Rei Ayanami Raising Project

[Lock93]

[X] From the Heart V2
-[X] First a apology is needed from Rei to Asuka and Shinji, She had good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions, she lied and gaslight Asuka, who she said she considers a friend, manipulated the other against Asuka, praying on his trust in her, she had a opportunity to come clean, to make them understand, to believe and trust in her fellow pilots who have risked their lives with and for her, but she didn't.
(Really push Rei to apologies)
-[X] After Rei has apologized, insist toward Asuka and Shinji that, yes, Rei has messed up but everybody mess up from time to time but the important is that she told the truth in the end and has learned a valuable lesson about trusting her teammate.

 

[BethofDeath]

Despite what Toonami may have thought, this isn't a Saturday morning cartoon. "Valuable lesson about trusting her teammates" is gonna backfire hard, because trusting her teammates got her head slammed into the floor and her teammate wanting to kill her.

 

[Undeadmuffin01]

Despite what Toonami may have thought, this isn't a Saturday morning cartoon. "Valuable lesson about trusting her teammates" is gonna backfire hard, because trusting her teammates got her head slammed into the floor and her teammate wanting to kill her.

Click to shrink...

We need to deescalate things, we cant let them both gang-up on Rei for 5 hours, we need to give a ramp down, no matter how cheesy it sound

 

[Lock93]

Despite what Toonami may have thought, this isn't a Saturday morning cartoon. "Valuable lesson about trusting her teammates" is gonna backfire hard, because trusting her teammates got her head slammed into the floor and her teammate wanting to kill her.

Click to shrink...

No, not trusting her teammates, her friends, has gotten Rei into her present situation, her lies and manipulation resulting in both Asuka and Shinji allied against her.

 

[VX-145]

No, not trusting her teammates, her friends, has gotten Rei into her present situation, her lies and manipulation resulting in both Asuka and Shinji allied against her.

Click to shrink...

I am going to go out on a limb and say three people ganging up on Rei is not going to help matters, especially when one of them promised to be on her side.

 

[Mechasaurian]

Well, this a fucking difficult situation.

Rei, to her credit, is being honest and forthright about her intentions. She is bluntly stating her intentions and thought processes, without any effort to pretty it up. But this does not paint her in a flattering light to her fellow pilots, and is enraging and alienating them.

Rei has made it clear that, while she did not do the worst thing she could have done to Asuka, she made a decision to prioritize Protocol over Asuka's emotional wellbeing, and is unrepentent about this.

Like. We can just push Rei to apologize, as the current plan calls for. But after what Rei has elaborated, I don't think it would be sincere on her part, and I don't think Shinji or Asuka would buy it.

 

[Lock93]

I am going to go out on a limb and say three people ganging up on Rei is not going to help matters, especially when one of them promised to be on her side.

Click to shrink...

We are on all of their sides, but ignoring the wrong that has been done is not going to help, ignoring it will only lead to Rei alienating both Shinji and Asuka.

And It stands to reason given our (MIsato's) past behavior we should do this, as every time Asuka has acted out through this quest, we stepped in to rebuke and try to help her, with her lies about her made up character (that had all of NERV looking for someone who didn't exist) to when she acted out against Rei due to the misunderstandings, misconceptions and being a general Tsundere, we did not let it any of it slide, so letting it slide with Rei will only vindicate Asuka's opinion that we favor Rei, over both her and Shinji, something we want to avoid.

Truth be told, I do not think it is to much to ask here, the fact that Asuka wants a apology seems like a good indicator that the current situation can be solved, that despite her words, and vitriol she is more hurt, than angry.

And honestly I believe she is owed one, Rei confirmed that she intentionally gaslight Asuka, that she manipulated and used Shinji against her, (and as a side note) these are Gendo traits, the type of behavior and word view (that uses people as pawns) that we should really, really try to crackdown on, less it lead to Rei doing more of the same later down the line.

Like. We can just push Rei to apologize, as the current plan calls for. But after what Rei has elaborated, I don't think it would be sincere on her part, and I don't think Shinji or Asuka would buy it.

Click to shrink...

It is more about making an effort to try to make Rei see the reason why she should apologize, then to push her towards a fake one, admittedly I am leaving it to the QMs discretion as to how it goes.

 

[VX-145]

We are on all of their sides, but ignoring the wrong that has been done is not going to help, ignoring it will only lead to Rei alienating both Shinji and Asuka.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it'll look that way to Rei. It'll look like the three others have unilaterally decided to gang up on her and started to hate her, the exact thing she said she didn't want to happen.

I'm also going to point out that this harm isn't being swept under the rug; hell I advocated for Misato to acknowledge it in the first place. I just don't think right now is the best time to push on this point, especially without any other context.

In this vein, I'll work on this a bit more.

[] Working on it v3
- [] Rei ideally should have acted differently - but given it was Gendo who raised her, and that any deviance was punished with death, that was never going to happen.
- [] Ask Rei to go over the events of the past week or so, or do it yourself. Include the part where Rei being used to hurt others through the Dummy Plug caused her to try to kill Gendo, and that you both had to strong-arm Ritsuko into not killing her. The consequences Rei mentioned are not hypothetical - Ritsuko was seconds away from killing her. For the eleventh time.
- [] Are either of the other kids under the impression they could do differently? If the consequence of speaking out was death and erasure, with the upbringing Rei has had?
- [] Point out that Rei is sharing this precisely because she thinks it's important, despite the risks to everyone here, and despite her own fears that people will hate her for this. You had to push her a bit, but she still did it.
-[] Yes, it's still pretty bad of Rei to manipulate Asuka in that way, and that it was the least bad option doesn't make it good. If necessary, explain to Rei here that if she considers Asuka a friend, she should apologise for the hurt done, even if it was for a reason she thought was good.
- [] Ask what, ideally, should Rei have done, and use this as a way to work out procedures the kids can rely on if something like this comes up again.
- [] Ultimately, all of you are victims of NERV.

The idea with the extras is to actually explain to Rei in terms she'll understand why Asuka might want an apology and give her possible alternate paths. I've also tried to condense BethofDeath's addition at the top there.

 

[Lock93]

My thoughts are jumbled here, as I am abut to settle down for the day, so apologies in advance if I ramble or seem incoherent, or for any spelling mistakes.

- [X] Ask Rei to go over the events of the past week or so, or do it yourself. Include the part where Rei being used to hurt others through the Dummy Plug caused her to try to kill Gendo, and that you both had to strong-arm Ritsuko into not killing her. The consequences Rei mentioned are not hypothetical - Ritsuko was seconds away from killing her. For the eleventh time.

Click to shrink...

I think this part should be best saved for later, after tempers have cooled down and the situation has (hopefully) been resolved, as at this point I think it will be seen as either more lies or deflection, trying to steer the conversation away from what Asuka and Shinji are focused on, best to save it for later (it is important) as they will both need to be told, so they both understand just how high the stakes are.

[X] Are either of the other kids under the impression they could do differently? If the consequence of speaking out was death and erasure, with the upbringing Rei has had?

Click to shrink...

Shinji already answered this

What was it that she intended to do, then? Shinji asks. Rei doesn't answer. Shinji raises his voice. If Rei had talked to him, he would have heard her out! She's his best friend. He doesn't care that she's a clone or an Angel. He's been doing what he can to protect her.

Click to shrink...

I believe him, if Rei had just talked to him, to Asuka (worse case scenario, Asuka taking a bit longer to come around) then I do believe things would have worked out, as their long combat history, living together, and their interactions with one another has show, that despite her bluster, Asuka does care about Rei.

Case in point, when she learned the truth about Rei's origins, she did not try to report it to NERV high command, or get in contact with Misato, or talk to anyone else, she confronted Rei directly face to face, not in her EVA unit, or armed with some kind of weapon, which to me is not something someone would do if she believed the other to be a monster/saboteur in disguise.

 

[BethofDeath]

[X] Working on it v3

Yeah I'm convinced.

 

[VX-145]

I think this part should be best saved for later, after tempers have cooled down and the situation has (hopefully) been resolved, as at this point I think it will be seen as either more lies or deflection, trying to steer the conversation away from what Asuka and Shinji are focused on, best to save it for later (it is important) as they will both need to be told, so they both understand just how high the stakes are.

Click to shrink...

My approach, philosophically, is to lay out the context of things so that they can be understood and worked around; it also serves the secondary and tertiary purposes of showing Asuka more concrete evidence of Rei actually caring about her, and maybe shocking the other kids out of the righteous anger phase.

Shinji already answered this

Click to shrink...

This is not "were there other options", it's "were there other options given the context of Rei Ayanami", which is a substantially different thing. Asuka has not been killed 10 times, with some of those times being for "acting out". Asuka was not raised by Gendo Ikari and a woman who hates the concept of Asuka. And, to be a little frank, it's a bit much for Shinji to say this right after completely failing to protect her five seconds ago.

 

[GreatWyrmGold]

We are on all of their sides, but ignoring the wrong that has been done is not going to help, ignoring it will only lead to Rei alienating both Shinji and Asuka.

Click to shrink...

It's not gonna help if we act like the kids know we're on all their sides, just because we say we are. That's exactly the kind of lie adults tell children all the time. Even if the kids were perfectly logical, they would not take Misato at her word.

But also, the kids aren't perfectly logical. We need to reprimand the kids for their bad behavior and get them to apologize, but we can't twist their arms too hard, because that will alienate them and also make it less likely that they'll actually listen. How hard is too hard? Good question!

Parenting is hard.


As for "Working on it v3," it feels kinda...off? Parts of it feel like we're trying to hammer in on the same point again and again, that Rei actually picked the best choice available. Which is probably accurate, but I don't think emphasizing it further is going to convince Asuka of anything if Rei doesn't also show remorse for gaslighting Asuka, if she doesn't recognize why Asuka still feels hurt.

Most of it is throwing NERV in general and Gendo in specific under the bus. I get why you want to do that; it's hardly inaccurate to blame them, and if convincing our pilots that Gendo is untrustworthy would solve a few major long-term problems. But I have less than absolute faith in Misato's ability to convince our pilots that Gendo is untrustworthy, especially at a chaotic time like this. And if we fail, we'll alienate Shinji and Rei (who still care about Gendo, despite everything) and convince Asuka that we're trying to shift the blame off of Rei. (Which, you know, we are.)

Let's look at how Shinji handled the possibility that Gendo did something bad.

His father told her to do this? he asks. Rei hesitates before slowly nodding her head. Yes, he taught her how. She answers slowly, and carefully chooses her words, trying to gauge Shinji's reaction.

So his father taught her how to use him as a weapon against Asuka, then? Rei stiffens. Shinji's voice is low and flat. You've seen Shinji annoyed before, but you're not sure you've seen him angry. Rei says that's not what she intended—

What was it that she intended to do, then? Shinji asks. Rei doesn't answer. Shinji raises his voice. If Rei had talked to him, he would have heard her out! She's his best friend. He doesn't care that she's a clone or an Angel. He's been doing what he can to protect her. Rei says quietly that he did protect her. Shinji shouts that she manipulated him into that position without his knowledge. She made him hurt Asuka, someone he cares about. Asuka breaks eye contact and rubs her shoulder.

Click to shrink...

Shinji gets angry at Rei, at the person who claimed "his father taught her how to use him as a weapon". He's not mad at Gendo for manipulating the two of them, he's mad at Rei for blaming Gendo. Arguably not even for blaming Gendo, just for saying Gendo told Rei how to do what she did.
Can Misato sell it better? Odds aren't great!

We probably need to discuss Gendo, but it needs to be more...surgical, more precise, more carefully planned. Not "everything bad Rei ever did is Gendo's fault and here's why".


I think the big problems we have, right this minute, are something like this:

• Rei is under attack. She's tried to justify her actions, to explain the logic behind them, but Asuka said she wishes Rei had tried to kill her instead, and Shinji flipped out at mildly implicating his father.
• Shinji feels betrayed because Rei "used him as a weapon against Asuka" and didn't trust him with the truth.
• Asuka still wants her fucking apology.

Focusing on why Rei did what she did might reinforce Rei's confidence in her own actions, but it will make Shinji feel more betrayed and Asuka still won't have her apology. Asuka's concern is valid, and while Shinji is wrong, his concerns are not easily dismissed.

Here's my first stab at addressing those concerns.

[X] Plan Apology & Perspective
-[X] Point out to Rei that Asuka said she doesn't care about Rei's reasons and wishes you had taken one of the other options. Despite your good intentions, you hurt Asuka, and should apologize for hurting her and Shinji, even though you were trying to help.
--[X] If Asuka reacts to an adequate apology with hostility, briefly remind her that Rei was, in fact, trying to help. She made the decisions she did because of bad data and bad guesses, not malice.
-[X] Ask Shinji whether he would trust his own heart above Gendo Ikari's direction. If your father told you to lie to Rei and Asuka, that telling them the truth would just hurt them, would you assume he was wrong, or would you lie?

It doesn't give Rei a lot of support, but I'm not sure how to do that without visibly and obviously taking her side, which I'm trying not to do. Rei did something wrong; she went down the road paved with good intentions, and I think we all know where that leads.

 

[Alcor]

Agreed that this is broadly a positive development provided we can stick the landing here - I feel like we've taken the worst venom out of Asuka here and I think Shinji sticking up for her in particular is a big deal for the trio going forward. Of course, in the immediate term it's not good for Rei's anxiety but honestly this was kind of a challenge she was always going to face.

Also agreed that while we could probably get Rei to apologize if we were dead set on it, I don't think it would at all be sincere right now - she still doesn't get the emotional component to all this - she's still viewing it as "I saved your life. Why should I apologize?" I think our best chance at making some progress there absent challenging her belief there's not much purpose to trying to understand others (which I maintain is probably too much for this and probably best as a solo sit-down with her) is to come up with an example where we put Rei as the "wronged" party despite the other party having "justifiable" reasons. If someone with a better memory than me can think of some we may have had in the past that'd be great but it might be an impossible ask - we have to navigate Rei's lack of value in her life ("I can be replaced.") and her own atypical value system where a lot of "obvious" cases would bounce off her as "Makes sense/That's the mission/It was an order.". I'm thinking some emotional episode involving Shinji would likely be the best but my memory is often a sieve.

In that sense, it may actually be easier to work with the other two on this - Rei may object to it because of the above, but if we try to convey that Rei has essentially been a victim of extreme emotional abuse from people who have the absolute power of life and death over her and that has warped many of the choices she's made and how she rationalizes/justifies them that might land better with them because they can both relate. Hell, Rei trying to deny it is also something they can relate to. Shinji's relationship with Gendo is all kinds of complicated and Asuka I think has the self-awareness that she has her issues (she basically admitted as much before realizing she tipped her hand) but tries to put up a front. Tell them while we're not in a competition over "who had it the worst" but that all of them, hell us too, should be able to understand that we've gone through shit that has fucked us up and as a result we don't always make the best decisions and that often we don't want to admit that it even was a fuck up. Worst case if we push on Rei to apologize, and sadly I can see it all too clearly, is getting a "Is that an order?" which I think will end this conversation in a disaster. We can gently push Rei on it but it has to mostly come from her - and we may not be able to get there in this conversation, but I think we've defused Asuka enough that that isn't fatal for the relationships.

I'm mostly in alignment with Working on It v3. I think giving a brief rundown of Rei's situation and just how close she came to being "retired" is helpful in framing the abusive framework she exists in and provides context to her actions even if the specific reason it came down wasn't because she hurt Asuka. If nothing else, it probably calms Shinji down (or redirects his anger more fully towards Gendo), he was aghast when he learned of the clone system. But I don't know if in the heat of the moment the two have put together that the reason for the retirements haven't always been "used the dummy system" or "oh took fatal damage in an angel battle" or "eva test gone wrong" but instead includes "Gendo/NERV not happy that she's not an absolutely compliant tool" (Asuka in particular, and why I have worded this without the use of the word "doll" that's too blunt - Asuka's not an idiot she can make that connection herself, she'd just be mad if we poked at it now I think) and she's been having to struggle with this since you got here, if not earlier.

If I had a quibble it'd probably be "We're victims of NERV." It's true, but I don't know how effectively it lands - it's still important to all three of them (Asuka derives her value from EVA, it provides Shinji his very complicated link to his father, and it has basically been Rei's life.) I'd probably generalize it more to victims of their histories/pasts - again highlight how all of them, even us, have suffered severe emotional trauma and abuse and they've all been struggling through it. Surely no one there is going to claim they've made no mistakes (well Asuka might try reflexively but I can't imagine she'd do so with serious heat.)

 

[BethofDeath]

To be honest, I'd be 100% in Rei's shoes right now with the "I saved your fucking life and this is how you repay me?!" if I didn't have the knowledge of the broader situation or several decades of actively studying others' explanations of how they felt in various moments, so I'm not the best person to try and explain to Rei the details of how others feel *without* making her feel like she's being attacked.

So, yes, starting off with "this is intended as attempted explanatory structure, not as another attack", before the "so yes, Rei, with that understanding, the kind of apology intended to express regret for the emotional consequences and not having been able to come up with a less painful solution" would probably be helpful.

It would need to be immediately followed up up telling Asuka to sit down and internalize those reasons, and then form an apology specifically for leaping to conclusions without context and for the physical assault, while also firmly stating that any apology for the rest of Asuka's behavior is to wait until it can be genuine. Because, yeah, Rei's good intentions still caused emotional grief she did not intend and was never allowed to learn would happen, until now. Asuka has reason to feel hurt, and that's valid; Asuka's response to that hurt, however, well, the redhead can see for herself why they aren't valid, if she lets her pride down enough.

I completely agree that we need to keep hammering home that Rei was denied critical, need-to-know, information amidst all the other child abuse she suffered, and that if she knew of other options that wouldn't have hurt Asuka or likely gotten herself killed, she would have taken them instead. And we need to talk to Rei alone about helping her seek non-Gendo methods and help her with her struggle to disentangle herself from the framework he taught her.

 

[Alcor]

My Asuka radar might be busted but I think a more condensed version of my longer post there is that I actually think Asuka's "Still waiting for that apology, by the way" at the end is actually her way of extending an olive branch of sorts. I think we have gotten through to her a bit and Shinji defending her helped too and if Rei actually gave a genuine apology... well they wouldn't be best friends but things would majorly cool down and we would move past this.

Problem is I just don't think Rei is at a point yet where she can give one genuinely. I think the most direct route to possibly getting there is if we have an example that is a bit of a role reversal where Rei was hurt emotionally even though the "bigger picture" (to her) made sense to give her a frame of reference she can better understand as to why the other two are bothered here. Because my memory sucks I can't think of a good one off hand or even be sure we've got one that resonates with her but if we did that would be the quickest path.

Otherwise, the more circuitous route is to work on Shinji and Asuka by continuing to provide context for just why Rei is having trouble understanding what to them is common sense - explain the abusive system she's in, how real and close the danger was, and relate it to the shared experiences that all four of us have with abuse and trauma - essentially a Found Family sort of angle amongst people who have suffered (with a common root in NERV/GEHIRN but I'm still skittish at attacking NERV directly because it's still a valuable cornerstone to the pilots right now and think it better left more generalized.) If in the discussion Rei has some kind of minor epiphany and offers an uncertain apology I think that'd be good, but on this path I think it's okay if she doesn't apologize here and now but it becomes more of a medium-term goal. If it works I think this may be more ideal. If it doesn't I think we're left in an uneasy spot where the tension remains high even if we avert the worst case scenario - basically Misato's increasingly average week.

I think leaning too hard on the actual apology and getting it out of Rei is missing the forest for the trees and may come off to her as everyone ganging up on her and she may shut down/revert to "Is that an order?" which to Asuka would be like slapping that olive branch away and would upset Shinji as well, leaving Rei extremely isolated. I don't know if that's a recoverable state - at least for Asuka/Rei. Shinji/Rei might be able to be salvaged but it'd be bad.

 

[Solark]

Nice development. I'd like to get off Rei's case a bit. It feels like we're about to punish her, or make her feel guilty, for following orders, i.e. for being a good soldier. That's probably the worst thing to do to our most disciplined pilot. It's the higher-ups' (Misato, Gendo) fault for not providing her with healthier options, and I pity the poor girl for having to navigate through several dozens of crooked ones. "Come clean" was not there. Too bad "come consult with Misato" wasn't either. Can we maybe inject the latter one into her paradigm?

[X] Plan Paradigm Shift
- [X] Blame Gendo for shitty orders, not Rei for following them.
- [X] Sympathize with both Rei and Asuka for having to deal with this crap. Must've been hard.
- [X] You're sorry for not noticing the problem and making the kids suffer through it on their own.
- [X] But if Asuka had come to you instead of plotting on her own, everything could've been much simpler. Asuka wasn't restricted by protocols after all.
- [X] Rei could've done it too. Even a hint, without revealing everything, would've been enough to get you to act and help.
- [X] Ask Rei if she understands why Shinji is upset. If she doesn't, make Shinji explain it once again. Ask her to tell Shinji how she feels about it after she understands.
- [X] Asuka has forfeited her right for apology the moment she hit Rei. They're even now. If she still wants her apology, she's apologizing for the violence first.

 

[PistachioCookies]

Gonna keep my attempt as broad as possible, in as neutral a manner to everyone as possible including Gendo, as I agree with the sentiment that this is not the right time to try and push propaganda against him and NERV. Though that also means the outcome of this approach could largely come down to dealer's choice. Depending on how the details end up getting filled in, it could end up coming off as more or less biased towards certain sides regardless.

[X] Broad Strokes
-[X] Explain to Rei that both Asuka and Shinji feel betrayed at Rei's prior lack of trust. They have indicated that they would have been inclined to keep her secret and Shinji at least would not have overly judged her for it, if she had told them. You can't say whether or not they would really have been to accomplish that, but you believe they deserved to be trusted to try. Rei need not apologize for trying to save anybody's life, only for not trusting that the others would have kept her secret in confidence and refrained from using it to hurt her.
-[X] Remind Asuka that the trust she expected would only have been deserved if she would have actually kept the secret in confidence and not hurt Rei with it.
-[X] Tell Shinji and Asuka the stakes for Rei failing her duties are higher than for them. Tell them as much as you feel comfortable about the difference between the punishments Gendo gave them, versus the one he handed down for Rei, which she has apparently been subjected to nearly a dozen times before.

 

[TNO]

This is not "were there other options", it's "were there other options given the context of Rei Ayanami", which is a substantially different thing. Asuka has not been killed 10 times, with some of those times being for "acting out". Asuka was not raised by Gendo Ikari and a woman who hates the concept of Asuka. And, to be a little frank, it's a bit much for Shinji to say this right after completely failing to protect her five seconds ago.

Click to shrink...

I agree with most of your points (also with the last one), but I do not think the "We all NERV victims" will be productive here. Too broad statement, and too many vague implications.
I would formulate this otherwise, and add some things, check my proposition if you like.

Most of it is throwing NERV in general and Gendo in specific under the bus.

Click to shrink...

Gendo is responsible for what Rei did (even if indirectly), no matter how do you want to slice it.
Rei has been indoctrinated so hard, that it would make any cult guru jealous.

And if we fail, we'll alienate Shinji and Rei (who still care about Gendo, despite everything) and convince Asuka that we're trying to shift the blame off of Rei. (Which, you know, we are.)

Click to shrink...

Rei already has doubts/regrets. Way before Misato said once that Gendo would care if she died, basically switched her from being hopeful/happy into full depression state.

Shinji gets angry at Rei, at the person who claimed "his father taught her how to use him as a weapon". He's not mad at Gendo for manipulating the two of them, he's mad at Rei for blaming Gendo.

Click to shrink...

Problem is that Shinji has it all backwards. Gendo did not teach/tell Rei to use Shinji against Asuka. Gendo taught Rei that manipulation is the only viable tool of defense. Because of Gendo parental model, Rei does not consider the fact that any other response is possible. Metaphorically, you do not consider using other things than your lungs (and other parts of the respiratory system) to breathe air.
It is why I wrote a hypothetical example how would Shinji be different, if only parental figure in his life was Misato.

Also agreed that while we could probably get Rei to apologize if we were dead set on it, I don't think it would at all be sincere right now - she still doesn't get the emotional component to all this - she's still viewing it as "I saved your life. Why should I apologize?"
(...)
Worst case if we push on Rei to apologize, and sadly I can see it all too clearly, is getting a "Is that an order?" which I think will end this conversation in a disaster.

Click to shrink...

To be honest, I'd be 100% in Rei's shoes right now with the "I saved your fucking life and this is how you repay me?!"

Click to shrink...

I may be biased as here, but I fully agree. I assume Rei train of thought is something like (paraphrased, of course):
* The first (and only?) act of supposed kindness towards me was a total bullshit just to get a genetic sample
* Then you breached the NERV security protocols to do your unauthorized research (for Rei's this could be as big slight as invading her privacy)
* When I firstly tried to convince you in a neutral way you accused me of "seducing" (people are forgetting this, and I assume Asuka did not mention this also), so I had to gaslight you, just to save your life.
* And now when you are alive, only because of me stopping you, you have the gall to accuse me of manipulation and demand apology. Are you kidding me?
* Anything between me and Shinji is not your fucking business. And now, just because of your stupidity, he is feeling betrayed by me.

My Asuka radar might be busted but I think a more condensed version of my longer post there is that I actually think Asuka's "Still waiting for that apology, by the way" at the end is actually her way of extending an olive branch of sorts.

Click to shrink...

Sure, from the certain perspective, the change to "I want an apology, by the way" from "apologize to me, you worthless bitch, or I beat your brains out" is progress.

I think leaning too hard on the actual apology and getting it out of Rei is missing the forest for the trees and may come off to her as everyone ganging up on her and she may shut down/revert to "Is that an order?"

Click to shrink...

Exactly. And Asuka is smart and perceptive, she will obviously notice this, and react accordingly (i.e., badly).

Also, Shinji probably is more emotionally hurt here than Asuka. I shall risk the statement that he has more negative emotions towards Rei than Asuka.
Asuka is obviously pissed at Rei for her gaslighting, and maybe on herself that she fell for this. But she had a negative opinion about Rei anyway.
Shinji is feeling totally betrayed, by somebody he obviously has some feelings for. Especially that she used things she had learned from Gendo, not the more empathic ways of she could learn from him and Asuka. He may have doubts if Rei's behavior towards him has not been a manipulation on Gendo's orders all along, just to keep him piloting.

Because of that (and the Yui Ikari can of worms), Rei and Shinji should have an additional private conversation later, without Asuka interfering.

 

[VX-145]

Valid points raised; I'll go through some of the more pertinent ones.

Most of it is throwing NERV in general and Gendo in specific under the bus. I get why you want to do that; it's hardly inaccurate to blame them, and if convincing our pilots that Gendo is untrustworthy would solve a few major long-term problems. But I have less than absolute faith in Misato's ability to convince our pilots that Gendo is untrustworthy, especially at a chaotic time like this. And if we fail, we'll alienate Shinji and Rei (who still care about Gendo, despite everything) and convince Asuka that we're trying to shift the blame off of Rei. (Which, you know, we are.)

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It can come across like that, but we can just point at the fact that Gendo did this entire thing as proof that he's untrustworthy. On the next point, involving Shinji, it seems to me a little more complex than "he's angry at Rei for saying Gendo made her do it"; he's angry at Rei for trusting his father over him as well. That said, the current incarnation suffers from what I'm going to call "VX is writing at close to 1am and has had a very stressful week" syndrome, along with the re-writes.

Focusing on why Rei did what she did might reinforce Rei's confidence in her own actions, but it will make Shinji feel more betrayed and Asuka still won't have her apology. Asuka's concern is valid, and while Shinji is wrong, his concerns are not easily dismissed.

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Later in the plan there's a "hey, Rei, you should actually apologise for this, and also act differently in the future" section; I'm also trying to get across to Rei why she should, in a way she'll be more likely to understand, while also trying to cool off the other two a bit more. It's also me trying to get across the idea that Rei acted out of a genuine, and founded, fear that one or both of them would be killed, rather than out of blind obedience (or, perhaps, that that blind obedience is out of fear and not loyalty).

If I had a quibble it'd probably be "We're victims of NERV."

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That one is a little vestigial for the reasons above; I'm not sure whether to expand or cut it, leading to the current unsatisfactory outcome of it just sort of... being there. It works well as a capstone to one thread of the argument, but not the whole thing. I'll open the floor on that one - cut or expand?

If people want to add or take things off from that plan, go ahead.

 

[Mechasaurian]

- [X] Asuka has forfeited her right for apology the moment she hit Rei. They're even now. If she still wants her apology, she's apologizing for the violence first.

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I'm at a loss as to what the best course of action is in a general sense, but I'm on board with this point in particular.

 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also agreed that while we could probably get Rei to apologize if we were dead set on it, I don't think it would at all be sincere right now - she still doesn't get the emotional component to all this - she's still viewing it as "I saved your life. Why should I apologize?"

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That's a big part of why my suggestion included an attempt at explaining why she should apologize.

I think Asuka made it pretty clear that she still wants an apology, and it's hard to argue that she doesn't deserve one. Even if Rei didn't intend to gaslight Asuka, she still made her doubt her own sanity, and that would be reason enough for an apology. While I do think Shinji and Asuka should understand the pressures Rei was under, I don't think any of that negates the need for Rei to apologize—and I know for certain that Asuka won't think it does.

If Asuka repeatedly demands an apology and Misato explains why Rei doesn't need to apologize, I don't think Asuka would be receptive to whatever Misato's explanation is. She'd just see it as Misato siding with Rei again. And I don't think she'd be wrong.

I'm mostly in alignment with Working on It v3. I think giving a brief rundown of Rei's situation and just how close she came to being "retired" is helpful in framing the abusive framework she exists in and provides context to her actions even if the specific reason it came down wasn't because she hurt Asuka.

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I don't think that would help. Remember that thing Asuka said?

Rei says in a small voice that she had to keep her secret. Asuka says she was just hiding it for selfish reasons. She didn't care who she had to hurt to do it, and she still doesn't! Still waiting for that apology, by the way. She really isn't human after all, is she? Any other bullshit she's hiding or plans to manipulate all of you she'd like to share?

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This fits into the same framework. If Rei acted as she did to preserve herself, she cares more about her own safety than Asuka's mental health. That's not evil or inhuman, but Asuka has a right to be pissed and expect an apology for that.
Also, if Rei was evil and inhuman, she would absolutely throw Asuka under the bus to preserve herself, and we still need to convince Asuka that Rei isn't evil or inhuman.

My Asuka radar might be busted but I think a more condensed version of my longer post there is that I actually think Asuka's "Still waiting for that apology, by the way" at the end is actually her way of extending an olive branch of sorts. I think we have gotten through to her a bit and Shinji defending her helped too and if Rei actually gave a genuine apology... well they wouldn't be best friends but things would majorly cool down and we would move past this.

Problem is I just don't think Rei is at a point yet where she can give one genuinely. I think the most direct route to possibly getting there is if we have an example that is a bit of a role reversal where Rei was hurt emotionally even though the "bigger picture" (to her) made sense to give her a frame of reference she can better understand as to why the other two are bothered here.

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I don't disagree, exactly. But I also don't think we can focus much on helping Rei get to that point, because we have to balance the desires and expectations of all three kids, and a proper explanation takes time. That's why I wanted to cram a quick "I am trying to give you information I know you do not have" before asking Rei to apologize—I'm trying to balance "Asuka wants her fucking apology" against "Rei doesn't understand why she needs to apologize," rather than focusing on one at the expense of the other.

 

[PistachioCookies]

I'm trying to balance "Asuka wants her fucking apology" against "Rei doesn't understand why she needs to apologize," rather than focusing on one at the expense of the other.

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See, here's the thing.

Rei doesn't feel the need to apologize, because if you assume that Asuka and Shinji couldn't be trusted to keep their mouths shut (whether because they were malicious or simply too inept to do it) then keeping it all a secret from them would have, in fact, been the correct thing to do.

Because in that case, them finding out would mean one or more of the three inevitably ending up in deep shit - likely the bomb-collar or forced-replacement kind - when they slipped up or tattled about it.

The only reason Misato - that is, we the players - are even telling Rei to come clean to Asuka and Shinji at all, is because we know that they can in fact be trusted.

Which is mostly due to out-of-universe knowledge.

I actually have my doubts that canon!Misato would have been so cavalier and trusting in this situation, especially given that Shinji is the commander's son and was just given a face-to-face personal debriefing as "punishment" with him, that we don't know the details about, potentially putting his loyalties into question. Asuka herself has been having sessions with Gendo's right-hand man Fuyutsuki and Misato has just been told by Ritsuko that she's possibly being groomed as her successor.

We only know that they're clean and that they're decent people who would help her and probably haven't yet been inducted into the whole conspiracy (or else if they have offscreen without us knowing, could likely be "deprogrammed" without much fuss) because we know they were the heroes of the series in canon and protagonists just below Misato in importance in regards to this quest.

Rei had none of those guarantees. She would have had nothing but faith in their friendship to go on. And the whole sticking point is that she she decided she didn't have faith in them. Everything else she did came from that.

That's insulting to Shinji and Asuka, who would've been ready to help her. But plenty reasonable from the perspective of someone who hasn't seen an alternate timeline wherein Shinji was the one pounding on the command center with his Eva and tried to tear his dad a new asshole open for what happened to Toji.

 

[Alcor]

I may be biased as here, but I fully agree. I assume Rei train of thought is something like (paraphrased, of course):

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I know I said "[Rei] is mad" in an earlier thought, but I actually think a more accurate take would have been "Rei is frustrated." I know I keep harping on it, but I think the major hang up here is Rei's belief that people can't understand one another - which is basically one of the major themes of Evangelion writ-large (Hedgehog's dilemma, Instrumentality, etc.) Because she holds this belief she doesn't see the value or purpose in trying to explain herself because she doesn't think it's possible for her to be understood by others nor does she really think she can understand them.

So it's more frustration because she laid out her reasoning and they're still upset. Rei tends to answer these kind of questions in a clinical mathematician way where she describes the technical facts but nothing else. Whether it's because she has trouble processing her own emotions and can't put them into words or she thinks it's futile, she generally omits them as superfluous... and that's what is causing the problem here. Most people would think/do the opposite and focus on the emotional reasons ("With what you figured out, my orders would have required you be killed as a security threat but you're my friend and I didn't want that!") rather than the technical stuff ("Well, I had a rundown of options. Killing you as orders dictate would be tricky. As for my non-lethal options, after assessing them, I figured my best shot at maximizing the chances of you staying alive was to undermine your sense of reality.") Both are true and neither are mutually exclusive but they give off entirely different vibes. But Rei doesn't even see the point in the former and so Misato has to drag her there like pulling teeth which itself makes it come off as dubious to Shinji and Asuka.

Sure, from the certain perspective, the change to "I want an apology, by the way" from "apologize to me, you worthless bitch, or I beat your brains out" is progress.

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No, I mean... I feel like her hostility as a whole dropped by that point. She was more "typical Asuka" there. Being abrasive and on an offensive footing is basically her default mode/defense mechanism. She's not going to drop that because that's not her. That's just her standard attitude she has adopted to protect herself. She's asking for the apology still, and she does want it, but I feel like the heat from when this all started has massively dropped from when she was physically assaulting her and wanted her dead.

I think Asuka made it pretty clear that she still wants an apology, and it's hard to argue that she doesn't deserve one. Even if Rei didn't intend to gaslight Asuka, she still made her doubt her own sanity, and that would be reason enough for an apology. While I do think Shinji and Asuka should understand the pressures Rei was under, I don't think any of that negates the need for Rei to apologize—and I know for certain that Asuka won't think it does.

If Asuka repeatedly demands an apology and Misato explains why Rei doesn't need to apologize, I don't think Asuka would be receptive to whatever Misato's explanation is. She'd just see it as Misato siding with Rei again. And I don't think she'd be wrong.

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I've been saying Asuka deserves an apology all along, this wouldn't be Misato explaining why Rei doesn't need to apologize. It would be explaining why Rei is acting in a way that seems so inhuman to the two of them. Asuka is taking the "easy" road of blaming it on her being an Angel and literally (part) inhuman but Shinji doesn't care about that as he's repeatedly said. His dismay is that he's seeing Rei as lacking in empathy to the hurt she caused Asuka when she keeps being offered the off-ramp of "apologize."

I'm saying that what Misato can do is explain Rei's behavior as being the result of her being a victim of abuse. It's not that she's inherently unempathetic - it's that she has been raised by people who never taught it to her/sneered at it, would kill her because she's not 100% compliant to their wishes and orders, and just generally had a horrific upbringing. The purpose being to explain why Rei is having problems seeing things the way they think a normal person should (and no it's not because she's part Angel.)

I'm trying to balance "Asuka wants her fucking apology" against "Rei doesn't understand why she needs to apologize," rather than focusing on one at the expense of the other.

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So am I. But as I said above, I think Asuka has cooled down enough that despite what she's saying she doesn't actually need her apology right this second if she can understand how fucked up Rei's situation has made her to processing things emotionally. I'm sure she'll still want it, but it would almost become more of a group project to get Rei to get more in touch with her emotions and those of others so she can. Like I said, it'd be more of a Found Family angle where Misato and the pilots realizes they're all quite similar in how they've suffered and come together. What Asuka wants is a real apology. What I'm hoping to do is explain to Asuka and Shinji that because of how emotionally repressed Rei is as a result of her abuse that simply isn't something she's capable of right this moment - but the next step would obviously be to help Rei (and the other pilots with their traumas) through it so that she can later.

 

[VX-145]

Right, I've actually had something approaching a decent amount of sleep, so I'll go over and revise this plan again.

[X] Working on it v4
- [X] The consequences Rei mentioned are not hypothetical - Ritsuko was seconds away from killing her. Not even because she spilled the secret, but because she dared to rebel after being forced to hurt others through the dummy plug. Rei has died multiple times after daring to act contrary to Gendo and Ritsuko's wishes, and that has definitely had an impact on how she acts even now.
- [X] Yet, despite this, not only is she sharing the secret now, but she was willing to kill Gendo and Ritsuko for their role in activating the dummy plug.
- [X] Yes, it's still pretty bad of Rei to manipulate Asuka and Shinji in that way, and that it was the least bad option - and at the time, to Rei, it was - doesn't make it good. If necessary, explain to Rei here that if she considers them her friends, she should apologise for the hurt done, even if it was for a reason she thought was good. Similarly, Asuka should apologise for assaulting Rei.
- [X] In future, though it's not likely to happen again, Rei can second-guess her instincts and turn to you, or one of the other pilots if you're not around, or Kaji failing both of those. So can the other pilots, if they're ever in a similar situation.
- [X] And on this point - trust is reciprocal. Asuka's breach of privacy shouldn't just be ignored, either.

This started as a streamline but I ended up re-writing most of this. Whoops. Still not 100% happy with it for reasons I can't put my finger on, but I have no more time to spend on this right now.

 

[MilitantBird]

Right, I've actually had something approaching a decent amount of sleep, so I'll go over and revise this plan again.

[X] Working on it v4
- [X] The consequences Rei mentioned are not hypothetical - Ritsuko was seconds away from killing her. Not even because she spilled the secret, but because she dared to rebel after being forced to hurt others through the dummy plug. Rei has died multiple times after daring to act contrary to Gendo and Ritsuko's wishes, and that has definitely had an impact on how she acts even now.
- [X] Yet, despite this, not only is she sharing the secret now, but she was willing to kill Gendo and Ritsuko for their role in activating the dummy plug.
- [X] Yes, it's still pretty bad of Rei to manipulate Asuka and Shinji in that way, and that it was the least bad option - and at the time, to Rei, it was - doesn't make it good. If necessary, explain to Rei here that if she considers them her friends, she should apologise for the hurt done, even if it was for a reason she thought was good. Similarly, Asuka should apologise for assaulting Rei.
- [X] In future, though it's not likely to happen again, Rei can second-guess her instincts and turn to you, or one of the other pilots if you're not around, or Kaji failing both of those. So can the other pilots, if they're ever in a similar situation.
- [X] And on this point - trust is reciprocal. Asuka's breach of privacy shouldn't just be ignored, either.

This started as a streamline but I ended up re-writing most of this. Whoops. Still not 100% happy with it for reasons I can't put my finger on, but I have no more time to spend on this right now.

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I think telling Shinji that Rei was about to kill his Dad might cause additional problems.