Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[RadiantPhoenix]

Like, the whole fucking point about episode 6 was that there was good left in Vader, and Luke could pull it out because Vader was still attached to his children.
Attachments were what saved (kinda, sorta, in a way, if you squint a bit) Anakin from the dark side.
Now imagine a world where Anakin was not forced to leave his mother, was provided therapy and emmotional support, and had the Jedi listen when he spoke about his visions.

Like, i get the argument that Jedi can't go on a crusade to free all the slaves everywhere all the time.
But that does not mean they can't free this one, right here, right now.

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I'ma work back to front:

• In the short run, Qui-Gon does attempt to free Shmi, but an entire planet is on the line and he kinda needs to get moving.
• In the long run, it's never stated when Cliegg bought Shmi's freedom, but it did happen, it's just nobody told Anakin.
• Even if they had told him, being no longer a slave didn't stop her from being in danger.
• Anakin did get emotional support from Obi-Wan and Yoda. He just didn't open up to them like you need to do for therapy and didn't manage to follow the advice they did have enough information to provide.
• Attachment pulled Anakin out of the Dark Side, but it was also what got him into the Dark Side. If he weren't driven mad by Attachment, he wouldn't have needed redeeming in the first place!
• Alternatively, if he was able to face his own emotions and wasn't a horrible person, he would have stopped serving Palpatine's evil empire once Palpatine told him Padme and her child were dead!

EDIT: note: all of these are part of the central plot of the movie and explained by applying common sense to what's shown on-screen.

 

[bluntblade]

And I am not saying and have never said that the Jedi were rotten. I said that as per any tragic hero, they were flawed and the villains preyed upon these and their virtues.

 

[Valmond]

• In the short run, Qui-Gon does attempt to free Shmi, but an entire planet is on the line and he kinda needs to get moving.
• In the long run, it's never stated when Cliegg bought Shmi's freedom, but it did happen, it's just nobody told Anakin.
• Even if they had told him, being no longer a slave didn't stop her from being in danger.
• Anakin did get emotional support from Obi-Wan and Yoda. He just didn't open up to them like you need to do for therapy and didn't manage to follow the advice they did have enough information to provide.
• Attachment pulled Anakin out of the Dark Side, but it was also what got him into the Dark Side. If he weren't driven mad by Attachment, he wouldn't have needed redeeming in the first place!
• Alternatively, if he was able to face his own emotions and wasn't a horrible person, he would have stopped serving Palpatine's evil empire once Palpatine told him Padme and her child were dead!

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1. He could have come back later.
2. Why the fuck was Anakin not told?
3. She could have been provided with means to find a better place to live.
4. Well he clearly did not feel able to open up to them, so i'm going to say, not enough support.
5. Would he have fallen if he had not to stress if hiding significant portion of himself from pretty much everyone in his life?
6. What does this have to do with anything?

 

[FortePlus]

I thought it was fairly clear that it's a defensive weapon?

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Like...not at all, no. It's a sword. At first glance you're not going to get "defense" from it, especially if you're unfamiliar with weapons outside of "sword go swoosh" and "laser go brrr".
Also I feel like a shield would like, fit those purposes just as well? You can very easily make compact shield technology, even with the same properties as a lightsaber if you idk turn it on its side or something and attack like that. You can have all kinds of force applications there, too I guess? There's also the symbolism you get from dudes who have shields, or shields on their backs. Defenders? There's a visual advantage, too.

But shields aren't as easy to do combat for so. I just assume that Lucas wanted to do space samurai and swords fit.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

And I am not saying and have never said that the Jedi were rotten. I said that as per any tragic hero, they were flawed and the villains preyed upon these and their virtues.

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The flaws in the Jedi Order that Palpatine exploited on-screen had nothing to do with romance, except maybe towards clones.

1. He could have come back later.
2. Why the fuck was Anakin not told?
3. She could have been provided with means to find a better place to live.
4. Well he clearly did not feel able to open up to them, so i'm going to say, not enough support.
5. Would he have fallen if he had not to stress if hiding significant portion of himself from pretty much everyone in his life?
6. What does this have to do with anything?

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1. No he couldn't, he was dead
2. He never asked. In fact, he specifically told Obi-Wan that he would rather dream of Padme than Shmi!
3. She was married to Cliegg and Cliegg was a farmer. They can't just pick up and move
4. Or, you know, he rejects them. Because Star Wars characters have choices
5. Given that his first Fall happened before they married? Either "Yes, he would have because he fucking did" or "they already knew about his relationship with his mother. He didn't have to keep his fears secret, because they weren't secret."
6. Because Vader was Vader for about twenty years between Padme's death and learning about Luke! If he weren't a terrible person, he wouldn't need Luke to manipulate him into doing better using his Attachment!

I just assume that Lucas wanted to do space samurai and swords fit.

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I believe I've seen WoG to this effect, but I don't have a source handy.

 

[Valmond]

1. No he couldn't, he was dead
2. He never asked. In fact, he specifically told Obi-Wan that he would rather dream of Padme than Shmi!
3. She was married to Cliegg and Cliegg was a farmer. They can't just pick up and move
4. Or, you know, he rejects them. Because Star Wars characters have choices
5. Given that his first Fall happened before they married? Either "Yes, he would have because he fucking did" or "they already knew about his relationship with his mother. He didn't have to keep his fears secret, because they weren't secret."
6. Because Vader was Vader for about twenty years between Padme's death and learning about Luke! If he weren't a terrible person, he wouldn't need Luke to manipulate him into doing better using his Attachment!

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1. Fine, someone else could have come back.
2. So? Some things should not need to be asked about.
3. Why not? People move and change jobs all the time. Did anyone ask? And why is Cliegg telling Shmi where she can and can't go, i thought she was no longer a slave?
4. The characters are just that, characters, they get no choices. And even then, choices don't exist in a vacuum.
5. First fall? I was not aware the darkside is like stairs where you keep falling from one step to another.
6. Again, what does this have to do with anything?

 

[bluntblade]

Palpatine exploited the prohibition on romance which ensured that he was the only person Anakin could go to with these problems.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

1. Fine, someone else could have come back.
2. So? Some things should not need to be asked about.
3. Why not? People move and change jobs all the time. Did anyone ask? And why is Cliegg telling Shmi where she can and can't go, i thought she was no longer a slave?
4. The characters are just that, characters, they get no choices. And even then, choices don't exist in a vacuum.
5. First fall? I was not aware the darkside is like stairs where you keep falling from one step to another.
6. Again, what does this have to do with anything?

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1. We aren't shown whether or not they did.
2. Anakin is shown on-screen telling Obi-Wan that he doesn't want to think about his mother!
3. Marriage is a different form of possessive relationship from slavery. That being said, it wouldn't be Cliegg telling Shmi where she can and can't go, it would be Cliegg telling Shmi where Cliegg will and won't go. Shmi would just be choosing to stay with him.
4. Ah, yes, no character has any moral weight attached to their actions because they are fictional characters being written by an author. A most useful tool for analyzing fiction.
5. When he massacres the Tusken Raiders, long before he becomes Vader. (and yes, Sith do keep falling, and keep choosing to keep falling and remain falling/fallen.)
6. Whether Vader could have pulled his own ass out of being The Worst if he weren't such a terrible person is relevant because you were arguing that Vader's Attachment was good because it allowed Luke to manipulate him out of being The Worst.

Palpatine exploited the prohibition on romance which ensured that he was the only person Anakin could go to with these problems.

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Anakin could have left if being a Jedi were less important to him than his marriage or whatever with Padme, he just chose not to because he's greedy.

 

[Valmond]

1. We aren't shown whether or not they did.
2. Anakin is shown on-screen telling Obi-Wan that he doesn't want to think about his mother!
3. Marriage is a different form of possessive relationship from slavery. That being said, it wouldn't be Cliegg telling Shmi where she can and can't go, it would be Cliegg telling Shmi where Cliegg will and won't go. Shmi would just be choosing to stay with him.
4. Ah, yes, no character has any moral weight attached to their actions because they are fictional characters being written by an author. A most useful tool for analyzing fiction.
5. When he massacres the Tusken Raiders, long before he becomes Vader. (and yes, Sith do keep falling, and keep choosing to keep falling and remain falling/fallen.)
6. Whether Vader could have pulled his own ass out of being The Worst if he weren't such a terrible person is relevant because you were arguing that Vader's Attachment was good because it allowed Luke to manipulate him out of being The Worst.

Anakin could have left if being a Jedi were less important to him than his marriage or whatever with Padme, he just chose not to because he's greedy.

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1. That's a shitty argument. Hell, maybe the Jedi are all married and having orgies but nobody told Anakin because they think him creepy.
2. Again, not an excuse.
3. Shmi is not a slave, she can make a choice to leave if provided one. No option was given. And someone buying a slave and then marrying them has plenty of problematic undertones as is.
4. You are really buying that straw at bulk rates.
5. That is long after many of the issues brought up.
6. That does not actually follow.

 

[bluntblade]

I don't think Anakin is being greedy in wanting to be a Jedi. He's in it for the ideals. He wants to free slaves, for God's sake.

 

[Mechasaurian]

The Coruscanti Jedi were neither complete monsters, nor perfect paragons of good.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

1. That's a shitty argument. Hell, maybe the Jedi are all married and having orgies but nobody told Anakin because they think him creepy.
2. Again, not an excuse.
3. Shmi is not a slave, she can make a choice to leave if provided one. No option was given. And someone buying a slave and then marrying them has plenty of problematic undertones as is.
4. You are really buying that straw at bulk rates.
5. That is long after many of the issues brought up.
6. That does not actually follow.

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1. There's a 10 year time skip there that the movies don't cover. It's not important enough to feature in a movie.
2. Um, no, if someone tells you "I don't want to think about X," that's actually usually a perfectly good reason not to talk about X if you'd also rather not talk about it.
3. I mean, yes that kind of marriage is problematic, but that's not a Jedi thing
4. You literally fucking said "The characters are just that, characters, they get no choices." Don't you go claiming I'm attacking a strawman for pointing out how that's not a useful way of analyzing characters.
5. It's before the marriage issue happens, and the Council knew that Anakin was some level of attached to Shmi in The Phantom Menace! He could have talked about his mother before the massacre without revealing anything that might get him in serious trouble because they already knew
6. You: "Attachment is good because it's how Luke brought Vader back from being The Worst"
   Me: "If Vader weren't a terrible person it would have been completely unnecessary, and it was also what got him into being The Worst."
   
   Just because something is eventually self-limiting doesn't mean it isn't a problem! If your house is burning down, that's a self-limiting problem, but it's still a bad thing!
   
   Darth Vader is a picture perfect example of why the Jedi Order forbids Attachment!

I don't think Anakin is being greedy in wanting to be a Jedi. He's in it for the ideals. He wants to free slaves, for God's sake.

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He's greedy because he wants to both a Jedi, who "must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind." (The Phantom Menace) and put Padme above the entire galaxy!

... actually, just putting Padme above the entire galaxy makes him greedy, but even before that, he was trying to be two contradictory things (Married and a Jedi).

EDIT:

The Coruscanti Jedi were neither complete monsters, nor perfect paragons of good.

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See, this is the kind of claim where it definitely isn't unreasonable to go digging through all the canon material that's been published since Disney declared all future things to be canon unless otherwise specified.

It's not about the plot of the movies, it's about the setting.

 

[bluntblade]

Why's it so greedy to not want to forego something which most of us think of as integral to the human/Togruta/Twi'lek/Wookie condition?

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Why's it so greedy to not want to forego something which most of us think of as integral to the human/Togruta/Twi'lek/Wookie condition?

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The point is that he wants to be a Jedi without following the rules of being a Jedi.

He could have:

• Left the Order to work with Senator Amidala on making the Republic better (e.g.: doing more to combat slavery).
• Talked to Obi-Wan and gotten help learning to love Senator Amidala without attachment or possession, which is explicitly allowed.
• Talked to Obi-Wan and explained his inner conflict and maybe figured out a loophole or gotten an exception made.
• (Not actually following the rules) talked to Obi-Wan when Padme asked him to and gotten some support from Obi-Wan rather than going it alone.

 

[bluntblade]

But this keeps coming back to the Jedi being inflexible, as far as we can tell by just watching the films. The prequels are visually sterile and sexless, which only adds to that impression.

And what are we meant to infer about the consequences of their forbidden love except that it would force Anakin into this horrible bind? Are we meant to go "man, he's bad at communication" or, as he's one of our protagonists, are we going to say "he must have a good reason to not mention it"?

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Related: I have a negative emotional response to the word "inflexible" used to describe people, because I'm used to it being used to mean, "you (the person described as inflexible) are a bad person for not doing whatever I tell you to do"

But this keeps coming back to the Jedi being inflexible, as far as we can tell by just watching the films. The prequels are visually sterile and sexless, which only adds to that impression.

And what are we meant to infer about the consequences of their forbidden love except that it would force Anakin into this horrible bind? Are we meant to go "man, he's bad at communication" or, as he's one of our protagonists, are we going to say "he must have a good reason to not mention it"?

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Visually sterile: Could you post some pictures of what you mean by sterile?

"Inflexible": The Council in The Phantom Menace says they aren't going to train Anakin. Then they change their minds. Could you list some things that you feel the Jedi are being inflexible about?

And... Anakin does plenty of terrible things for no good reason. You can't just assume that Anakin's reasons for doing things are always good, because they clearly aren't! The prequels have a protagonist who is not a reliably good, sensible, or sane person!

Sure, sometimes Anakin has a good reason for things, but you have to actually figure out what his reason is and think about whether his reasons are good, because you can't depend on it!

 

[Valmond]

1. There's a 10 year time skip there that the movies don't cover. It's not important enough to feature in a movie.
2. Um, no, if someone tells you "I don't want to think about X," that's actually usually a perfectly good reason not to talk about X if you'd also rather not talk about it.
3. I mean, yes that kind of marriage is problematic, but that's not a Jedi thing
4. You literally fucking said "The characters are just that, characters, they get no choices." Don't you go claiming I'm attacking a strawman for pointing out how that's not a useful way of analyzing characters.
5. It's before the marriage issue happens, and the Council knew that Anakin was some level of attached to Shmi in The Phantom Menace! He could have talked about his mother before the massacre without revealing anything that might get him in serious trouble because they already knew
6. You: "Attachment is good because it's how Luke brought Vader back from being The Worst"
   Me: "If Vader weren't a terrible person it would have been completely unnecessary, and it was also what got him into being The Worst."
   
   Just because something is eventually self-limiting doesn't mean it isn't a problem! If your house is burning down, that's a self-limiting problem, but it's still a bad thing!
   
   Darth Vader is a picture perfect example of why the Jedi Order forbids Attachment!

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1. If it was not shown, it did not happen.
2. Sometimes people need to be told about things they don't want to be told, especially when they are not in posession of all the information, even more so when they are children.
3. No, but using it as an excuse for why the Jedi would not try to help someone makes it a Jedi thing.
4. Which was then followed by pointing out that decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Which you somehow conveniently ignored.
5. Talk about attachments with people who keep telling him that attachments are bad? Suuure, the boy just deprived of the only family he had will get right on it.
6. Episode 6 made it clear that Vader could be pulled out from the dark side thanks to attachments he had. Vader not having done so before is irrelevant to the point.
Had Anakin had proper emmotional support, therapy, and if the Jedi order did not have the issues it had, he quite possibly would not have fallen in the first place.
Vader is a perfect example of what happens when you forbid attachments, bring in people who already have attachments, and have no way to actually deal with those attachments.

 

[bluntblade]

It's more in the editing and cinematography than individual shots. Overall the films aren't very kinetic or emotive, and they're shot in very impersonal ways, keeping you at an emotional distance from the characters. Consider how Episode VIII turns Paige Tico into the main character for the last minute of her life by sticking you right in the middle of her emotions, and how in Episode I no one really feels like the main character because Lucas doesn't do that.

 

[bluntblade]

1. If it was not shown, it did not happen.
2. Sometimes people need to be told about things they don't want to be told, especially when they are not in posession of all the information, even more so when they are children.
3. No, but using it as an excuse for why the Jedi would not try to help someone makes it a Jedi thing.
4. Which was then followed by pointing out that decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Which you somehow conveniently ignored.
5. Talk about attachments with people who keep telling him that attachments are bad? Suuure, the boy just deprived of the only family he had will get right on it.
6. Episode 6 made it clear that Vader could be pulled out from the dark side thanks to attachments he had. Vader not having done so before is irrelevant to the point.
Had Anakin had proper emmotional support, therapy, and if the Jedi order did not have the issues it had, he quite possibly would not have fallen in the first place.
Vader is a perfect example of what happens when you forbid attachments, bring in people who already have attachments, and have no way to actually deal with those attachments.

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I mildly disagree with "if it's not shown it didn't happen" because you can imply change between films. The IV-V timeskip is a good example (and I consider it one of the great failings of IX that it didn't jump to a point where Rey, Finn, Rose, Chewie and Poe are all a tight-knit crew who've been doing cool stuff for two years). But Lucas' 10 years is a bad idea because we have to meet Anakin all over again.

 

[Night]

... actually, just putting Padme above the entire galaxy makes him greedy, but even before that, he was trying to be two contradictory things (Married and a Jedi).

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This isn't actually contradictory considering someone on the Council is also married, admittedly because of their species' difficulties with reproduction but still. Or going outside the movies the existence of divergent, unpersecuted Force traditions both within the Order (the Corellians) and outside it.

Like, one of the basic observations to be made of the movies is the Jedi have no mechanisms to enforce orthodoxy. They don't send the Jedi Cops to arrest you for breaking the rules or trying to leave or believing the wrong things. They don't have Jedi Cops for policing Jedi. If they did then there would have been an irresistible narrative logic to showing them considering the path the movies took. But that's not what happens. They're nowhere to be found.

When your path diverges from the Order's, you leave of your own free will, and they put up a bust of you in the archives and consider it one of their greatest failures that they could not offer you what it is you sought. The consequences for Anakin getting caught out on being attached (like attachment isn't rampant in the Order between padawans and masters at the least) are...what? He seems to think he'll get thrown out but nobody in a position of authority actually backs up this idea, nor does it seem consistent with positions taken by the Council in the movies. They're measured, not assholes. And Anakin's one of their best. They're in a war. They need strong saber arms more than they need absolute orthodoxy. They've admitted as much about Anakin before.

So honestly, yes, it comes off as Anakin being terrible at communicating more than it does he's a smart dude who knows what he's doing. It helps that the movies demonstrate he's not a smart dude and doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[Valmond]

I mildly disagree with "if it's not shown it didn't happen" because you can imply change between films. The IV-V timeskip is a good example (and I consider it one of the great failings of IX that it didn't jump to a point where Rey, Finn, Rose, Chewie and Poe are all a tight-knit crew who've been doing cool stuff for two years). But Lucas' 10 years is a bad idea because we have to meet Anakin all over again.

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Well i may have exaggerated.
But if something is not referred to in some way, trying to claim it happen is poor form.
Sure, some things can be inferred.
Like usually people who exist had parents, generally if people are in a place they were not previously they must have travelled there somehow, and so on.
But something at the level "Jedi checked on Shmi ofscreen and nobody ever mentions it" is not reasonable argument imo.

 

[bluntblade]

Well i may have exaggerated.
But if something is not referred to in some way, trying to claim it happen is poor form.
Sure, some things can be inferred.
Like usually people who exist had parents, generally if people are in a place they were not previously they must have travelled there somehow, and so on.
But something at the level "Jedi checked on Shmi ofscreen and nobody ever mentions it" is not reasonable argument imo.

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True enough. For the most part we're very much in the same corner.

 

[Alane1]

Honestly even if I went solely by my impressions from the movies and not any cartoons, books and other media one of the main impressions I got from Anakin both from back when I saw the prequel movies when they first came out and years later on DVD is that Anakin was not good at communicating his problems with the people around around him, at least people not named Palpatine.

He had a tendency to speak in really vague terms that without context would make it really hard to figure what is actually bothering him when he says anything at all.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

1. If it was not shown, it did not happen.
2. Sometimes people need to be told about things they don't want to be told, especially when they are not in posession of all the information, even more so when they are children.
3. No, but using it as an excuse for why the Jedi would not try to help someone makes it a Jedi thing.
4. Which was then followed by pointing out that decisions don't happen in a vacuum. Which you somehow conveniently ignored.
5. Talk about attachments with people who keep telling him that attachments are bad? Suuure, the boy just deprived of the only family he had will get right on it.
6. Episode 6 made it clear that Vader could be pulled out from the dark side thanks to attachments he had. Vader not having done so before is irrelevant to the point.
Had Anakin had proper emmotional support, therapy, and if the Jedi order did not have the issues it had, he quite possibly would not have fallen in the first place.
Vader is a perfect example of what happens when you forbid attachments, bring in people who already have attachments, and have no way to actually deal with those attachments.

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1. Given that Anakin went off to check on his mom without ever talking to another Jedi about it, why would he be shown knowing about it?
2. If Anakin misses his mother but doesn't seem to be worried about her well-being, why would they need to mention if they had someone check in on her a few years back and she seemed fine?
3. It's not an excuse for why the Jedi wouldn't help, it's an explanation for why Shmi might not have left even if help was offered
4. Then focus on the actual point, and the actual point is that Anakin is turning to someone who has just admitted to being behind multiple assassination attempts against Padme, and to being the secret leader of the enemy who Anakin has just spent the last three years fighting for his life against!
5. His attachment isn't a secret! Yoda knows that Anakin has an attachment already, so any trouble he might get in for having attachments is trouble he's already in!
6. It is completely relevant! Vader only needed that Attachment because he didn't fix his own problem beforehand! And it only worked because Luke was manipulative and used himself as a hostage!
7. Ah, so the council should not have changed its mind, and instead refused to give Anakin a chance to be a Jedi at the end of The Phantom Menace? I mean, maybe. I don't think it would have worked out well if they actually kept him away from Jedi, but since it's shown onscreen that Obi-Wan would have left the Order or broken the rules to train Anakin[1] (which the Council may not have known at the time), maybe it would have gone okay, but it's not clear that they could have known that.

[1]: "OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must." -- The Phantom Menace, ending

Honestly even if I went solely by my impressions from the movies and not any cartoons, books and other media one of the main impressions I got from Anakin both from back when I saw the prequel movies when they first came out and years later on DVD is that Anakin was not good at communicating his problems with the people around around him, at least people not named Palpatine.

He had a tendency to speak in really vague terms that without context would make it really hard to figure what is actually bothering him when he says anything at all.

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Yes, exactly!

Palpatine is also intentionally manipulating him, and would have no qualms about spying on Anakin or pressuring him into talking.

 

[bluntblade]

Man, I'd been grudgingly gaining respect for the Prequels since TRoS dropped, and all I've got from this is how poorly Lucas wrote them.