Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[kittygirl]

Yes those two things fucking should come together! If you want emotions but don't want to be a wild animal incapable of functioning in any kind of reasonable civilization or a narcissistic abuser, you're going to need to get some control of yourself!

EDIT: The Sith may be the more "interesting" faction, but... may you live in "interesting" times? ( except not, because I don't actually want to, and we're living in the same times. )

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I understand you like the Jedi and I don't even blame you. However calling your opposition "deranged anti-Jedi fanatics" is kinda mean, y'know? Anyway, the notion that strong passionate emotions without "objective reasoning"--and any "objective reasoning" Jedi claim to teach is gonna be heavily painted by their philosophy, which shuns emotions, making their version of "objective" fishier to me than the person who can admit they have emotions--would turn you into some beast incapable of functioning in society or social situations is kinda wrong. You can easily have strong emotions without them being narcissistic--Anakin presumably loved Padme a lot before they made him Force Choke her--about other people and your "rage and anger" can help you win a lightsaber fight.

I never said you had to agree that the Sith are "more interesting," just that like, take Darth Maul for example: He had a lot of rage and hubris and it didn't immediately get him killed and he pretty much never talked, making him look pretty calm and scary to me, when he then starts spinning that double-bladed lightsaber around. The Sith can be calm and calculating the same as Jedi, it's just a shame (to me and it doesn't make me deranged) that emotion and passion are viewed as antithetical to reason and thought according to the vibe I got from the movies and games.

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

Jedi or Sith, they are two extremes of the same religion. Obviously, the religion is the problem.

 

[bluntblade]

I should stress that my idea of the ideal Grey Jedi is light grey, but as with so many things I reach for the wisdom of Terry Pratchett. My kind of hero is someone who "finds a place between the Pit and impossible perfection."

Admittedly, this is something else I've got into in my own fics, but I figure that if you're forcing yourself to deny every single little bit of temptation, then neither you or anyone around you are able to parse those problems. In chasing purity, the Jedi end up apart from the Galaxy instead of a part of it. Which means that when the Padawan finds his Master can't help at all with his problems, there's someone else on the periphery, someone who understands...

 

[Night]

Jedi or Sith, they are two extremes of the same religion. Obviously, the religion is the problem.

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No? Like, super-ultra-mega-no?

The Force isn't even a religious belief; it's something that tangibly exists and can do real things. The Jedi see themselves as servants of it; the Sith see it as a tool. They reach it different ways. It's not like they share any kind of doctrines about it or anything. All they have in common is an aptitude. All these hot takes about how they're religious groupings are probably garbage in the first place, but they're certainly not the same religion.

 

[bluntblade]

I feel like being people anti-Grey Jedi often stems from that fallacy.

 

[kittygirl]

The Jedi have big huge temples to train kids from a young age to be part of their order. That sounds like a religion to me. Maybe even a cult since they take the younglings and young kids aren't exactly given a lot of agency. I'd say the Sith are less like a religion, but you can religiously enshrine and worship either emotions or the lack of them, and some real-world philosophies and religions do preach against extremes the same way Jedi do. So yeah, they're totally an organized religion: they indoctrinate young kids with their ideology, it's a secretive order of "elites" like some priests try to pass themselves off as, and they frequently stick themselves where they have no business being like crusading religious warriors. Or really bad religious cops.

The whole "training young kids in the same huge temple" also suggests to me that they have common precepts they share unlike what some here may claim.

And I'm kinda done explaining my like for the villains of Star Wars because you can't really defend liking villains in polite company. I'll try to either not respond or keep responses small if somebody wanna quote me.

 

[bluntblade]

I hold to my belief that the Jedi should've been played a lot more knightly and rather less monastic in the prequels.

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

The Jedi and the Sith are religious beliefs, not The Force itself. The Force is their god and the source of mana for their space magic.

 

[Night]

That sounds like a religion to me.

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Man if that was what it took to be a religion then astronomy is a religion because Palomar Observatory was meant to be science's cathedral. Religions require more than having a temple or people in the known. Hell, they're not even milk before meat the way you're trying to pass them off.

The Jedi and the Sith are religious beliefs

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How? It's not like they're actually faiths as such (proof denies faith), much less two extreme interpretations of the same faith as you started with, when the Force is literally all they share.

And even the arguments made about how the Jedi have the trappings of a monastic order completely fall apart when the Sith are everything not, to the point that Sith who talk about the Force as a faith or something to believe in are either uniformly ex-Jedi or considered crazypants by other Sith. To them, the Force is not a god, it's just a tool. I've said that before and I'll keep saying it until it sinks in.

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

Dude we literally see their (Jedi's anyway) sacred texts get torched by the ghost of Yoda in that somewhat divisive* recent movie. What more do you want?

 

[bluntblade]

I happen to like that movie. Fuck, I wish I didn't.

 

[Night]

Dude we literally see their (Jedi's anyway) sacred texts get torched by the ghost of Yoda in that somewhat divisive* recent movie. What more do you want?

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We also literally see that Luke never read them and Yoda disparaged them. The sacred texts were kind of a crappy idea anyways, but it's clear they're also not held particularly sacred. How may Jedi do you suppose did? Anakin? Qui-Gon?

That movie is explicit that the texts, the religious trappings, don't matter. They are a limitation. What we grow beyond.

 

[TheColorPurple]

Dude we literally see their (Jedi's anyway) sacred texts get torched by the ghost of Yoda in that somewhat divisive* recent movie. What more do you want?

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That's sort of like how we Marxists have classical texts that we refer. But Anti-Duhring isn't sacred, its just something to reference when it comes to the philosophy. Same with Confucianism and Daoism, which aren't really religions (well, the latter might be, but not Confucianism).

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

What I suppose is the realm of fanfiction which we've disavowed from this conversation in the thread where it started.

Disrespected literature or not, it was a religion.

 

[bluntblade]

It'd be nice to get some of the Order of the Whills, to see what the Force means to non-users who believe properly in it.

 

[kittygirl]

Man if that was what it took to be a religion then astronomy is a religion because Palomar Observatory was meant to be science's cathedral. Religions require more than having a temple or people in the known. Hell, they're not even milk before meat the way you're trying to pass them off.

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One of Darth Vader's most famous lines: "Your lack of faith disturbs me."

I do believe the one whose lack of faith disturbed him said something derogatory about his religion. IE, the Force, or at least being a Sith is a religious belief according to Star Wars canon as per A New Hope. Jedi are just the flipped side and constitute a religious order as well IMO. And just like in D&D where say Lolth is real, you still have religions and cults of Lolth, same with this order of religious magic-zappy-sword monks.

 

[bluntblade]

One of Darth Vader's most famous lines: "Your lack of faith disturbs me."

I do believe the one whose lack of faith disturbed him said something derogatory about his religion. IE, the Force, or at least being a Sith is a religious belief according to Star Wars canon as per A New Hope. Jedi are just the flipped side and constitute a religious order as well IMO. And just like in D&D where say Lolth is real, you still have religions and cults of Lolth, same with this order of religious magic-zappy-sword monks.

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Yep, religion was definitely mentioned and that's what Vader was replying to.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

I understand you like the Jedi and I don't even blame you. However calling your opposition "deranged anti-Jedi fanatics" is kinda mean, y'know? Anyway, the notion that strong passionate emotions without "objective reasoning"--and any "objective reasoning" Jedi claim to teach is gonna be heavily painted by their philosophy, which shuns emotions, making their version of "objective" fishier to me than the person who can admit they have emotions--would turn you into some beast incapable of functioning in society or social situations is kinda wrong. You can easily have strong emotions without them being narcissistic--Anakin presumably loved Padme a lot before they made him Force Choke her--about other people and your "rage and anger" can help you win a lightsaber fight.

I never said you had to agree that the Sith are "more interesting," just that like, take Darth Maul for example: He had a lot of rage and hubris and it didn't immediately get him killed and he pretty much never talked, making him look pretty calm and scary to me, when he then starts spinning that double-bladed lightsaber around. The Sith can be calm and calculating the same as Jedi, it's just a shame (to me and it doesn't make me deranged) that emotion and passion are viewed as antithetical to reason and thought according to the vibe I got from the movies and games.

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How convenient, then, that Jedi don't shun emotions.

Article:

Depa Billaba, to Caleb Dume: "You must not grow too attached, too fond, too in love with life as it is now. Those emotions are valuable and should not be suppressed... but you must learn to rule them, padawan, lest they rule you"

Source: Kanan: the Last Padawan

Article:

Padawan Mace Windu: "This man is perverting our sacred teachings to prey upon a vulnerable people. I can think of little my tongue could say better than my saber in this instance."
Jedi Master Cyslin Myr: "Dissolve your hostility, Padawan. Channel your frustrations into an appropriate emotion. Violence, as always, is a last resort."
Padawan Mace Windu: "Of course. Apologies, Master."
Jedi Master Cyslin Myr: "A fire burns inside of you, Padawn. That, in itself, is not inherently wrong. It is my job to help you temper it."
Jedi Master Cyslin Myr: "This is why I chose you to accompany me on this mission."
Jedi Master Cyslin Myr: "I do so enjoy a challenge."

Source: Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu

Article:

Mace Windu: "Our inability to speak the same language does not equal an inability to communicate."
Somethingorothers: "Mrrgllrr gllrkk tocc."
Mace Windu: "Emotion is our shared tongue. I sense no malice from these creatures. Holster your paranoia for the time being"

Source: Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu

Article:

Admiral Yularen has just gotten through chewing Anakin out for wanting to evacuate civilians from the battlefield, calling him "emotional"

Anakin Skywalker: "I'm not saying Yularen's a bad soldier. Or even a bad man. But from everything I learned studying with the Jedi as your padawan..."
Anakin Skywalker: "Slaughtering people like this is just wrong"
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "You've come a long way, my former padawan. Trust your feelings. And trust the Force."

Source: Jedi of the Republic - Anakin Skywalker

Jedi that embrace and (try to) understand emotion but don't allow it to rule them... are just called "Jedi", not "Grey Jedi".

The Jedi have big huge temples to train kids from a young age to be part of their order. That sounds like a religion to me. Maybe even a cult since they take the younglings and young kids aren't exactly given a lot of agency. I'd say the Sith are less like a religion, but you can religiously enshrine and worship either emotions or the lack of them, and some real-world philosophies and religions do preach against extremes the same way Jedi do. So yeah, they're totally an organized religion: they indoctrinate young kids with their ideology, it's a secretive order of "elites" like some priests try to pass themselves off as, and they frequently stick themselves where they have no business being like crusading religious warriors. Or really bad religious cops.

The whole "training young kids in the same huge temple" also suggests to me that they have common precepts they share unlike what some here may claim.

And I'm kinda done explaining my like for the villains of Star Wars because you can't really defend liking villains in polite company. I'll try to either not respond or keep responses small if somebody wanna quote me.

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More like the main villains of Star Wars are indefensible.

In The Clone Wars, Jedi are portrayed as being very much pro-individuality, pro making-your-own-choices, and pro-expression, as shown by the contrasts between how Jedi like Yoda and Mace Windu treat the clones, versus how the Kaminoans, Sith, and people like Tarkin do.

Obi-Wan stumbling across a blindingly-white factory of conformity

Yoda: "Clones you may be, but the Force resides in all life forms. Use it, you can, to quiet your mind."

 

[bluntblade]

Basically none of that is in the Prequel films, however, and the emotional tone of the filmaking itself tends towards the objective and clinical.

 

[Astrid Fornhoff]

The line in the sand for this conversation has been decided as "Only appearing in the movies", @RadiantPhoenix stop bringing in the EU (whichever one).

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Basically none of that is in the Prequel films, however, and the emotional tone of the filmaking itself tends towards the objective and clinical.

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The idea of the Sith standing for anything at all beyond hurting, killing, and enslaving people doesn't show up in the films either, so clearly the person I'm responding to isn't talking about the films.

And if the film itself is "objective and clinical" as a whole... that really doesn't reflect on the Jedi in particular?

EDIT:

The line in the sand for this conversation has been decided as "Only appearing in the movies", @RadiantPhoenix stop bringing in the EU (whichever one).

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Jedi of the Republic and The Force Awakens are equally canon in Star Wars -- both of them have only ever existed in the Disney canon, which has no hierarchy.

Before Disney Canon, George Lucas quotes (such as Jango Fett not being Mandalorian) were equally canon with A New Hope ("G-canon").

I'm only going to limit myself to the movies when people are specifically discussing the movies as movies, rather than the setting.

 

[bluntblade]

We've been specifically talking about just the movies.

If the film is objective and clinical, then it's limiting our ability to empathise and feel for those characters. For comparison, A New Hope absolutely roots our emotions in those of the heroes - first the droids, then Leia, then Luke. When Paige Tico makes her sacrifice over D'Qar, the camera and the editing put us right there with her - there's a reason so many people cried over a character who didn't have a single line and just two minutes of screentime. The Prequels don't do that, and the result is that we feel less emotion from the Jedi (quite aside from the stilted performances and first-draft dialogue).

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

We've been specifically talking about just the movies.

If the film is objective and clinical, then it's limiting our ability to empathise and feel for those characters. For comparison, A New Hope absolutely roots our emotions in those of the heroes - first the droids, then Leia, then Luke. The Prequels don't do that, and the result is that we feel less emotion from the Jedi (quite aside from the stilted performances and first-draft dialogue).

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"Only the movies matter": well, that's stupid, because that hasn't been the definition of canon any time this millenium. Just about everything since April 2014 is canon except for Star Wars: The Old Republic, and before that, the tiers of canon (with G-canon on top) have existed since 2000.

Clinical: And again: if it's a function of the film rather than something that only Jedi do, then it reflects on either the film itself or the galaxy.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

We've been specifically talking about just the movies.

If the film is objective and clinical, then it's limiting our ability to empathise and feel for those characters. For comparison, A New Hope absolutely roots our emotions in those of the heroes - first the droids, then Leia, then Luke. The Prequels don't do that, and the result is that we feel less emotion from the Jedi (quite aside from the stilted performances and first-draft dialogue).

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Having recently rewatched some Padme and Anakin scenes, I agree that there's some very stilted dialog in there. On the other hand the Obiwan and Anakin scenes have stronger chemistry.

I think the bigger issue is as people have said that we don't get any focus on other, more "normal" jedi to contrast with Anakin. So it's hard to catch what is supposed to stand out about Anakin.

Even with weak acting on the lead's parts, we could still pick up so much from context if we had other Jedi doing normal Jedi things as a comparison point.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

Having recently rewatched some Padme and Anakin scenes, I agree that there's some very stilted dialog in there. On the other hand the Obiwan and Anakin scenes have stronger chemistry.

I think the bigger issue is as people have said that we don't get any focus on other, more "normal" jedi to contrast with Anakin. So it's hard to catch what is supposed to stand out about Anakin.

Even with weak acting on the lead's parts, we could still pick up so much from contacts if we had other Jedi doing normal Jedi things as a comparison point.

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I'm pretty sure it's not weak acting, just Anakin being intended to be a whiny teenager/young adult.

... which some people might consider a writing problem.