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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Sumeragi said:
Frankly, given just how hot-headed Poe was in TLJ, it probably wouldn't have mattered if it was Luke himself was head of the Resistance. The only indication (if you can call it that) was the initial reaction to seeing Holdo and going "That person is Holdo?" Outside of that, it was pretty much your standard "hero knows better than the superiors who are in their own bubble" cliche..... except for once we see that the superior had actual teeth.

Of course, we're setting aside the issues with scale, utter lack of communication on the part of Poe bordering on sheer incompetence or personality problems, and those other problems which are indefensible. But at least when restricting things to Holdo, it was really just the same old shit with a different ending.
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On the other hand Holdo was needless opaque and didn't even give a hint that there was a plan in place to follow. I mean it's not like Poe started by deciding she was worthless. He approached her quietly and asked if there was a plan and the first things she does is belittle him and then offers nothing but platitudes. It's not like Poe was some nobody off the streets. He was a major war hero that was trusted enough by Leia to be sent after Luke. Not to mention the fact that had he not disobeyed Leia with his bomber plan they'd all be dead outright. Not just because of being followed, which no one could have known, but because the Dreadnought was about to fire on the Resistance's Cruiser and would have killed them all if they had pulled back when Leia ordered.

Yes Poe should have followed orders, but it's not like he had been given any reason to think there was an actual plan behind those orders. I mean if I was a solider and was only hours away from certain death and my CO's only plan when asked was to beg for God's mercy I'd likely be making my own plans too. All Hondo had to do was say "don't worry Poe, I have a plan given to me by General Organa herself. It's dangerous but it will work so long as we don't do anything to attract the First Order's attention more than we have to."
 
sapphirenebula said:
I think some people are seeing the film as an attack on themselves or their group.

A similar thing happened to 2016 Ghostbusters or Mad Max Fury Road.
Those films had different box office and overall fandom reactions.

Some also saw this with Holdo and Poe's interaction. Neither of them was totally wrong or right, I saw merits in both points.

Though I was wondering how in universe the events could be prevented.

He's not needed for the mission, he's a fighter pilot not a transport one.
However he's a war hero and main character, but war heroes don't get told need to know info.
He couldn't really contribute to the plan even if told.

Still if he was told he might not mutiny.
Or he might mutiny faster.
He could also accidentally leak the info. He's no traitor, but he did leak the info in the Last Jedi film by accident.
Even in The Force Awakens, he's terrible at the role of the spy and gets quickly caught, taking a shot at Kylo. Had he not jumped at this long shot chance he might have escaped with less trouble. He's not great at total secrecy or keeping info.

Still he's right that there might be a better solution if more people worked on it.
Though it might also get leaked.

Holdo's plan wasn't perfect either though and does fail.

Poe and Holdo do inadvertently end up with many allies dead.

Maybe if Leia hadn't gotten injured something could happen, Poe seemed to trust and respect her more.

Poe is also right that the flagship is their biggest material asset, and should be saved if possible.


Though it is hard to tell how it would have happened.
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Of course. When you find the very notion of a minority or woman being in a prominent role and position of power to be terrifying and a threat to your identity, Last Jedi is going to cut right to the quick. You'll forgive me if I lack much sympathy for them, though.
 
VolantRedX said:
On the other hand Holdo was needless opaque and didn't even give a hint that there was a plan in place to follow. I mean it's not like Poe started by deciding she was worthless. He approached her quietly and asked if there was a plan and the first things she does is belittle him and then offers nothing but platitudes. It's not like Poe was some nobody off the streets. He was a major war hero that was trusted enough by Leia to be sent after Luke. Not to mention the fact that had he not disobeyed Leia with his bomber plan they'd all be dead outright. Not just because of being followed, which no one could have known, but because the Dreadnought was about to fire on the Resistance's Cruiser and would have killed them all if they had pulled back when Leia ordered.

Yes Poe should have followed orders, but it's not like he had been given any reason to think there was an actual plan behind those orders. I mean if I was a solider and was only hours away from certain death and my CO's only plan when asked was to beg for God's mercy I'd likely be making my own plans too. All Hondo had to do was say "don't worry Poe, I have a plan given to me by General Organa herself. It's dangerous but it will work so long as we don't do anything to attract the First Order's attention more than we have to."
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In other words, Holdo did what was reasonable within the military line of command but "unreasonable" for a "hero who disobeys orders because he believes he knows better."
 
Sumeragi said:
In other words, Holdo did what was reasonable within the military line of command but "unreasonable" for a "hero who disobeys orders because he believes he knows better."
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The problem with that being that the Resistance is for some goddamn reason a ragtag band of misfits and not an army, and Holdo is depicted as very aware of Poe's tendency to go off the reservation. She doesn't take steps to stop this, whether by trying to make sure Poe is in her tent pissing out instead of outside pissing in or by chucking him in the brig until he can pull his head out of his intestinal track.

No, she's not responsible for his mistakes. But she is responsible for hers, and last I checked her job was to make sure the people under her did what she told them to. Which she didn't do with Poe.
 
Sumeragi said:
In other words, Holdo did what was reasonable within the military line of command but "unreasonable" for a "hero who disobeys orders because he believes he knows better."
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Military line of commands make less sense when dealing with a military force smaller than most little league teams. Again Poe isn't some nobody who Hondo need not concern herself with. He's a major war hero and is more than able to act as a rallying force for the Resistance. Instead of cluing him into the plan and addressing his very reasonable concerns that were no doubt shared by many Hondo totally alienated one of the major heroes in the Resistance for really no reason. I mean seriously, what benefit or strategic advantage did she gain by not just telling Poe what the plan was? Hell the first interaction the two had she needlessly insults him then acts smug about it. Given that thinking she's a smug idiot that is going to get them all killed is pretty reasonable in his position.
 
Lunatic350 said:
Wasn't exactly a needless insult, since he was trying to ignore being demoted and she was calling him out on it.
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...For no reason. She gained nothing and pissed off someone with a lot of support from the lower ranks. Like they were in a crisis situation with most of their leadership dead. Alienating one of their most experienced leaders who is also their best and likely only fighter pilot does nothing for her and would only hinder her long term. Like if this was some dinner party where he was trying to schmooze up to the brass that's one thing, but he was trying to find out if there was a plan beyond "die gloriously".
 
Lunatic350 said:
Wasn't exactly a needless insult, since he was trying to ignore being demoted and she was calling him out on it.
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Yeah he introduces himself as "Commander Dameron" even though Leia literally demoted him a few scenes earlier. Holdo is reminding him that she knows what Leia did and what Leia's intentions were and that he needs to cool his jets.

Also he kinda storms up to her while she's trying to organize her shit and keeps interrupting while she's working. EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but junior officers generally don't stomp up to their superiors and demand attention, right?
 
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Lunatic350 said:
The problem with that being that the Resistance is for some goddamn reason a ragtag band of misfits and not an army, and Holdo is depicted as very aware of Poe's tendency to go off the reservation. She doesn't take steps to stop this, whether by trying to make sure Poe is in her tent pissing out instead of outside pissing in or by chucking him in the brig until he can pull his head out of his intestinal track.

No, she's not responsible for his mistakes. But she is responsible for hers, and last I checked her job was to make sure the people under her did what she told them to. Which she didn't do with Poe.
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I feel that's more an issue of bad writing where everyone except possibly Snoke are idiots, all for the story.


Mila said:
EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but junior officers generally don't stomp up to their superiors and demand attention, right?
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They don't, which is why Poe was in no position to be demanding anything. That's why I brought up the "lower rank hero who knows better than his superiors" cliche.
 
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VolantRedX said:
...For no reason. She gained nothing and pissed off someone with a lot of support from the lower ranks. Like they were in a crisis situation with most of their leadership dead. Alienating one of their most experienced leaders who is also their best and likely only fighter pilot does nothing for her and would only hinder her long term. Like if this was some dinner party where he was trying to schmooze up to the brass that's one thing, but he was trying to find out if there was a plan beyond "die gloriously".
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A military crisis situation seems like a damn good time to not let a known reckless hothead inflate their rank and assume responsibilities beyond what they've been trusted with, if you ask me.
 
Mila said:
Yeah he introduces himself as "Commander Dameron" even though Leia literally demoted him a few scenes earlier. Holdo is reminding him that she knows what Leia did and what Leia's intentions were and that he needs to cool his jets.

Also he kinda storms up to her while she's trying to organize her shit and keeps interrupting while she's working. EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but junior officers generally don't stomp up to their superiors and demand attention, right?
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When your army consists of about 100 people rank is totally meaningless. At this point even having rank is basically a formality to settle coin flips. And again all he wanted to know was if they were doing more than getting killed. Like four different times he asks before deciding to say fuck it and mutiny. She had several chances to just say "yeah, here's the plan, now sit down and shut up." Instead she either insults and ignores him or offers meaningless platitudes. Like Poe clearly isn't the only person who thinks she's going to get them all killed. He had a lot of people join in on his mutiny, at least given the size of the Resistance. There's no reason for her to not just tell him the damn plan. It'd take two minutes and it would have solved everything.

Lunatic350 said:
A military crisis situation seems like a damn good time to not let a known reckless hothead inflate their rank and assume responsibilities beyond what they've been trusted with, if you ask me.
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So instead let's just piss off the well known war hero for no reason just to take him down a peg or two?

Shanejayell said:
*LOL*

Twitter Is Completely Divided Over Whether Or Not Kylo Ren Is Hot
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Well he does have that bad boy thing going on.
 
VolantRedX said:
When your army consists of about 100 people rank is totally meaningless. At this point even having rank is basically a formality to settle coin flips. And again all he wanted to know was if they were doing more than getting killed. Like four different times he asks before deciding to say fuck it and mutiny. She had several chances to just say "yeah, here's the plan, now sit down and shut up." Instead she either insults and ignores him or offers meaningless platitudes. Like Poe clearly isn't the only person who thinks she's going to get them all killed. He had a lot of people join in on his mutiny, at least given the size of the Resistance. There's no reason for her to not just tell him the damn plan. It'd take two minutes and it would have solved everything.


So instead let's just piss off the well known war hero for no reason just to take him down a peg or two?


Well he does have that bad boy thing going on.
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Why does she owe the demoted and on-punishment hotshot asshole pilot an explanation, exactly?

>rank is meaningless because the forces are small

Lol.
 
VolantRedX said:
So instead let's just piss off the well known war hero for no reason just to take him down a peg or two?
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VolantRedX said:
for no reason
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There was a reason! Leia demoted Poe. He was no longer to be trusted with command decisions because he was too reckless. And he came forward in a crisis to say that he was, in fact, totally trusted to make those decisions. When he wasn't. Because he'd been demoted. Reminding him that he was demoted and no longer being trusted with command decisions is not insulting him for no reason!

It's not taking him down a peg or two when he's the one goddamn saying he has a rank and authority he does not possess! It's bringing him back to reality, and Holdo was 100% in the right to do so.
 
VolantRedX said:
When your army consists of about 100 people rank is totally meaningless. At this point even having rank is basically a formality to settle coin flips. And again all he wanted to know was if they were doing more than getting killed. Like four different times he asks before deciding to say fuck it and mutiny. She had several chances to just say "yeah, here's the plan, now sit down and shut up." Instead she either insults and ignores him or offers meaningless platitudes. Like Poe clearly isn't the only person who thinks she's going to get them all killed. He had a lot of people join in on his mutiny, at least given the size of the Resistance. There's no reason for her to not just tell him the damn plan. It'd take two minutes and it would have solved everything.
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Well, no actually it isn't. They're literally in a crisis situation where keeping to rank and command structure are vital is they're going to keep any order. The minute you think these things don't matter, as Poe keeps doing, things fall apart.

And, let's face it, Poe's way of asking isn't the way to ask a commanding officer, especially when you're in the doghouse. She asked him to trust her, he didn't and hopefully, he learned a lesson from that.
 
VolantRedX said:
When your army consists of about 100 people rank is totally meaningless. At this point even having rank is basically a formality to settle coin flips. And again all he wanted to know was if they were doing more than getting killed. Like four different times he asks before deciding to say fuck it and mutiny. She had several chances to just say "yeah, here's the plan, now sit down and shut up." Instead she either insults and ignores him or offers meaningless platitudes. Like Poe clearly isn't the only person who thinks she's going to get them all killed. He had a lot of people join in on his mutiny, at least given the size of the Resistance. There's no reason for her to not just tell him the damn plan. It'd take two minutes and it would have solved everything.
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Even within guerrilla forces there are ranks, just what kind of ragtag idiots would NOT have ranks, even after most of your force has been decimated? Furthermore, within the military orders are absolute (let's leave aside issues of morality for now): if your superior says you don't have the right to know, you don't have a right to know and just shut up.

All you're showing is that you are utterly ignoring reality in favor of "hero is right, fuck ranks ruck superiors."
 
Lunatic350 said:
There was a reason! Leia demoted Poe. He was no longer to be trusted with command decisions because he was too reckless. And he came forward in a crisis to say that he was, in fact, totally trusted to make those decisions. When he wasn't. Because he'd been demoted. Reminding him that he was demoted and no longer being trusted with command decisions is not insulting him for no reason!

It's not taking him down a peg or two when he's the one goddamn saying he has a rank and authority he does not possess! It's bringing him back to reality, and Holdo was 100% in the right to do so.
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Leia demoted him informally without a proper court Marshall to examine whether or not his actions were justified. Demotions aren't just 'you're demoted', there is actually a process. Second, as others have pointed out as well as me, Poe was entirely right in his attack, and was already too deeply engaged to disengage with any hope of rescuing the bombers anyway because they were already tie-swarmed by Leia's call for a retreat. You don't give orders that literally cannot be fulfilled. Then you have the issue that Poe has a need to know for command continuity, as already demonstrated by Dath School Shooter. He has no direct and active role in the plan, yes. But he is the next layer of backup should Hold get spaced. Finally, in a tactical situation, you should never be a goddamn idiot and insult your subordinates when they ask you for action orders for what needs to be done next while your element runs for it's collective lives from an overwhelming ambush. Even if she had given him something bullshit to do, or at least tricked him into thinking the plan was something else and that they needed a while for elements to get into position, it would have been much better. Holdo may be a damn good tactician and strategician, but her abysmal lack of leadership skills make it surprising she was ever allowed to hold a command.
 
The problem I had was there is no real REASON to keep everyone in the dark. All Holdo keeping their going to a old rebel base secret did was worsen morale and, you know, trigger a mutiny. She didn't have to say exactly where they were going, if she feared a leak, just "There is a abandoned rebel base out there. We can reach it with our remaining fuel, fort up and wait for help."
 
Spartan Altego said:
Why does she owe the demoted and on-punishment hotshot asshole pilot an explanation, exactly?
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Because he's a war hero? Because he's well respected in the ranks? Because at this point she has no reason not to tell him? Because it does nothing but hurt her credibility by being obtuse? Pick one.

Lunatic350 said:
There was a reason! Leia demoted Poe. He was no longer to be trusted with command decisions because he was too reckless. And he came forward in a crisis to say that he was, in fact, totally trusted to make those decisions. When he wasn't. Because he'd been demoted. Reminding him that he was demoted and no longer being trusted with command decisions is not insulting him for no reason!

It's not taking him down a peg or two when he's the one goddamn saying he has a rank and authority he does not possess! It's bringing him back to reality, and Holdo was 100% in the right to do so.
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Marco said:
Well, no actually it isn't. They're literally in a crisis situation where keeping to rank and command structure are vital is they're going to keep any order. The minute you think these things don't matter, as Poe keeps doing, things fall apart.

And, let's face it, Poe's way of asking isn't the way to ask a commanding officer, especially when you're in the doghouse. She asked him to trust her, he didn't and hopefully, he learned a lesson from that.
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And in the end all she did was alienate him and make a bad situation worse when she could have just told him what the plan was. Hell she should have told everyone what the plan was. People were literally trying to jump ship and had to be stopped by Rose. Poe's reaction is totally justified when he was basically told to fuck off and let the adults do the talking. Why should he trust her when she's done nothing to earn his trust?

Sumeragi said:
All you're showing is that you are utterly ignoring reality in favor of "hero is right, fuck ranks ruck superiors."
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Listen I've never been in the military. I have however managed people in a restaurant and I can tell you the best way to ensure that your people distrust you, hate you, and subvert your authority is to tell them to do stuff without telling them why. Seriously why not tell Poe the plan? Not one person has answered that. Her attitude gained her nothing and Poe's reaction to it is totally understandable.
 
VolantRedX said:
Listen I've never been in the military. I have however managed people in a restaurant and I can tell you the best way to ensure that your people distrust you, hate you, and subvert your authority is to tell them to do stuff without telling them why. Seriously why not tell Poe the plan? Not one person has answered that. Her attitude gained her nothing and Poe's reaction to it is totally understandable.
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Because Poe is a known hothead for disregarding orders and justifying them, he's trying to place himself as the leader when he has no right to (never mind demoted), he's intruding the bridge when she's trying to figure things out. Frankly, Poe should have been busted down even further for those kind of undermining behavior.

Also, your time as management has no real application in the military. Outside of morally questionable acts, orders are absolute: you listen to them without question. There is no reason for a subordinate to ask the why, there is no obligation on part of the superior to discuss the why.
 
VolantRedX said:
And in the end all she did was alienate him and make a bad situation worse when she could have just told him what the plan was. Hell she should have told everyone what the plan was. People were literally trying to jump ship and had to be stopped by Rose. Poe's reaction is totally justified when he was basically told to fuck off and let the adults do the talking. Why should he trust her when she's done nothing to earn his trust?
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Why does she need to earn his trust? You keep going on about him being a war hero, well so is she. There is a scene where even Poe is impressed by her previous accomplishments.

Why should she bend over backward for the guy that has an established problem following orders, got demoted for it a few hours ago, and showed no inclination to respect the authority she's been granted in the first place? He walks around like he owns the place and he knows best when he was just punished. I realize that's a pretty common occurrence in fiction for Heroes, but these things have consequences. You don't do that and expect to be accommodated.

And the more people you tell about a plan, the more likely everyone will find out about it. Which, if they have a spy on the ship, means the plan is screwed.
 
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