, blocked all opposition and declared himself Emperor

Source: May 19th 1980 Time Magazine

Palpatine's rise was enabled by voters who wanted to be promised easy solutions rather than "trudging up the hill"

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But they're being raised with at least the implicit expectation that they will serve. It's the norm for them; the vast majority of their peers will be conforming to that expectation.

Being raised in that environment and allowed to leave is drastically different to being approached when you've had a relatively normal childhood and offered this choice.

Side note: I'd like to see more instances of Force-sensitive people who didn't get or, more pertinently, didn't chose a Jedi or any kind of spiritual path.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

But they're being raised with at least the implicit expectation that they will serve. It's the norm for them; the vast majority of their peers will be conforming to that expectation.

Being raised in that environment and allowed to leave is drastically different to being approached when you've had a relatively normal childhood and offered this choice.

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Are you trying to say that a community devoted to helping others shouldn't be allowed to raise children?

 

[bluntblade]

Are you trying to say that a community devoted to helping others shouldn't be allowed to raise children?

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I'm saying that it would be like if children were chosen on some criteria to be firefighters/soldiers/police, with some additional restrictions thrown into their lives. You're raising children from infanthood to take on these immense burdens, with the implicit promise that if the Republic is threatened then they will lay down their lives for it.

There's a great bit in one of the ASoIaF books where an old member of the Kingsguard reflects on a boy being admitted to its ranks as a mere 13-year-old. He seems this too young for the entrant to understand how much he is giving up. That is only magnified if, for as long as you could walk and talk, you were treated as though this was the path your life would take.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

I'm saying that it would be like if children were chosen on some criteria to be firefighters/soldiers/police, with some additional restrictions thrown into their lives. You're raising children from infanthood to take on these immense burdens, with the implicit promise that if the Republic is threatened then they will lay down their lives for it.

There's a great bit in one of the ASoIaF books where an old member of the Kingsguard reflects on a boy being admitted to its ranks as a mere 13-year-old. He seems this too young for the entrant to understand how much he is giving up. That is only magnified if, for as long as you could walk and talk, you were treated as though this was the path your life would take.

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I think you're going to have to elaborate, because if you aren't saying what I thought you were saying, it's not coming through.

Children are always going to be somewhat shaped by who brings them up, and if they're brought up by a community of people who genuinely enjoy their jobs of selflessly helping others, often at great personal risk, it's pretty impractical to avoid them growing up expecting that they're going to grow up doing similar things.

In other words, I think that your argument implies that communities of people who genuinely enjoy their jobs of selflessly helping others, often at great personal risk, should not be allowed to raise children, and I am deeply uncomfortable with that conclusion, particularly because we don't prohibit assholes from raising children.

EDIT: Your argument sounds like a more extreme version of saying that military veterans shouldn't be allowed to adopt.

 

[IlumMoss]

Before the clone wars the Jedi also weren't soldier. While they on a decent amount of away missions might be at risk of having to fight, it was probably far from all of them. And there seems to be other jobs within the order, like Jocasta Nu and her post as librarian.

 

[bluntblade]

I think you're going to have to elaborate, because if you aren't saying what I thought you were saying, it's not coming through.

Children are always going to be somewhat shaped by who brings them up, and if they're brought up by a community of people who genuinely enjoy their jobs of selflessly helping others, often at great personal risk, it's pretty impractical to avoid them growing up expecting that they're going to grow up doing similar things.

In other words, I think that your argument implies that communities of people who genuinely enjoy their jobs of selflessly helping others, often at great personal risk, should not be allowed to raise children, and I am deeply uncomfortable with that conclusion, particularly because we don't prohibit assholes from raising children.

EDIT: Your argument sounds like a more extreme version of saying that military veterans shouldn't be allowed to adopt.

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It's more extreme than being brought up by veterans, it's essentially growing up in a situation where all your career options are some part of that institution. It's signing up to no "possessive relationships" like marriages, decades before the point in your life where that might appeal. You're being raised to fulfill the needs of the Order.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

It's more extreme than being brought up by veterans, it's essentially growing up in a situation where all your career options are some part of that institution. It's signing up to no "possessive relationships" like marriages, decades before the point in your life where that might appeal. You're being raised to fulfill the needs of the Order.

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Jedi.

Are.

Allowed.

To.

Leave.

What, do you think thirteen-years olds should be marrying?

 

[Night]

edi.

Are.

Allowed.

To.

Leave.

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Yes, they're allowed to leave when they're raised from being toddlers.

Come the fuck on. That's no panacea. The Order is literally all they've ever known. It is not only their norm but their life's work. Saying "well they can just walk out" is like saying "well you can just walk out" on everything you've ever known. A lot of people never manage that even when it comes with being actively beaten, or is literally killing them by inches. It's giant, difficult, and terrifying.

 

[bluntblade]

Jedi.

Are.

Allowed.

To.

Leave.

What, do you think thirteen-years olds should be marrying?

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No I don't. My point is that by the time they might consider it, they're leading a life which is incompatible with it.

And what is there for a former Jedi? Where does their education allow them to find a niche? It's closing off a huge part of the spectrum of human experience, implicitly.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Yes, they're allowed to leave when they're raised from being toddlers.

Come the fuck on. That's no panacea. The Order is literally all they've ever known. It is not only their norm but their life's work. Saying "well they can just walk out" is like saying "well you can just walk out" on everything you've ever known. A lot of people never manage that even when it comes with being actively beaten, or is literally killing them by inches. It's giant, difficult, and terrifying.

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That is a feature of growing up in a community, and Jedi probably have an easier time with it because they are specifically trained from early childhood to be able to let go of life as it is now, which is literally the thing you are talking about.

No I don't. My point is that by the time they might consider it, they're leading a life which is incompatible with it.

And what is there for a former Jedi? Where does their education allow them to find a niche? It's closing off a huge part of the spectrum of human experience, implicitly.

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We have more Movie evidence for Jedi getting any education at all, much less a well-rounded one applicable to a variety of walks of life, than we do for any other culture except for Clones.

What huge part of the spectrum of human experience are you talking about?

 

[bluntblade]

That is a feature of growing up in a community, and Jedi probably have an easier time with it because they are specifically trained from early childhood to be able to let go of life as it is now, which is literally the thing you are talking about.

We have more Movie evidence for Jedi getting any education at all, much less a well-rounded one applicable to a variety of walks of life, than we do for any other culture except for Clones.

What huge part of the spectrum of human experience are you talking about?

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Yeah, the bit where they're educated in bollocks physics (a planet does not exert that much pull over multiple stars) and sword-fighting. Really fits them for a life outside the border, should they choose it.

The bit where you can shack up with someone, have and raise children, build a family. That huge part.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

And what is there for a former Jedi? Where does their education allow them to find a niche? It's closing off a huge part of the spectrum of human experience, implicitly.

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I don't know any of the EU, but going by the films alone, "leading a major Galactic power" is on the table.

(a planet does not exert that much pull over multiple stars)

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A star system, however, does. The dialogue is imprecise, but it's pretty clear that the whole Kaminoan system was wiped from the records. It just gets referred to by its inhabited planet because that's where everything interesting happens.

 

[bluntblade]

I don't know any of the EU, but going by the films alone, "leading a major Galactic power" is on the table.


A star system, however, does. The dialogue is imprecise, but it's pretty clear that the whole Kaminoan system was wiped from the records. It just gets referred to by its inhabited planet because that's where everything interesting happens.

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On the first point, that raises its own questions but also wasn't that a Sith?

In the second, fair enough.

 

[Renewal]

On the first point, that raises its own questions but also wasn't that a Sith?

In the second, fair enough.

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Dooku wasn't recognized as a Sith until the Clone Wars broke out, yet his leadership of both Serenno and the pre-war Separatists didn't seem to be perceived as highly unusual. Jedi are highly educated and also familiar with the Republic's machinations, which isn't the worst background to have.

 

[bluntblade]

Dooku wasn't recognized as a Sith until the Clone Wars broke out, yet his leadership of both Serenno and the pre-war Separatists didn't seem to be perceived as highly unusual. Jedi are highly educated and also familiar with the Republic's machinations, which isn't the worst background to have.

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I guess, though I still don't think it undies the fundamental issues I have with raising kids from a young age to buy into all these restrictions, implicit or otherwise.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

I guess, though I still don't think it undies the fundamental issues I have with raising kids from a young age to buy into all these restrictions, implicit or otherwise.

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Raising children in any society is the process of getting them to buy into all sorts of restrictions - of socialization. The objection must therefore be to either these people socializing children, or to socializing children in these particular norms, not to the process of socialization itself.

 

[Axslashel]

Raising children in any society is the process of getting them to buy into all sorts of restrictions - of socialization. The objection must therefore be to either these people socializing children, or to socializing children in these particular norms, not to the process of socialization itself.

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I thought the problem with the Jedi Order raising force sensitive kids is that they are separated from their parents. Send out Jedi to teach them at their homes or if they absolutely have to go to Coruscant bring the parents with them or something at least until they are teenagers or something.

 

[bluntblade]

Raising children in any society is the process of getting them to buy into all sorts of restrictions - of socialization. The objection must therefore be to either these people socializing children, or to socializing children in these particular norms, not to the process of socialization itself.

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To be clear, it's a mix of the two on my part.

I think Earthsea provides ideas for a decent alternative. A Jedi finds a promising kid, establishes some rapport, and says they'll come back when the child is old enough to choose.

 

[Ithillid]

At least to me, the ideal solution is not banning the Jedi from taking in force sensitive children, but actually giving them all the non force sensitive unwanted children and orphans. Have the Jedi to be growing up alongside those who are never going to be Jedi.
Because yes, not every force sensitive is cut out to be a jedi or a member of one of the service corps. On the other hand, the Jedi are, by and large, good people who are concerned for much more than their own self interest. Making it easier to leave the order is definitely a bonus, alongside creating populations that are, while not actually Jedi, conversant in the philosophy, and more than likely friendly to the order.

 

[bluntblade]

At least to me, the ideal solution is not banning the Jedi from taking in force sensitive children, but actually giving them all the non force sensitive unwanted children and orphans. Have the Jedi to be growing up alongside those who are never going to be Jedi.
Because yes, not every force sensitive is cut out to be a jedi or a member of one of the service corps. On the other hand, the Jedi are, by and large, good people who are concerned for much more than their own self interest. Making it easier to leave the order is definitely a bonus, alongside creating populations that are, while not actually Jedi, conversant in the philosophy, and more than likely friendly to the order.

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I like this idea a great deal. It would make the Jedi more worldly and obviously compassionate.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Yeah, the bit where they're educated in bollocks physics (a planet does not exert that much pull over multiple stars) and sword-fighting. Really fits them for a life outside the border, should they choose it.

The bit where you can shack up with someone, have and raise children, build a family. That huge part.

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• The thing they do actually works, so whatever they're doing isn't bullshit in their universe.
• Jedi are allowed to have sex.
• We only see one pregnant person in the first six episodes, and that's Padme, and it's implied that it would be a scandal if it got out and she could lose her job.
• Jedi have (mostly adopted) children.
• Jedi are a (found, not blood) family.

Try again.

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

"A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."

What's funny about this line, is that in the Star Wars galaxy, this can apply to several species. And they're birth would not be anything special.

 

[bluntblade]

• The thing they do actually works, so whatever they're doing isn't bullshit in their universe.
• Jedi are allowed to have sex.
• We only see one pregnant person in the first six episodes, and that's Padme, and it's implied that it would be a scandal if it got out and she could lose her job.
• Jedi have (mostly adopted) children.
• Jedi are a (found, not blood) family.

Try again.

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And almost nothing of that is demonstrated in the films. Even in what I've seen of the Clone Wars, it's friendships I see between Jedi, not sibling-level intensity. With Padme we just get "I'm a Senator ad nauseum and yeah, maybe scandal, but Lucas' masterful subtlety stops at "we shouldn't be in love!"

Again, this is where giving Anakin some friends and some aspirations apart from being "the most powerful Jedi ever" would be hugely helpful. The Jedi of the prequels don't have ideals, they just have allegiances.

I'm really struggling to find the words for what a huge restriction is to be told that you cannot, without special dispensation, sire children. Like, that's such a fundamental urge for so many people. None of that's to knock adoption, OBVIOUSLY. But... you know? It's a colossal restriction. And if one day you meet that special someone and you want to do those things with them, it comes with the condition of turning your back on everything you know.

I just find that a little bit unkind.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

And almost nothing of that is demonstrated in the films. Even in what I've seen of the Clone Wars, it's friendships I see between Jedi, not sibling-level intensity. With Padme we just get "I'm a Senator ad nauseum and yeah, maybe scandal, but Lucas' masterful subtlety stops at "we shouldn't be in love!"

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What would it take to demonstrate sibling-level intensity to you? What do you think siblings do?

EDIT:

"A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."

What's funny about this line, is that in the Star Wars galaxy, this can apply to several species. And they're birth would not be anything special.

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Oh, we actually know something about the prophecy beyond vagueness and destroying the Sith? Where did this come from?

 

[bluntblade]

What would it take to demonstrate sibling-level intensity to you? What do you think siblings do?

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Genuine emotional intimacy and a sense that they're anything more than colleagues in the films. I know the depth of my relationship with my little brother, and I can look to the found families of the other trilogies which, with the exception of Episode IX, I find believable in ways that I never did Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship no matter how hard McGreggor tried.