Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

[Baughn]

So basically, Miki then.

A.K.A. - A teenage sloth .

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Heh.

Just to address the sloth in the room, while I'm at it: Miki is fine. I tried to get this across in-story with Ami, and think I succeeded, but there's been some concern in the past that she might somehow go away. That isn't happening; she'll be back on her feet by tomorrow, though you might expect a couple of weeks before she's able to stay awake a full thirteen hours per day.

At which point she'll have to go to school, and I suspect she'll take placement exams before then (spoilers: Amu's level at present), though all of that is up in the air. Getting her a regular identity will be... a thing. Having good relations with JPs would help massively for this; it isn't even the first time they've handled something like that. Though you could also ask Naoto, if you had any reason to do so.

 

[Quine]

Moreover, you can't train anything without using it. For high level socialise, that means… high level socialise effects, and you don't get to train just some of them.

If you did, that would be called a specialty.

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With how expensive specialties are, this seems like it'll create some awkward incentives.

For example, if we want to get better at telepathy, we need more Mind Control dots (counting specialties), since that's how you've set up the psi system. A telepathy specialty would take 3 XP and 3 weeks of training, while Mind Control 3 would take 1 XP and 2 weeks. But if we have to train all uses of Mind Control to get Mind Control 3, we need to practice mind raping people.

 

[veekie]

Let me just point out the kinds of feats that Socialize 3 is meant to allow you to do:

I bet that all publicly notable figures would really like to be able to obtain powerful political favors just by asking in the right way.

I sure don't believe it is a social expectation that they would be able to do so.

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Which is correct enough? Being able to consistently and reliably pick up on what people have as their motives for a given dialog does mean that they can regularly get favors just by approaching a noble when they are in a good mood and wish to be extravagant. Being able to have a pokerface strong enough that your mark gets an outright false reading from determining whether you are lying or not lets you blackmail on a bluff, coupled to being able to cold read the target enough to play on their fears.

Amu can already do the former with her psychic powers. Without even really trying that hard.
And the only reason she can't do the latter half is her pokerface is nonexistent, she can already read your emotions well enough to pull the right empty handed blackmail.

 

[Baughn]

With how expensive specialties are, this seems like it'll create some awkward incentives.

For example, if we want to get better at telepathy, we need more Mind Control dots (counting specialties), since that's how you've set up the psi system. A telepathy specialty would take 3 XP and 3 weeks of training, while Mind Control 3 would take 1 XP and 2 weeks. But if we have to train all uses of Mind Control to get Mind Control 3, we need to practice mind raping people.

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Mmyeah. I possibly should just cut the cost of specialties by 50%, to match the thing they're specializing.

Though that gets into half-points. Alternately, you could get two for one. Well, eh; half-points aren't any harder to handle.

 

[quantum lurker]

OOC knowledge would've pegged Hotsuin as something of a Darwinist psychopath, but because Lulu is his cousin here and had some effect on his mentality, that may no longer apply here.

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Might as well confirm this. It isn't the only reason, and if everything else was identical he'd still be that guy, but this isn't the DeSu2 version of the timeline; it's the Nocturne one.

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Sadly then, in the Nocturne timeline, they didn't catch on that the hospital in question was suspicious and needed to be investigated.

In the DeSu2 timeline, Hikawa's attack either fails or else doesn't happen at all.

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The conclusion, I think, is obvious enough. I'm still not going to draw it for you.

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Spoiler: Other relevant quotes

Hotsuin would have been a viable candidate for a Sidereal exaltation, FWIW. He isn't at this point, but he would have been.

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Sidereals are fated. When they were born, they were foretold to have their name sung across the world. That fate—that change—is what is traded away, as the Maidens swap one fate for another. As a result, they will never be known.

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"Your cousin seems to have usurped their agency," said her grandmother, and Lulu couldn't quite suppress a snort. "So, you'll have to forgive the man if he is a little put out."

"I wouldn't dare," the man chuckled. "But, well, he does have the talent. Not to mention the personality. And the name."

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Hotsuin, who spent nearly an entire evening interrogating her last week, has a far more cynical viewpoint. And wants to know when precisely she was going to tell him she's soul-bonded to a dubiously benign fairy-like creature.

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As regards Hotsuin, I think he'd agree that Lulu's annoying, and gets under his skin, and generally is a pain in the butt.

He might even provide some sarcastic words, but only if she calls.

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Without her help there'd have been more casualties. More fatalities as well. Chief Hotsuin isn't likely to forget that anytime soon, you know.

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Hotsuin values ability, loyalty and intelligence, but also ethics. He seems less bothered by someone going against him, than by someone going against him without having a good plan for "And what then, smarty-pants?"

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Hotsuin is going to be mostly amused, when they don't add to his paperwork and/or headaches. Their tricks are neat, and have a lot more utility than "Eat it with a dragon", but nothing Amu is likely to demonstrate will suggest she could be a danger to him, or would want to be.

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1) Hotsuin chose to build an agency up (or stay within said agency and work to get promoted) and remain relatively anonymous instead of relying solely on his family name
2) Seems like he does care about Lulu to some extent, spending time with Lulu sometimes
3) He may have more evidence of support and better tools in this Quest because of us

These factors aren't quite enough to explain a possible shift of personality, so
4) Hotsuin doesn't know of Hikawa and his plans to trigger the Conception
5) Anguished One doesn't exist here, so Hotsuin never got a indication that the world is ending soon, and more importantly was not made aware of the possibility of shifting the world to fit his ideals if he Tried Hard Enough.

So therefore because of these background factor shifts Hotsuin never fell so hard into his brand of extremism, and therefore his personality is different here? (Though he is still paranoid because of the background implies in 1)

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And Amu currently has a problem with the mass media. Plenty of people in those companies to practice Rank 3 Socialize skills on. Would seem like a convenient solution on the surface.

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To be fair, if Amu is directly going against said people, something is very, very wrong - I'm expecting to go against 2 dot Reporters at most normally, and if we actually get to that point I'm probably gonna throw my hands up and make this Easter/JPs problem?

I was thinking of how to increase our "default maximum-die attack pool", and the Mind Control thing is unfortunate - any ideas on how to train this sort of thing ethically?

(Our greatest "default attack pool" rn is Charisma + Presence + Mind Control, but it's contested, DC >5 will come eventually, and I don't see us voting to train Presence anytime soon, or even anytime before Exaltation?
Next best is probably Strength + Thrown + Telekinesis, or Dex + Thrown + Illusion; but Thrown is too limited in applicability to be worth training at this point.

Ideally we'd have something like Charisma + Integrity + Empathy as Empathy training shouldn't be too problematic, but I got nothing on how to consistently use this offensively in an emergency?
We could also go for whatever combo Biokinesis or Thermokinesis keys off, but that will be traumatising and really PR unfriendly so)

 

[PistachioCookies]

I was thinking of how to increase our "default maximum-die attack pool", and the Mind Control thing is unfortunate - any ideas on how to train this sort of thing ethically?

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We know she uses Mind Control to contain lesser shadows. If she has constant access to the Dreamlands, she can probably train on those. No idea whether that would qualify as a comprehensive use of the skill. If it doesn't count for the "undo Mind Control" portion of it, she would need to find other psionics to help, most likely Hikaru and Ami.

It would be joint training between the 3, Hikaru would be trying to train fine control over his Mind Control on Ami, who would be trying to train up her Integrity by resisting it and then Amu would be using Mind Control to reverse any changes that Ami couldn't block. The changes wouldn't necessarily need to be injurious, the kind of "mind writing" that she and Ami does to approximate telepathy would probably count as a target for undoing. It's just, Amu can't be the one doing the writing or she'll know exactly what to undo.

That would also limit the training hours to the others' schedules, but it's not strictly impossible.

And the only reason she can't do the latter half is her pokerface is nonexistent, she can already read your emotions well enough to pull the right empty handed blackmail.

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She can. Illusion even at the current level of 1 allows her to compensate for that too, by artificially projecting a different facial expression onto herself - or more likely, just someone else's face entirely.

Since it would be unwise to rock up looking like herself when blackmailing someone.

Which is correct enough? Being able to consistently and reliably pick up on what people have as their motives for a given dialog does mean that they can regularly get favors just by approaching a noble when they are in a good mood and wish to be extravagant.

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"When they are in a good mood and wish to be extravagant" is pretty conditional and dependent on circumstance or luck. My understanding was that Socialize 3 allows the user to bypass that luck and circumstance entirely, by being so good at discerning motivations and flattering people they are able to engineer the conditions by hand, putting their target into a such a good mood and making them feel so magnanimous they feel like giving favors - not just take advantage of an existing situation.

Also, I should clarify, my main point was, "publicly known" does not necessarily mean Socialize 3 and there's not really an expectation of it - that's contingent on their job as the QM pointed out. Sports stars are famous and publicly known but there's not really an expectation of them being socialites (they can be, but not especially expected), they leave that to their PR team. Famous academicians and research experts are not expected to have Socialize 3. Media celebrities usually are, but I already acknowledged media professionals as having high Socialize.

Then of course, there are the people publicly known due to their infamy rather than popularity. They certainly are not expected to have Socialize 3, it's usually the exact opposite. Heck knows the media reporters hoping to chase up and write a hit piece on Amu definitely neither want nor expect her to have Socialize 3.

 

[quantum lurker]

While this is definitely far, far into the future, I was looking at the Solar Charms list and aside from the stuff that's already been mentioned, these may be useful and feasible to acquire:
Righteous Avenger's Aspect (Integrity 4/Essence 2, also requires Righteous Lion Defense and is much better at Essence 3),
Essence Gathering Temper (Resistance 1/Essence 1),
Soul Fire Resurgence (Resistance 2/Essence 2, might be redundant due to Biokinesis and the optics of training Resistance isn't great),
Flawless Diagnosis Technique (Medicine 1/Essence 1) + Lore for interpretation, and perhaps Instant Treatment Methodology (Medicine 2/Essence 2, might be redundant with Biokinesis), and lastly
Sagacious Reading of Intent (Linguistics 1/Essence 1, but I consider this redundant between Socialise and Empathy most of the time).

We know she uses Mind Control to contain lesser shadows. If she has constant access to the Dreamlands, she can probably train on those

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Well, if we are going in that direction, deliberate exposure to Fog is the definition of training Integrity, although without an emergency exit button or someone to tell you you should probably leave now this is a bad idea.

For more sane ideas, I wonder if we can finagle our way into joining the Investigation Team, at least temporarily?

 

[PistachioCookies]

Well, if we are going in that direction, deliberate exposure to Fog is the definition of training Integrity, although without an emergency exit button or someone to tell you you should probably leave now this is a bad idea.

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Would probably need Dreamwalking at higher levels, but we already have a level in that coming along anyway. If we hit Dreamwalking 3, it might be safe enough, since that level of skill might allow Amu to automatically Goho-M at any point she wants. Assuming there aren't just "safer" areas of the Dreamlands with shadows that Dreamwalking 2 will be fine for.

Ideally we'd have something like Charisma + Integrity + Empathy as Empathy training shouldn't be too problematic, but I got nothing on how to consistently use this offensively in an emergency?

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Would need to bring at least one partner along.

The way to shoehorn Integrity into it is if it's a joint attack being channeled through Amu - that is, Amu uses herself as a "signal booster" for someone else and channels/adds/synergizes their emotions together during the empathic broadcast to boost the power.

Or at least, that was the idea behind the last stunt that would've used that combination of stats.

...In hindsight, I think I figured out why that would've been a 3 point stunt now.

With Amu's main self being a Shadow Self, such an arrangement could hypothetically be construed as Amu effectively turning herself into a Persona for her partners for the duration of the attack.

 

[Quine]

Essence Gathering Temper (Resistance 1/Essence 1),

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This one got errata'd. I don't know how much of the errata Baughn is using, but the original was overpowered and cheesable.

Flawless Diagnosis Technique (Medicine 1/Essence 1) + Lore for interpretation, and perhaps Instant Treatment Methodology (Medicine 2/Essence 2, might be redundant with Biokinesis), and lastly

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It'd take a very unusual situation for Instant Treatment Methodology to be useful for us. Biokinesis mostly just outclasses it. ITM lets us perform treatments in seconds, but Biokinesis lets us do that too, without medicine, without tools, out to full mental range. ITM needs tools and medicine, and is Touch keyworded.

Sagacious Reading of Intent (Linguistics 1/Essence 1, but I consider this redundant between Socialise and Empathy most of the time).

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The charm is absolute in ways Socialize and Empathy aren't, but it'd be hard to justify the opportunity cost.

 

[veekie]

"When they are in a good mood and wish to be extravagant" is pretty conditional and dependent on circumstance or luck. My understanding was that Socialize 3 allows the user to bypass that luck and circumstance entirely, by being so good at discerning motivations and flattering people they are able to engineer the conditions by hand, putting their target into a such a good mood and making them feel so magnanimous they feel like giving favors - not just take advantage of an existing situation.

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You described Presence/Performance, not Socialize. They work by generating an intimacy and then leveraging it to persuade. Whethr that is inducing fear(intimidation) or euphoria(uplifting performances) its the same mechanic.

Socialize generally does not create or alter opposing intimacies. Socialize works by identifying intimacies and then presenting your own most appealing intimacies to better appeal to theirs, while concealing your opposed intimacies from them. At higher levels you can present entirely false or misrepresented intimacies, at lower obviously its too easy to get caught out.

This can be as simple as pretending to like the same music they do, or feigning a political allegiance.

 

[PistachioCookies]

You described Presence/Performance, not Socialize. They work by generating an intimacy and then leveraging it to persuade. Whethr that is inducing fear(intimidation) or euphoria(uplifting performances) its the same mechanic.

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Flattery is listed as a trait effect for Socialize 1.

Socialize may be less direct than Presence at endearing people to the user, but the point of flattery is still to endear the target to the user (through words instead of, well, presence). The main difference as far as I can see is, you're using "only" words instead of force of personality to manage it. And that's on Socialize 1.

If you want to insist it absolutely can't be used, in any direct or indirect manner, to change someone's mood then fine - because the exact mechanics behind Socialize creating the endearment don't actually matter (mood, trust, greed, hope for material benefit, etc.) only the fact that Socialize is able to engineer it, through some unspecified means of "flattery".

With implication that, by Socialize 3, the user can engineer it to such extent that someone will be willing to grant you political favors, without any prior luck or circumstance being involved.

Unless you're wanting to tell me that "flattery" actually means something else entirely?

 

[quantum lurker]

If you want to insist it absolutely can't be used, in any direct or indirect manner, to change someone's mood then fine

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According to veekie's explanation,
Socialise: Leverage existing levers better or bring them to the forefront of the other party's mind, remove or manuever around spikes (which does indirectly affect someone's mood, by definition - if nothing else as compared to the counterfactual timeline of not having Socialise)
Presence/Performance: Create new levers for immediate use

Socialise 3 to get favours from someone with no readily usable levers would probably settle that by indirection and expending more time: Get someone to use Presence/Performance/Investigation/Larceny on your behalf by looking for someone else first?
(Aka give connections to/do services for/bribe or blackmail the other party indirectly instead)

 

[PistachioCookies]

Socialise 3 to get favours from someone with no readily usable levers would probably settle that by indirection and expending more time: Get someone to use Presence/Performance/Investigation/Larceny on your behalf by looking for someone else first?
(Aka give connections to/do services for the other party indirectly instead)

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Well being fair, if there are no levers whatsoever, Socialize just doesn't work. We know this, because we got told that Socialize just flat out won't work on certain types of demons.

Conversely, the implication is that if it IS human (or fairy, apparently), it will have levers that Socialize can use to engineer such effects as the sorts listed in the rulebook.

 

[veekie]

If its a complete person it will have levers, because a person will have multiple drivers that sometimes conflict, and manipulating which one is in front can have a great impact.

If its a beast or automaton, playing with their social levers will get you nowhere, they'd just have their basic directives in strict priority order.

Can't use socialize if they don't have capacity to form a society.

E: apologies for being somewhat chunked, the phone screen isn't very responsive.

With implication that, by Socialize 3, the user can engineer it to such extent that someone will be willing to grant you political favors, without any prior luck or circumstance being involved.

Unless you're wanting to tell me that "flattery" actually means something else entirely?

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Flattery means identifying key intimacies and appealing to them. Find out what a person takes pride in,and construct a way to praise that in a plausible manner

Weak flattery is just spraying and praying that you hit something. Thats Performance.

 

[Baughn]

Took a while, but the update is with my betas. I expect to publish it tomorrow.

In lieu of that feel free to overanalyse my writing music, which I'd say applies to just this world as a whole really. I'd recommend turning on subtitles.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puuMWCSV7uQ

Weak flattery is just spraying and praying that you hit something. Thats Performance.

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Performance is a bit more than that. It targets a crowd, not a person; and that doesn't just mean it's (necessarily) less targeted, but there are also elements of persuasion that can only be used on crowds, as most of us know instinctively. Whether that be church song, or the companionship of cheering in a soccer game, or peer pressure in a cult... Performance is very much its own thing.

This does mean it's beneficial to have both, of course. You need Performance to create a cult; but you need Presence or another related skill to handle the people who don't buy it. Those will always exist.

...not that I'm suggesting Amu should create any cults. In fact, I'd recommend she tear them down if she comes across any. Would be a good idea.

Ideally we'd have something like Charisma + Integrity + Empathy as Empathy training shouldn't be too problematic, but I got nothing on how to consistently use this offensively in an emergency?
We could also go for whatever combo Biokinesis or Thermokinesis keys off, but that will be traumatising and really PR unfriendly so)

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I spent a fun half-hour working out how Amu would handle herself in a D&D world, and we came up with several different variants.

First off, canon Amu would just go splat. She lacks either durability or offensive power, and the few esoteric skills she has would make her a huge target. Best case she dies, more likely she'd become someone's guinea pig... it isn't any good.

The Amu we're looking at right now would have a better chance. She's subtler; she understands people a fair bit better, and would realise she has to keep herself hidden. Given a chance, she'd take a job as a baker's apprentice or something; it's not as though she'd have trouble finding anyone's levers. Which is well and good, and in a couple of months she could train a skill like Thermokinesis up to genuine usefulness, but if something like an adventurer group discovers her presence...

Well. They'd probably kill her by accident. She's squishy, in a way nothing of her power is in that world. (Also she'd register as an entity from the Far Plane to anyone capable of checking, which is rarely a good sign. They wouldn't wait and see.)

Solar Amu, of course, is a different story.

...

The Solars' biggest trick is leadership, and everything that goes with that. This is also Amu's biggest trick, even if she doesn't fully realise it yet. "Leadership" may be a euphemism for UMI in both cases, but the fact is that neither solars nor Amu need to use that to manoeuvre themselves into powerful positions; even when handicapped that way, they're still well above human.

None of which helps at all if a demon casts Agidyne on you. High-speed regeneration is no good if a single attack spell can kill you.

Just some food for thought.

 

[PistachioCookies]

None of which helps at all if a demon casts Agidyne on you. High-speed regeneration is no good if a single attack spell can kill you.

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So that's a hint we should be investing in Resistance, or at least Astral Projection wherein Integrity can substitute for Resistance?

 

[Quine]

None of which helps at all if a demon casts Agidyne on you. High-speed regeneration is no good if a single attack spell can kill you.

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Although if you get crazy fast, you can regenerate faster than it kills you. Probably not a viable approach for Amu, though.

So that's a hint we should be investing in Resistance, or at least Astral Projection wherein Integrity can substitute for Resistance?

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Or boost Mental Range and Clairvoyance and handle situations without even being there at all, or get some defensive gear, or improve the telekinetic barrier, or get some biokinetic mods...

I wonder how Baughn is going to handle Resistance. In baseline Exalted 2e, Resistance does very little to increase your durability without actual Resistance charms. SMT defensive stats scale very differently, though.

 

[PistachioCookies]

Or boost Mental Range and Clairvoyance and handle situations without even being there at all.

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If that were possible, I'd assume it would also be a situation where Amu could also feasibly use "leadership" to just send someone else to do the job in her place. But the way that hypothetical was posed seems to imply there will, unavoidably, be situations where there's going to be a demon or demons right up in her face, irrespective of any efforts to stay away.

 

[quantum lurker]

Well. They'd probably kill her by accident. She's squishy, in a way nothing of her power is in that world. (Also she'd register as an entity from the Far Plane to anyone capable of checking, which is rarely a good sign. They wouldn't wait and see.)

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If she is aware of this fact, I'd rate current-Amu as having a decent chance actually - she needs to train Precog (suddenly someone accidentally murders you is probably a high impact thing) and then Teleportation (most people can't catch up because related spells are high level), and may end up having to drop everything and run fairly often, using Precog to leave pre-written messages for whoever is pursuing her.

Mind Control and Empathy would probably give her a decent chance at figuring out local culture, which would impress on her the need to be ready to GTFO too?

The Solars' biggest trick is leadership, and everything that goes with that. This is also Amu's biggest trick, even if she doesn't fully realise it yet.

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I take this is because a significant part of the rulebooks are designed to facilitate that (including with the Magnitude systems and all)?

As for Amu, yeah, that makes sense - she doesn't need to handle the apocalypse alone and would be flattened into a ball if she tried; empowering others/coordinating them is far easier in comparison.

None of which helps at all if a demon casts Agidyne on you. High-speed regeneration is no good if a single attack spell can kill you.

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Well, that's what Precog + Teleportation or Biokinesis 4+ is for, right?

(Also, Baughn mentioned earlier that there is one Shard of the Sun, the Moon and one Maiden, but any idea on which? Maybe it's Mercury?)

 

[Quine]

If that were possible, I'd assume it would also be a situation where Amu could also feasibly use "leadership" to just send someone else to do the job in her place. But the way that hypothetical was posed seems to imply there will, unavoidably, be situations where there's going to be a demon or demons right up in her face, irrespective of any efforts to stay away.

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If there's a demon in her face that she can't fly or teleport away from, I don't see Astral Projection doing a whole lot for her.

 

[quantum lurker]

Precog 2 goes a long, long, long way for that sort of problem, given the sniper clause mentioned above (and Demons are presumably predictable after they are summoned, unless they are summoned right in Amu's face).

defensive gear

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Best way around that is probably a Illusion ablative shell with translucent properties (that is, exotic matter/metamaterials), moved around by Telekinesis?

Since if current defensive gear actually worked in Nocturne things wouldn't be so bad

 

[PistachioCookies]

If there's a demon in her face that she can't fly or teleport away from, I don't see Astral Projection doing a whole lot for her.

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Soul armor.

She projects it on herself, like wearing a Persona. Since it's powered by her psionics, its durability is presumably tied to her own Overgrowth and Integrity, in the sense that if it breaks, her Integrity will let her survive the resulting mental abrasion.

 

[Quine]

Soul armor.

She projects it on herself, like wearing a Persona. Since it's powered by her psionics, its durability is presumably tied to her own Overgrowth and Integrity, in the sense that if it breaks, her Integrity will let her survive the resulting mental abrasion.

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...but you don't wear those? Maybe it'd be possible to make Astral Projection work that way, especially with high dot ratings, but it sounds like a really weird way to try to handle things.

 

[quantum lurker]

...but you don't wear those?

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Looking at Charas, are you sure about that?

 

[PistachioCookies]

...but you don't wear those? Maybe it'd be possible to make Astral Projection work that way, especially with high dot ratings, but it sounds like a really weird way to try to handle things.

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Personas definitely take hits for their users though - and Queen in P5 rides hers as a motorbike.

It costs the same to buy Astral Projection as it does to level Resistance right now, but between Resistance 2 and using Astral Projection in concert with Integrity 3 and Overgrowth 4, it's possible you might get better durability out of it for the cost. Plus, it does do things that Resistance doesn't.

The next levels would also be cheaper and possibly more efficient to train than Resistance too. Just imagine what Amu would need to do to train Resistance 3+.