Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

[PistachioCookies]

Taken to an extreme that means we shouldn't ever question another's decision or play a part in it (at least, without being invited to do so; which Makoto is likely to do).

I take you did not mean that extreme, so are there suitable scenarios in your mind where initiating such actions would be acceptable?

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I'd hope I'm not that extreme, so yes, there would be scenarios where I'd swallow my distaste.

The immediate example that comes to mind would be if Makoto wanted to start a demon-hunting vigilante group driven purely by motivations of revenge. Like, not for safety, but just because she's out to stab demons for what they did to her friends and admitted her idea is basically trying to rally a psychic lynch mob to help her do it.

In this is kind of scenario, I think I wouldn't be averse to even using UMI to get her to cool her head off. If Socialize could do it without the UMI, that's even better. This is the kind of situation where Amu would be a bad friend if she let Makoto do it for those kinds of reasons.

But it would have to be that kind of specific situation. I don't see those happening especially often and if it does, I suspect it would be the kind of thing like the above scenario where even if Socialize is better, use of UMI is also not unwarranted.

I wonder what you think about the potential necessity of Amu needing to get better at concealment?

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Depends on what she's using the concealment for. Most of the uses for concealment that I can imagine would involve some form of manipulation. Even with the Scavengers, you could make the argument that a good citizen should have reported serial killers to the authorities as soon as they found out said people had a body count.

For Socialize to be better than just stonewalling with Integrity or WP, the person prying would have to already be Amu's friend (or family in the case of Midori). More than that, it would have to be a friend that Amu can't entirely trust (since otherwise, she could probably spill the details with fairly minor consequence, like with her mother).

At present, I'm not sure if that's a situation she faces, although if Amu does wind up with friends that incessantly pry and that she can't entirely trust, they themselves might be a bigger problem than Amu's lack of social skills.

By that logic constructing (good-faith) arguments would also be verboten even without any dice rolls? (It is arguable whether Lelouch was arguing here in good faith, or whether he had enough information to reach a good decision, but that is something else entirely)

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From what I recall, the QM indicated a good-faith well-reasoned (at least from the target's perspective) argument would not need a dice roll to pass.

If it does, it comes into conflict with some belief of the target and that is when you start needing to use stats and rolling dice.

 

[Quickshot0]

Using Socialize in that manner tends to be manipulative, because it turns it from a wholly transactional relationship (that everyone understands is a business relationship) into one that blurs the lines.

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With in my frame of reference a business relationship is also a social interaction. So for me this is like saying, don't use social, use social instead. Which obviously isn't a sensible argument.

In the end a business relationship is operating with in the correct social norms and etiquette after all.

Socialize isn't used for defense. The defensive stat is Integrity.

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That's perhaps true mechanically. But fluff wise that isn't panning out. We're losing on arguably defensive matters where clamming up with integrity isn't good enough.

When reasoning out why, this is probably because we're just leaking to much information against people who can do social reading. And increasing integrity won't change that, as making it harder to change your mind won't stop the information leak.



Also it is worth noting that being able to do a minimal amount of socialize so one doesn't breach the most basic etiquette and customs is a pretty good idea even just for debating or discussing something (for instance to learn things). Like being able to present ones point of view and what one knows and what one wants to learn in a coherent and clear fashion, rather then in a broken mess that people would find hard to parse and understand. So even just for a discussion with no attempt to change some ones mind, it would be a useful thing to have.

But it would also thus be useful for transactions, considering the kind of promise she just made in pretty much a panic with Naomi. It's hard to make reasonable transactions when you just give pretty much everything away.

As such I think you're looking at socialize way to much as a combative tool, rather then how it is described in fluff as a way to fit in more neatly with in social systems and interactions.


In any case, as I've once noted before our stats, abilities, etc are apparently literally translating in to what the character is able to do. And thus I think there is potentially a problem with a character that fluff wise is unable to handle standard social conventions and etiquette, it is perhaps normal for a child. But it certainly seems to limit her abilities fluff wise to achieve transactions, meetings, social interactions in general, etc.

Whether this is important enough versus other skills to spend the time on is another matter. But I find it hard to reasonably argue that being able to handle standard interactions has no value at all.

 

[PistachioCookies]

With in my frame of reference a business relationship is also a social interaction. So for me this is like saying, don't use social, use social instead. Which obviously isn't a sensible argument.

In the end a business relationship is operating with in the correct social norms and etiquette after all.

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I mean if you want to take a broad view on it, all relationships are social constructs.

But if we're going by the definition of Socialize being the stat used for gaining understanding about someone and making friends, it is plenty possible to conduct a business transaction without any personal understanding of the other party or being friends. It may certainly help, but not strictly necessary.

You don't necessarily need to know why Lulu wants to buy jewels or what she plans to use them for (or even whether Lulu is her real name), as long as you know she's willing to pay for a bunch of them. Socialize can help you gain that information, but.... so can a whole bunch of other skills (Lore, Clairvoyance and Precog being the first to come to mind).

Whether this is important enough versus other skills to spend the time on is another matter. But I find it hard to reasonably argue that being able to handle standard interactions has no value at all.

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I agree, Socialize is definitely not useless and doesn't have to be used for manipulation.

The example I used with Makoto being blinded by revenge is basically what @Quine suggested could happen regarding "what if Makoto's plan wasn't really what she truly wanted". And it would be nice to have for those kinds of scenarios, just can't help but question how often such scenarios will come along.

 

[quantum lurker]

It may certainly help, but not strictly necessary.

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It's not strictly necessary once you are already in the correct context, but getting to said context may require, well, Socialisation (think of IRL scenarios - business deals require effort to make connections before they can happen most of the time).
I think your scenarios for appropriate use (of Socialise/Manipulation) make sense and do account for potential character-related issues of misusing talking/UMI/Psionics; it's something I can agree with in the broad stroke, and the finer strokes are all case-by-case.

However, putting mechanics aside, I think there isn't anything narratively problematic with learning how to socialise better with her mom, and that not doing so will likely give us more narrative problems like being too transparent towards people we shouldn't be fully transparent with (Hotsuin to an extent, or the Press, or malicious actors, or perhaps the Scavengers), or more coerced promises/really bad deals (Naomi, Utau's own past experiences)?

Learning the 'rules' of culture and socialisation narratively (not mechanically) helps you learn when they are being flagrantly bent or broken to your harm IC, and so depending on how things shake out it might be something we would really be thankful for in the future?
(Also, there are scenarios where not being able to hide our discomfort also counts as Manipulation, if unintended - giving things a fair shake can be really difficult sometimes)

 

[PistachioCookies]

It's not a narrative problem, it's really more a matter of the training time. The mechanics are the main problem. Thanks to her having no dots in it at all, learning Socialize means learning a completely new Ability. Amu's mother can cut the XP cost down from 3 to 2 as a teacher, but it will still take 3 weeks worth of training time for that dot (though apparently we can get a half-dot for free, for however much of an effect that makes).

Otherwise, sure, Amu would probably like very much to be able to make actual friends (ones that she's not being friendly with just so they can be convinced to send men to crack down on Manticore) without putting her foot in her mouth.

Though, I don't think Naomi actually counts as Amu's friend right now. She's Kana's friend, but I was getting the impression that Amu in-character was avoiding speaking much with her and kind of intimidated by her.

....Yeah. This:

Naomi didn't strike Amu as particularly nice. Not... bad? She wasn't sure. But there was just something about the girl that was unsettling, the way she felt when she looked at Kana and Aoi and Yui. Less like they were friends or siblings than possessions. Or tools. Like something precious but expendable, and maybe Amu didn't like Naomi either-

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[quantum lurker]

Fair. Was thinking of slow rolling together with Lore at 1 hour per day => 3 * 48 / (1/2 * 1.25)= ~230 days, as I do not care when it finishes so much as the effort being consistently invested this way as far as narrative is concerned.

Does said 1 hour break our other calcs for stuff finishing before Hikawa does his thing? If it does I don't mind tabling this discussion for afterwards.

(Yeah, I get the feeling Amu is only really friends with Kana, and cares about the rest of the Scavengers by proxy as things currently stand too)

 

[PistachioCookies]

3 weeks of training time is for 8 hours a day, at 6 days per week. So that means 144 hours needed. At a single hour a day, you're looking at 5 months before getting that dot.

That's a long time before seeing any results and will also eat into the training time for the other stats simultaneously being trained, slowing down their completion time too. If we were doing it at all, I'd honestly rather put more hours and have it complete sooner, than wait that long.

(I don't think we actually have any idea of how long Hikawa will take to summon Conception, I think the guess was maybe a year at the start of the quest, now maybe closer to 9 months)

 

[quantum lurker]

Hm, Dreamwalking is 'free' time wise, Integrity is non-negotiable, should we cut Lore from the list next round until Illusion finishes? Though Integrity is hard capped at maximum speed (it won't finish anytime soon) so might as well stunt with something else for net time savings

I don't think we actually have any idea of how long Hikawa will take to summon Conception

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(Don't we have a Precog Timer for this though?)

 

[PistachioCookies]

(Don't we have a Precog Timer for this though?)

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While it might be possible to work out based on where the "precognitive event horizon" is, we still haven't spoken with any precogs about it in-universe. I think the only hint we've actually had about Hikawa even being active so far in the story was from Lulu's interlude, where it was just our inference based on a "calcinating circle" being mentioned.

Also, I think the Lore training was only for a half-dot and might already have finished (not sure).

Though I do find it amusing that we're debating whether to spend our free time on books versus socializing. If Amu were the one making that choice in-character, I don't imagine it would take very long for her to pick .

....I have a feeling the voter debate might take a bit longer.

 

[Baughn]

Well due to that Amu seems to have even failed at stonewalling, being so poor at it she couldn't even achieve that.

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Something like that was proposed, though if I recall it was also noted that she'd end up using all her willpower and still lose by Baughn. Which is a thing then that can happen I guess.

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It's not a thing that's probable. Normally you could disengage, but Amu and Midori were both running up against a four-dot intimacy here, to keep it mechanical.

In other words: Amu isn't able to disengage from a quarrel with her mother. That just isn't in her toolbox.

Apparently nobody, not even her own parents, actually trusts Amu enough to take her at her immediate word without triggering a Socialize roll.

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Lots of people do! Including her parents usually. Uh.. I think you're forgetting the circumstances.

She nearly succeeded, but (because it's her mother) the conversation lasted long enough that Midori idly caused Amu to spill the beans. She wasn't even particularly trying; that was not a social attack in the usual sense.

Amu rolled socialise to replicate how an Amu who was not going to meet her serial killer friend would act in that circumstance. And failed.

because Lulu is his cousin here and had some effect on his mentality, that may no longer apply here.

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Might as well confirm this. It isn't the only reason, and if everything else was identical he'd still be that guy, but this isn't the DeSu2 version of the timeline; it's the Nocturne one.

As an example, if Makoto were to approach Amu with a "psychic vigilante" idea

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That's the student council. You're describing the student council.

Amu isn't in it. That's mostly because Amakawa wanted to give her a year off to be a regular girl and learn regular things; nothing that would need her was supposed to happen.

From what I recall, the QM indicated a good-faith well-reasoned (at least from the target's perspective) argument would not need a dice roll to pass.

If it does, it comes into conflict with some belief of the target and that is when you start needing to use stats and rolling dice.

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That's perhaps true mechanically. But fluff wise that isn't panning out. We're losing on arguably defensive matters where clamming up with integrity isn't good enough.

When reasoning out why, this is probably because we're just leaking to much information against people who can do social reading. And increasing integrity won't change that, as making it harder to change your mind won't stop the information leak.

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Basically correct. Socialise can't make social attacks, but it does help you figure out when someone else is acting in an unusual way.

While I'm at it, I should note that normal adults all have at least one point of socialise, and someone who doesn't would be considered defective. This isn't true for middle schoolers—but a social clumsiness and transparency that would be considered cute in a child, becomes detrimental by the time you're in high school.

It also isn't as true in societies like those of Creation, where there's far more room for hunter-gatherer styles, barbarians, low grade farming villages and so on…

It isn't like those people are any less clever. They have just as many ability dots, but they're spread across survival / martial skills, crafting skills and so forth, while practically everything you need in modern society falls under socialise, manipulate or lore.

 

[PistachioCookies]

Amu rolled socialise to replicate how an Amu who was not going to meet her serial killer friend would act in that circumstance. And failed.

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Yes, but failing that roll would also have been irrelevant if Midori had still trusted Amu to handle herself no matter what the undisclosed secret was. She didn't, which is why we got:

"Can you bring one of your friends?" her mother asked, her voice trembling slightly. "Utau? Nagi-chan? Kukai, even?"

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She wanted a babysitter to tag along. Nagihiko is the same age as her. Kukai is, what, only 1 year older. And she still trusted them to have better judgment than Amu.

I mean sure, she might have been right not to trust Amu, but ouch.

That's the student council. You're describing the student council.

Amu isn't in it. That's mostly because Amakawa wanted to give her a year off to be a regular girl and learn regular things; nothing that would need her was supposed to happen.

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I assume you mean the middle school student council, not the primary school Guardians.

I consider the Guardians (and this new middle school council) to be attached to the school, which I presume is itself a legally-established organization and so gives them some amount of legitimacy in that they have Tsukasa to vouch for them and he would presumably take the rap for it if anything went wrong.

As opposed.... you know. An informal group whose leader isn't even old enough to drive.

 

[Quickshot0]

But if we're going by the definition of Socialize being the stat used for gaining understanding about someone and making friends

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We got the exalted definition a little while ago, noting it was 'Socialize is the capacity to both to understand the feelings and motives of others and to negotiate the complex network of customs, manners and etiquette in every culture' Which is hardly just about making friends, making friends is a small subpart of this.

We could also look at the dictionary definition which is 'participate in social activities; mix socially with others.' Which also again clearly isn't just about making friends.

I think you're as such maybe overly narrowing what socialize covers, as it goes far beyond just making friends. And instead seems to cover the interactions between people in all its forms.

(I don't think we actually have any idea of how long Hikawa will take to summon Conception, I think the guess was maybe a year at the start of the quest, now maybe closer to 9 months)

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I had the impression that so far only a month or so has passed, in which case it would be 11 months.


I do further agree that training time on Socialize is a bit long which is a concern. But as mentioned by @Baughn it is considered a required skill with in society beyond a certain point, with negative implications if you're lacking, and you are much more readable by others as well if you're as low as Amu is right now.

Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose we don't necessarily need to know every culture? At least not right now, so a relatively free half dot may suffice for now? At the least it would give something to compare to I guess?

 

[Skelm]

What do you imagine it getting used for?

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In a strictly mechanical sense, Socialize is the equivalent of War for Mass Social Combat, the jankiest 2ed combat system.

In a more typical usage, it's what you use to understand and navigate social norms and groups, that isn't covered by Presence, Performance, or Investigation. Do you want to collect rumors? Spread them? Suppress them? Acquire a reputation? Gather a network of allies, or dismantle someone else's? You talk of bribery and threats, but do you want to know the proper way to deliver either? Perhaps most importantly, do you want to be taken seriously by people who think themselves serious, despite being 13? Socialize does all of these things.

 

[PistachioCookies]

OTOH, being readable by other people also makes Amu more trustworthy to others, if she comes off as clearly incapable of lying. That offsets the ability to lie somewhat.

To get any actual advantage over "normal adults" - bearing in mind there is a good question of how many of the ones we are going to meet are normal, as opposed to some form of crazy (you would not call Hotsuin or Fumi normal) - she needs more than just a single dot in it.

I think you're as such maybe overly narrowing what socialize covers, as it goes far beyond just making friends. And instead seems to cover the interactions between people in all its forms.

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Making friends and understanding people solely for the sake of empathizing with them are the benign uses of it.

The other parts include the less savory uses like what's been discussed up to now. Yeah, sure, you can use it pump people for information so that you know what sort of carrot to dangle in front of them during your business dealings. To find out which buttons to push so Amu can make people do what she wants. To organize social cliques the same way that War is used to organize military units. I'm not going to retread my opinions about those kind of uses, gone over that already.

You talk of bribery and threats, but do you want to know the proper way to deliver either? Perhaps most importantly, do you want to be taken seriously by people who think themselves serious, despite being 13? Socialize does all of these things.

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Threats and intimidation are covered by Presence.

Bribery doesn't need much delivery, the whole point is that the bribe speaks for itself.

As for being taken seriously despite being 13, I assume Illusion can do a pretty good job at making Amu not look 13. Even if the words that come out of her mouth might seem juvenile. That's if Presence doesn't also cover that.

 

[Quickshot0]

Making friends and understanding people solely for the sake of empathizing with them are the benign uses of it.

The other parts include the less savory uses like what's been discussed up to now. Yeah, sure, you can use it pump people for information so that you know what sort of carrot to dangle in front of them during your business dealings. To find out which buttons to push so Amu can make people do what she wants. To organize social cliques the same way that War is used to organize military units. I'm not going to retread my opinions about those kind of uses, gone over that already.

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It seems you are forgetting or misunderstanding the definition I quoted for you.

'Socialize is the capacity to both to understand the feelings and motives of others and to negotiate the complex network of customs, manners and etiquette in every culture'

That is far far more broad then what you are portraying there. If you want to make business deals, then this is required to do it well. If you want to make transactions and not offend your hosts, then this is a good idea. If you want to talk to random people on the street in a polite way, this is useful. If you don't want to give away your secrets by not being easy to cold read, this is something you'll probably need. If one wants to show a journalist one is in control of ones self and will fit in well with the rest of society, as she is, then this is again what you'd need.

There are many many benign uses of this, negative things like helping in manipulating people I would argue is an absolute minority of what you'd use this for, assuming you ever did. Socialize in modern society is something you constantly use where ever you go, so that you fit with in the customs and norms of ones society, so that one can navigate the normal societal ways to solve problems, so that you even are taken seriously by it. This is also I think the only good explanation why the standard minimum for this skill in apparently 1 dot. Everyone doesn't normally just learn a skill they rarely use.


Now once again, whether it is worth the training time is something one could debate. There is only so much time before things get worse after all and many things have their uses. But this particular skill is something that would absolutely show up constantly in the story in various ways, as socialize is obviously a skill any normal person in society uses to interact with other people. So understanding the basics of this would help understand each interaction better.

 

[PistachioCookies]

It seems you are forgetting or misunderstanding the definition I quoted for you.

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No misunderstanding.

understand the feelings and motives of others

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= Gathering personal information/what makes you tick.

Understanding and empathizing with people for the heck of it are the benign use cases of this.

Using this to grease a business transaction is another, more questionable use, as widespread as it may be. There are even less flattering uses for that kind of information that I'm sure you can imagine.

and to negotiate the complex network of customs, manners and etiquette in every culture

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Making friends is the nice use case of this. Again, we've already discussed the not-so-nice use cases.

You seem to be taking the view that not having any dots in it will result in Amu automatically making enemies everywhere she goes by pissing off random people in the street or offending hosts through impoliteness.

I would only expect that for having negative dots in it, but even if we supposed 0 dots would cause that, it would also likely only be the case if Amu were an adult and ugly.

Being 13 and having 3 dots in Appearance gives her a lot of leniency. Or, as the QM put it, "cute in a child".

 

[Quickshot0]

Using this to grease a business transaction is another

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You interpreting it like that is interesting. But most business transactions are far more small scale and common in interaction. Like a company contracting out some automation work to one person or a small group. Where it's really more about what they want, whether it can be achieved, what are the alternatives, how much will each of these options cost. Basically what will best satisfy the needs of the client.

In plenty of cases it isn't about making friends or enemies, just getting something done. Which requires some preliminary negotiation work to make sure everyone is on the same page and everything is sorted, etc. Basically to use social skills to just continue forward efficiently and with minimal friction.

I don't really see what is questionable about such things, those just seem like requirements if one wants to do a job well.


My point as such is really that life is full of many of these small things people just don't even really think about. But in reality Social events are constant, and they are often not about maneuvering for position, positive, negative, or such things. And instead are just about for instance resolving a problem which has a social aspect to it, which pretty much any group effort will have.

Want to coordinate a group well, socialize can help with that. Arguably it's one of the main things socialize is about, getting people to get along at scale. Thus making it unsurprising it is now considered a requirement in large 'societies'.


I'm as such not thinking about just some narrow thing like making an enemy. That's just one sub branch of options, though I think we can all agree that preferably Amu doesn't make any of these if at all possible. Even if that is probably unrealistic.

And yes, being a kid with a good appearance will certainly help her. That is pretty obviously true, though it is also obviously not even close to a complete substitute to being able to socialize. But yes, kids can often be forgiven for their mistakes. I'm more concerned in this case because the world is predicted to go to hell... and when things get bad just a cute look might not be enough any more. Though this is of course speculation by me.



Now I once again will note whether it is worth training for is something one can debate. I'm not discussing it in such depth to argue we definitely need to train it now and instead because I think you're being overly reductionistic on what socializing actually is about. You're often expressing it in terms of friends, enemies and manipulating, which I think is not a very complete overview of it.

 

[Skelm]

Threats and intimidation are covered by Presence.

Bribery doesn't need much delivery, the whole point is that the bribe speaks for itself.

As for being taken seriously despite being 13, I assume Illusion can do a pretty good job at making Amu not look 13. Even if the words that come out of her mouth might seem juvenile. That's if Presence doesn't also cover that.

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If you don't aspire to be anything more then a brute thug, perhaps you can get by with just using Presence to intimidate people. But this approach to life has a lot of drawbacks, and there are a lot of things you just can't get this way. The same goes for, uh, using Illusion to construct an entire fake adult identity (is this supposed to be less manipulative somehow?).

Bribes absolutely do not speak for themselves. Bribes form part of an ongoing relationship that has to be developed and maintained just like any other. You have to find something the other person wants, you have to convince them dealing with you won't come back to bite them somehow (one of the drawbacks of being a thug is that this gets harder), you have to not personally offend them along the way, and so on.

Ultimately you can substitute for having any understanding of social environments with other things, but the substitutes are mostly worse in one way or another, including ethically, which is why people usually don't do that.

 

[PistachioCookies]

You interpreting it like that is interesting. But most business transactions are far more small scale and common in interaction. Like a company contracting out some automation work to one person or a small group. Where it's really more about what they want, whether it can be achieved, what are the alternatives, how much will each of these options cost. Basically what will best satisfy the needs of the client.

In plenty of cases it isn't about making friends or enemies, just getting something done. Which requires some preliminary negotiation work to make sure everyone is on the same page and everything is sorted, etc. Basically to use social skills to just continue forward efficiently and with minimal friction.

I don't really see what is questionable about such things, those just seem like requirements if one wants to do a job well.

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Again, even in such a transaction that requires extensive querying, there is more than one way to acquire that kind of information.

Even in 2e Exalted, Investigation can also be used for discerning motivation and finding out what people want (Perception + Investigation instead of Perception + Socialize). Acquiring blackmail information itself is cited in the Socialize description as requiring Larceny, rather than just Socialize. Lore can tell you whether something is feasible and what potential alternatives are and what they will cost. You would not want to rely on social skills alone to determine whether a seller is giving you an accurate quote and not overstate how much something would cost.

Bureaucracy is actually what is stated to cover business transactions according to the rulebook. Commerce is a specialization under it.

You're often expressing it in terms of friends, enemies and manipulating, which I think is not a very complete overview of it.

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And you, perhaps, might be looking too broadly at it.

Let me just remind you that right underneath the first sentence for Socialize in the rulebook that you quoted is: "While Socialize is used to blackmail someone or to start rumor campaigns..."

And then proceeds to list off the lovely use cases of flattery, seduction, garnering political favors and lying under the trait effects.

I actually feel like I'm being fairly open-minded here by accepting the idea of it being usable for nicer things at all, despite the rulebook pretty heavily implying otherwise.

Bribes absolutely do not speak for themselves. Bribes form part of an ongoing relationship that has to be developed and maintained just like any other. You have to find something the other person wants, you have to convince them dealing with you won't come back to bite them somehow (one of the drawbacks of being a thug is that this gets harder), you have to not personally offend them along the way, and so on.

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Uh.... no, bribes do not have to form part of an ongoing relationship.

The whole point is that you are replacing trust with material benefits. Nobody you are bribing is meant to trust you, just that your bribe is legitimate in that it is what you say they are getting.

I don't agree that you have to convince them dealing with you won't come back to bite them either.

Although, even if you did, it would not be Socialize that you would be using to push that argument.

It would be Bureaucracy.

Bribery and Illegal Business are specializations of that ability.

 

[Quickshot0]

And you, perhaps, might be looking too broadly at it.

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Maybe, but on the other hand so far I can tell so far in this story fluff some what dominates over mechanics in many a case. So I've been looking at what is happening in the text and what we got in comment on the matter. And based on that I think those examples in the book miss much of what the author actually does with it. That socialize actually means 'socialize', as in the dictionary definition.

In which case socialize is everywhere and the exalt books examples are just a rather narrow and rather negative slice of the whole.


Maybe I'm mistaken in this, but I've so far not heard anything to make me think otherwise.

 

[Skelm]

Uh.... no, bribes do not have to form part of an ongoing relationship.

The whole point is that you are replacing trust with material benefits. Nobody you are bribing is meant to trust you, just that your bribe is legitimate in that it is what you say they are getting.

I don't agree that you have to convince them dealing with you won't come back to bite them either.

Click to shrink...

I... look, have you ever read into the details of an actual bribery case? There's a process to these things. You have to get to know people. You have to figure out who's open to being bribed. You have to get an introduction, maybe through some superficially legitimate event, maybe through a mutual friend, maybe finding a "local consultant" with the right vibes if you don't have existing connections. You have to get comfortable with each other, you to know that they're not just going to stiff you, them to know that you won't turn them in or cause a scandal for them. You have to agree on the right euphemisms and structuring for the official record. And then, what you bribed them for is often some kind of ongoing permission or support (e.g. development approvals), so you've got to keep them happy with you on an ongoing basis. And once you're finished, if everything went well, you probably have new things you want to do that the same person could help with (e.g. new development approvals) and it just makes sense to continue working with the same person. And the prospect of this becoming an ongoing thing with recurring benefits is a big part of why both you and they were willing to go through the initial process despite how much of a pain it is, and a big part of what prevents you from betraying each other.

You can't just show up at someone's office with a briefcase full of cash and grunt at them.

 

[Baughn]

One major way in which this quest (and most quests!) differ from an actual game of Exalted, is that it operates at a higher level of abstraction.

In a tabletop game, the social skills used are generally the player's social skills -- this is somewhat explicit in White Wolf games, as stunt dice exist precisely to let good acting by players provide mechanical benefits, but even in a game of D&D it's common for social situations to be handled purely through player talk, without many dice being rolled.

Dice rules exist anyway, because players aren't all decent manipulators, the GM knows precisely what's going on and wouldn't be a realistic manipulation targets, and the game requires players to do social manipulation anyway. Hence there are rules for it, and the rules depend on dice. Hence, also, the rules target specifically the darker uses of it -- as the not-so-dark ones, that aren't typically contested, can be better handled by letting players roleplay.

In a quest, you don't typically get to put words in Amu's mouth. The ability dots correspond to Amu's actual skill, and that includes elements that would be handled by player skill in a tabletop game. As such, a lot of the ability descriptions from the sourcebooks come off as too combative -- since the combative usages were the main thing they'd be used for in the TTRPG version.

 

[PistachioCookies]

And the prospect of this becoming an ongoing thing with recurring benefits is a big part of why both you and they were willing to go through the initial process despite how much of a pain it is, and a big part of what prevents you from betraying each other.

You can't just show up at someone's office with a briefcase full of cash and grunt at them.

Click to shrink...

I said that they don't -have- to form part of an ongoing relationship.

Obviously they can, if you're taking the singular case of "ongoing permission or support" whereby you could very well need ongoing bribes to keep the favors flowing. But they don't -have- to be for ongoing support.

I am sure you're well aware of that.

The example you gave might be true for large-scale corporate or political matters. There are much smaller-scale versions where neither of the parties involved even have an office.

 

[Yu Narukaze]

Okay, given the QM's recent statement, I think it's safe to say that Socialize in this quest is... well, social skills. How to meet new people, how to avoid offending people by accident, how to do small talk... all that stuff.

As someone who arguably has 0 Socialize dots IRL, I can assure you all, this Ability is vital.

 

[PistachioCookies]

I take it that would mean you'd be in favor for training it over Lore?