Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

he just decides to be a fucking coward and murder the kid in his sleep all based on some premonitions that he had.
He has one moment of weakness after watching what's implied to be horrific visions that he's seeing from the kid who's been built up as insanely powerful in the Force after having spent his earlier years fighting against Sith with comparable levels of power who had taken over the entire galaxy, which he immediately feels immense shame from and bitterly regrets. It's not a decision, it's instinct, something built from fear that he'd carried with him all that time, which he then overcomes the moment he starts actually thinking.
 
It's explicitly said in the movie that it was a momentary reaction out of shock and fear and that he felt immense shame at his own weakness in the moment afterward.

It's not even subtext!
 
The point is that he tried, which is ridiculous given his character from ROTJ.

So instead of Luke confronting Kylo Ren and getting the truth from him and trying to help him, he just decides to be a fucking coward and murder the kid in his sleep all based on some premonitions that he had. Awesome Luke characterization. Totally fits with what we remember of the heroic man who was willing to throw his life away to redeem the soul of one of the most evil men in the galaxy.
You mean, the characterisation in RoTJ where Vader was able to taunt him into a murderous rage that he only snapped out of due to hearing Palpatine's creepy laugh and only then did the whole self-sacrificing thing?
 
We really need to let Disney know about this shitty alternate reality cut of TLJ that's going around so they can start filing takedowns. It's clearly hurting their brand. :V
 
Can we talk about the character with an actual problem in this movie? Poe first tells Leia 'fuck your years of experience woman let me show you how a man does it' and then gets dozens of people killed and every single bomber the rebel fleet has destroyed. His punishment is he is demoted and... yeah that's it. He then proceeds to say 'fuck your years of experience woman let me show you how a man does it' to Holdo and then decides that isn't good enough so the leads an ARMED REBELLION. Holdo and Leia then talk about how he is such a good man and how much they like him because isn't ignoring your superiors and getting people killed just fine. He then is put in charge of every speeder the rebellion has and his moment of learning is ... that maybe getting literally everyone killed is a bad idea.

So after repeatedly being shown that ignoring what women with experience tell him to do is bad the 'lesson' in the final battle is not to actually listen to them but simply not to get everyone killed in trying to win the battle when a war is going on. The movie gave Poe so much rope you could make a space elevator with it and then all they did was tie his shoes together. The movie had a chance to dig the knife in and really give it a good twist on the whole 'hotshot pilot knows better than command' and what we got was a flacid slap with a herring.
 
I was somewhat surprised that the take away from the dreadnought scene was that Poe got the bombers killed for nothing. Seeing as the giant ship that replaced it did not have ranged weapons worth a damn but the dreadnought was referred to as a fleet killer then surely the movie ends with the rebel fleet destroyed if the dreadnought is still around. I keep seeing talk of how the replacement giant ship was a construction and repair vessel after all. If an actual dedicated combat ship of that size was there instead then everyone dies and the movie gets to focus on Rey and Luke.
 
3. She simply could have simply walked up and grabbed it, instead the way it's shown in the movie is that from the START that she is outright over powered the major antagonist of the film in a pure force moment, which isn't needed considering she shown both mental strength (from stopping the force mind probe) and physical strength (from wearing down and beating Kylo) which is a level of pure domination that is not matched by any other introduction movie for a starwars trilogy.

Yeah, good job Rey! You overpowered the guy who just killed his dad and is desperately trying to hold his guts inside his body as he chases you through a snow-covered forest. Great job. Truly, the greatest Space Wizard ever born.
 
I was somewhat surprised that the take away from the dreadnought scene was that Poe got the bombers killed for nothing. Seeing as the giant ship that replaced it did not have ranged weapons worth a damn but the dreadnought was referred to as a fleet killer then surely the movie ends with the rebel fleet destroyed if the dreadnought is still around. I keep seeing talk of how the replacement giant ship was a construction and repair vessel after all. If an actual dedicated combat ship of that size was there instead then everyone dies.

At the time of the demotion, they did not know the First Order could track them through Hyperspace.
 
I was somewhat surprised that the take away from the dreadnought scene was that Poe got the bombers killed for nothing. Seeing as the giant ship that replaced it did not have ranged weapons worth a damn but the dreadnought was referred to as a fleet killer then surely the movie ends with the rebel fleet destroyed if the dreadnought is still around. I keep seeing talk of how the replacement giant ship was a construction and repair vessel after all. If an actual dedicated combat ship of that size was there instead then everyone dies and the movie gets to focus on Rey and Luke.

The point of that scene is Poe was more concerned with killing the dreadnought than protecting the Resistance. The dreadnought was dangerous but all they had to do to escape it (As far as they knew) was jump away, but Poe deliberately delayed the Resistance's escape so they could blow up one big ship.
 
I was somewhat surprised that the take away from the dreadnought scene was that Poe got the bombers killed for nothing. Seeing as the giant ship that replaced it did not have ranged weapons worth a damn but the dreadnought was referred to as a fleet killer then surely the movie ends with the rebel fleet destroyed if the dreadnought is still around. I keep seeing talk of how the replacement giant ship was a construction and repair vessel after all. If an actual dedicated combat ship of that size was there instead then everyone dies and the movie gets to focus on Rey and Luke.

Since Poe is not a force user and he doesn't have the power of foresight there is no way he could know any of that. All Poe knew is that the Dreadnought would be dangerous in the future and that he had a hair brained plan to take it out. What he did was fuck up and have blind luck make it so his fuck up didn't matter to much. Also if they still have those bombers they can still do a suicidal bombing run on the dreadnaught after the chase begins so it is not like not killing everyone dooms the fleet.
 
I was somewhat surprised that the take away from the dreadnought scene was that Poe got the bombers killed for nothing. Seeing as the giant ship that replaced it did not have ranged weapons worth a damn but the dreadnought was referred to as a fleet killer then surely the movie ends with the rebel fleet destroyed if the dreadnought is still around. I keep seeing talk of how the replacement giant ship was a construction and repair vessel after all. If an actual dedicated combat ship of that size was there instead then everyone dies and the movie gets to focus on Rey and Luke.

And maybe that the range was so extreme the Dread's guns would've also been ineffective, and were basically what the Supremacy was hitting with.
 
I guess it just feels kind of odd to me to have him be so right on the issue. If they wanted him to learn a lesson about following orders and grow as a person why did they almost immediately show that if he did anything else the resistance would have died before it could even run away.
 
Why do people say Poe got those bombers destroyed for nothing? The Resistance lost 6 bombers and around 50 people but took down a massive ship with dozens of thousands of enemy personnel.

Thats a great kill ratio.
 
Why do people say Poe got those bombers destroyed for nothing? The Resistance lost 6 bombers and around 50 people but took down a massive ship with dozens of thousands of enemy personnel.

Thats a great kill ratio.

The rebellion only had 6 bombers and six bomber crews.
The First Order had more than one dreadnought.

So, while yes, on paper that's absolutely a favorable trade for the Resistance, in reality if they keep doing that they will all be dead before they defeat the First Order. Fighting a war of attrition is a bad plan for them, even if they fight it really, really well.
 
If Poe fell back like ordered wouldn't the Dreadnaughr have hit the capital ship? They were moments away from firing and the capital ship hadn't engaged their hyperdrive. And Hondo was needlessly antagonistic and hadn't given anyone the slightest indication there was a plan beyond run and die.
 
I honestly feel like the internet has really blown up the whole Holdo/Poe thing and made it seem way worse for both of them.

I ended up reading this thread before seeing the movie for the first time and the way it was talked about I was expecting this subplot to be a huge drag of assholes being assholes to other assholes.

After seeing the movie though I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Like yea mistakes where made but I do find it funny how people on the internet are angrier at the individual characters than either of them where with each other in the movie itself.

I guess I am kind of curious if the people in this thread had a super negative opinion of either Admiral Holdo or Poe right out of the theater or is that something that came up after discussion with other people?
 
If Poe fell back like ordered wouldn't the Dreadnaughr have hit the capital ship? They were moments away from firing and the capital ship hadn't engaged their hyperdrive. And Hondo was needlessly antagonistic and hadn't given anyone the slightest indication there was a plan beyond run and die.
The Resistance's departure was greatly delayed by the bombing run; if Poe had turned back sooner, it likely wouldn't have gone down to the wire. Like, Poe's not 100% wrong and Holdo's not 100% right, but Poe's blatant defiance of Leia gives Holdo the edge.
 
Admiral Holdo is just fine.

Poe is kind of a well-meaning dummy, but I don't hate him. He just needs to stick to being an amazing fighter-pilot/adventurer, and stop trying to be a military strategist, because he's terrible at it.
 
If Poe fell back like ordered wouldn't the Dreadnaughr have hit the capital ship? They were moments away from firing and the capital ship hadn't engaged their hyperdrive. And Hondo was needlessly antagonistic and hadn't given anyone the slightest indication there was a plan beyond run and die.

The only reason the dreadnought was seconds away from firing on the cruiser is because Poe insisted on staying to kill the dreadnought and Leia didn't want to leave them behind. Otherwise they would have escaped once the last transport was aboard and the dreadnought was still recharging from blowing up the base.
 
2. she literally could have been broken out by her friends with no real plot problems.

Two issues. One, that puts her in the 'damsel in distress,' role, and two, what happened highlights her growing force power by putting her in a position where she can try repeatedly and fail before succeeding.

3. She simply could have simply walked up and grabbed it, instead the way it's shown in the movie is that from the START that she is outright over powered the major antagonist of the film in a pure force moment, which isn't needed considering she shown both mental strength (from stopping the force mind probe) and physical strength (from wearing down and beating Kylo) which is a level of pure domination that is not matched by any other introduction movie for a starwars trilogy.

Eh, she didn't exactly overpower him- she was pulling in the same direction, rather than a tug-of-war.
 
Luke's big backstory moment with Ben makes perfect sense because Luke is not the superhero paragon nostalgia tells you he is. He's a man, not a legend, and a man who makes mistakes. It's right there in RotJ - Luke is a righteous man and a compassionate man, which also means he has the capacity for righteous fury inherent in all good people. He shares the Skywalker flaw of wrath, just like when he nearly murdered the very father he was trying to save in a fit of rage for threatening his sister.

His split-second contemplation over Ben isn't a regression of his character growth or even a retread. It was a step forward! Luke didn't even attempt to follow through on his impulse beyond igniting his saber, he didn't engage his nephew in a violent duel and beat him to the floor, he didn't cut off Ben's hand. It hit him, he grappled with it, and then he mastered himself. He's come much farther in controlling his darkness than he ever had been before in the OT.

And a fundamental mistake about Luke seems to be that many fans believe he "won" his war with the dark side and never would grapple with it meaningfully again. That he was somehow above it, after sparing Vader. That's never been implied nor shown to be the case in the films. What is shown is that Luke does not give in to the dark side, not that he has beaten the dark side. The dark side isn't a fight you win: it's a boulder you roll up the hill, over and over again. You can't rid yourself forever of the temptation because the temptation isn't exterior. It exists inside you and only dies when you die.

Perhaps that is why dark-siders are so terrified of death. Only in death are we shown spirits absolutely free of the dark side (Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan) in the films proper.

Luke's character wasn't broken. He didn't fail his test. It was Ben, and only Ben, who was tempted by the dark and succumbed to its lure. And in the end, "nobody is ever really gone."

Luke Skywalker is shown to be a man who would indeed never go through with murder, and believes redemption is never impossible no matter how dire. He's shown as he is, not as we'd like him to be or want to pretend he was. Luke isn't a hero because he is a flawless man. He's a hero because he defies his flaws and fights with every ounce of his soul to be better than them. Luke isn't a hero because he is never tempted to do wrong. It's because he faces that temptation and experiences it like the rest of us and still chooses to do the right thing.

The people angry with Luke's character are honestly missing the lesson of the film. Because Luke feels the same way they do: he wasn't a perfect mentor, uncle, or man. Therefore he must be worthless. But Luke realizes he was wrong - that the legend of Luke Skywalker has value because it's imperfect, not the other way around.
 
It's one thing to have that red hot flash of rage moment.

It's something entirely different to have that rage, pull out a pistol, thumb the safety off, point it at a sleeping child, and then and ONLY then do you realize "Whoa wait a second I've messed up need to dial this back a few million notches."
 
It's one thing to have that red hot flash of rage moment.

It's something entirely different to have that rage, pull out a pistol, thumb the safety off, point it at a sleeping child, and then and ONLY then do you realize "Whoa wait a second I've messed up need to dial this back a few million notches."
Is it, if you have accurate visions of the future and saw him becoming Literally Hitler?
 
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