Rei Ayanami Raising Project

[BethofDeath]

[X] Plan Sledgehammer
-[X] Do what you should've done with Ritsuko: Step in between them, facing Asuka.
-[X] Firstly, emphasize that Rei made a choice, against everything she was ever taught and *intentionally NOT taught*, to save Asuka's life, instead of immediately reporting her accusations to Gendo. Because Rei, like everyone else here, doesn't want Asuka to be taken to a black site and killed for knowing far, far too much. Because she cares about you, as a person.
-[X] Secondly, correct Asuka: NERV -- more specifically, its leadership and likely many above them -- turns out to have another purpose after the Angels are defeated. Which Asuka knowing would, again, get her, and Misato, and probably even Shinji, shot. And they forced a little girl into existence to accomplish it, then murdered her. Over. And. Over. Again. Against her will. Every time she showed herself to be a PERSON and *not* an object.
-[X] Thirdly, that would be the *least* of Gendo's crimes. But fine. Asuka wants to know what's so special about Lilith? Tell Asuka and Shinji what you've learned in Terminal Dogma about Gendo's plan and goal. Add that, in your estimation, there is no way that his plan is even the main one, given how much infrastructure and expense NERV represents.
-[D:] Hope like hell Ryoji got all the surveillance bugs last time he was here.

Still leaving out the part about Rei's relation to Yui Ikari. It's not relevant and Rei's had enough Shinji-rejection trauma already.

I'm hoping we can pull Asuka around to understanding why we told her we needed her help, back at the hospital, and that Rei is *not* the villain... just the Apocalypse Maiden who very much doesn't want to be.

Yes, telling the other two teenagers about this is a horrible idea and there's no way they'll be able to hide it or the damage to their Sync Ratios. We're well past the Absolute Borderline at this point, and there is no going back. Fun times!

 

[MilitantBird]

I think people usually end up swaying to one of two extremes when it comes to Shinji. Some people see a scrawny, unloved, weak teenage boy who's been constantly abused by the adults in his life; plagued with a myriad of insecurities, self-hatred and a crippling inability to stand up for himself, relate to one or more of his character deficits and instantly think "That's literally me, damnit."

Other people reject what they see in Shinji, repulsed by his flaws and weakness. They hate him because on a subconscious level, they recognize part of what they fear or hate most in themselves.

 

[16 characters]

Asuka is completely dehumanizing rei, the girl shinji is in love with, his best friend; she is baying for her death and he has said nothing about it, no calls for treating her humanely, not even a meek defense of her character, nothing. He is just fence sitting and swaying whit the air currents of the conversation.

Click to shrink...

Sure its true that asuka is employing some very demeaning language and acting like a heinous jerk at the moment*. It's also true that Shinji hasn't done much yet but where's the unreasonable part of that?
That is with the context that said person in love with has probably also just recently shocked him with regards to who they even are plus being likely fairly overwhelmed with feeling like he made the situation worse.


Plus the baying for her death part just happened at the end of this chapter. For however hostile asuka was prior it wasn't at this level earlier.

Usually keeping ones mouth shut when overwhelmed by new information strikes me as fairly wise.

What stands out to me is that he's not JUST in a situation processing suddenly that Rei is a clone and an angel and Asuka is mad, but also probably proccessing or perciving at minimum that he probably caused psychological harm to asuka and at maximum that he may have put her in danger by going along with things the way he did.

It's a lot to take in.

If the framing was that askua just decided to start antagonzing rei out of the blue without all this heavy baggage I indeed think his reactions would be pretty different.

I admit I would be really quite surprised if he didn't even try to say anything during the next update, but things have escalated..quickly y'know? To the point I'm sure I wouldn't have processed it all in his position yet.


Like what would a response that pleased you have looked like anyway?
Am I just parsing this whole situation differently than you are?

 

[Eisenhelm]

Other people reject what they see in Shinji, repulsed by his flaws and weakness. They hate him because on a subconscious level, they recognize part of what they hate in themselves.

Click to shrink...

Not quite, I understand why he acted that way in the second previous update, but here Asuka is completely dehumanizing the person shinji values most to the point of wanting to kill her, he should react in some manner, and I don't mean get into a fist fight, just even verbally would be aceptable, but no, not even that.

@16 characters

Basically what I already said, shinji tried to intervene when things got phisical despite his shock, that is fine, but now Asuka is doing something that I would personally consider worse than what rei did to Asuka (keeping secrets is not as bad in my opinion as treating a loved one as an object, hell phisical assault is not as bad as beige dehumanized by my metric), he should respond verbally in her defense at the very least, instead of being insulted by rei's actions on Asuka behalf. Doing that makes him seem spineless,

 

[Mechasaurian]

-[X] Firstly, emphasize that Rei made a choice, against everything she was ever taught and *intentionally NOT taught*, to save Asuka's life, instead of immediately reporting her accusations to Gendo. Because Rei doesn't want Asuka to be taken to a black site and killed for knowing far, far too much. Because she cares about you, as a person.

Click to shrink...

I've thought very hard about the merits of arguing this - that Rei was acting to protect Asuka. But then we'd be putting words in Rei's mouth. I think such an argument really has to come from Rei herself.

 

[16 characters]

@Eisenhelm Freezing is a reaction though? Hell, not even that unexpected a reaction from where I'm sitting. I really sincerely doubt that he's got some sort of thought process going on along the lines of ''oh I should be absolutely doing nothing because everything is fine'' passing through his skull.

I'd be expecting more of a ''ohgodwhatdoidowhats'sgoingonwhat' kind of mental stream to be present, though I could certainly be misreading things.

Maybe shinji really doesn't care but I doubt that very much?

I've certainly had times in my life where something horrible has suddenly happened out of the blue to the point I felt rendered speechless.

What this comes across to me is that you seem to think of this as like some moral failing somehow rather than like..y'know extreme doses of fear and overwhelm maybe with some confusion tossed in.
Plus until the very end their with the slapping and the 'lets kill this bitch attiude'' this wouldn't have looked too unlike one of Ausuka's ususal tantruming, in which the best option DOES usually tend to be giving her time.

Honestly, I might feel judgemental too if he did have a long calm think about seeing this and concluding that the most optimal thing would be to stand their limply....thats not whats occured though AFAIK?
Heck again I'd be surprised if he stayed in this state but I'm not surprised or morally offened that he's currently in it.

Maybe we just have different standards regarding all this?

 

[Mechasaurian]

[ ] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing (old)
-[ ] Reprimand Asuka for the slap. Repeat the declaration that there is to be no violence between the pilots/wards.
-[ ] No, Asuka, we cannot "just kill this bitch already." "This bitch" is an actual person who has been instrumental to your survival on a number of occasions. Also - if she really was some mindless puppet, you shouldn't bother demanding an apology from her, and if you actually want an apology, calling for her death is not the way to go. Just saying.
-[ ] Alright, I think I'm starting to understand the situation. The simplest way to "protect NERV's secrets" would be to simply report Asuka to internal security. Whereupon she'd have been dragged off to a black site and executed. So you settled on gaslighting. Is this accurate? Crossed out because, as I said above, I think this needs to come from Rei herself.
-[ ] "Actually, I'm curious too. Why does NERV keep you around, Rei? I've seen Terminal Dogma, but I don't know where you fit into the big plan."

 

[Eisenhelm]

Freezing is a reaction though? Hell, not even that unexpected a reaction from where I'm sitting.

Click to shrink...

Yet he still has enough fight in him to confront Rei about what she did to Asuka; he either freezes completely or he defends rei, but siding whit the person who minutes ago assaulted him against the person he loves most is 100% a character failure. If he really was paralized out of uncertainty then there is that but he did act, if he cares about her he would try do what he can to defend rei but Asuka beat any opposition to her action out of him to the point he took her side, that makes him look spineless, thus "shinj, grow a spine"

@Mechasaurian
[] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing
If rei told the very irate Asuka that she actually did the thing that landed her in hot water for Asuka's own good, Asuka would do something we all regret, It's better if we do it. And it can't go unsaid at all since it's the cornerstone to explain rei's actions, without that understanding there will never be reconciliation.

 

[thatguy99998]

[X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing

I'd actually put down a punishment, but this is a bit too hot of a situation for that to work out.
Instead lets try and cool it down first.

 

[Mechasaurian]

If rei told the very irate Asuka that she actually did the thing that landed her in hot water for Asuka's own good, Asuka would do something we all regret, It's better if we do it. And it can't go unsaid at all since it's the cornerstone to explain rei's actions, without that understanding there will never be reconciliation.

Click to shrink...

You know what, fine, you've convinced me.

[X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing
-[X] Reprimand Asuka for the slap. Repeat the declaration that there is to be no violence between the pilots/wards.
-[X] No, Asuka, we cannot "just kill this bitch already." "This bitch" is an actual person who has been instrumental to your survival on a number of occasions. Also - if she really was some mindless puppet, you shouldn't bother demanding an apology from her, and if you actually want an apology, calling for her death is not the way to go. Just saying.
-[X] "Alright, I think I'm starting to understand the situation. The simplest way to "protect NERV's secrets" would be to simply report Asuka to internal security. Whereupon she'd have been dragged off to a black site and executed. So you settled on gaslighting. Is this accurate?"
-[X] "Actually, I'm curious too. Why does NERV keep you around, Rei? I've seen Terminal Dogma, but I don't know where you fit into the big plan."

EDIT: @thatguy99998 just letting you know, since you're the only one who's voted for my plan (so far).

And that'll be the last modification I make to the plan, because if people do start voting for this I don't want to hijack their votes for something they didn't intend.

 

[Comrade Future]

[X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing
-[X] Reprimand Asuka for the slap. Repeat the declaration that there is to be no violence between the pilots/wards.
-[X] No, Asuka, we cannot "just kill this bitch already." "This bitch" is an actual person who has been instrumental to your survival on a number of occasions. Also - if she really was some mindless puppet, you shouldn't bother demanding an apology from her, and if you actually want an apology, calling for her death is not the way to go. Just saying.
-[X] "Alright, I think I'm starting to understand the situation. The simplest way to "protect NERV's secrets" would be to simply report Asuka to internal security. Whereupon she'd have been dragged off to a black site and executed. So you settled on gaslighting. Is this accurate?"
-[X] "Actually, I'm curious too. Why does NERV keep you around, Rei? I've seen Terminal Dogma, but I don't know where you fit into the big plan."

 

[TNO]

Asuka says she's not moving until Rei admits what she did and apologizes for being a lying piece of shit.

Click to shrink...

And this is exactly why you and Rei should be separated.

Asuka is more or less telling the truth. Her voice is flat and clinical.

Click to shrink...

Ok, so Rei has admitted gaslighting. But knowing Rei the things in the "more or less" part can be very important.

See? Asuka says, Rei owes her a big apology. So, hand it over.

Click to shrink...

No. She does not. But saying this aloud would create a total pandemonium.

Considerations of security or privacy are irrelevant, especially when the subject isn't even a person, it's an object pretending to be a person.

Click to shrink...

I think than people in command know this better than you Asuka. Also, your dehumanizing Rei is not helping.

Second of all, why the hell is NERV keeping the presence of an Angel secret from her?

Click to shrink...

Because it is above your paygrade Asuka?

"Just following orders" really isn't going to cut it.

Click to shrink...

How about "You would have killed both of us, revealing what you know"?

5) shinji, grow a fucking spine.

Click to shrink...

Indeed. Big time.

Trying to avoid further angering an already wrathful individual who's better trained in human scale combat than oneself just makes sense to me?

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• If this is only not to be physically beaten, this alone should be a reason enough to show how much Asuka is out of the line here, and why her demands are wrong.
• I am not an expert on Japanese culture (so I may be wrong), but I assume that in Japan a form of apology is as much important as the apology itself. And Asuka demand apology in a very humiliating position (even in the Western culture groveling on your knees is humiliating, and Asuka knows this). This alone should create some resistance in him.
• Doing this in such manner will only ensure Asuka that she is right in her violent approach, and definitely will not help in defusing the situation. He has been living with her for weeks, he has to know this, besides we all know how it worked with Germans in the past.
• And it is all without talking about the matter of Asuka attacking/dehumanizing Rei (without even a token effort/gesture like telling Asuka to allow explaining this by Rei herself), the person he is supposed to care about.

I'll just note that Shinji is the one who actually managed to crack Rei's facade a little.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I noticed this also. In the hindsight, it is good that we decided to omit the whole "Yui Ikari" stuff.

[ X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing

[X] No Kicking Employer
-[X] Reprimand Asuka for the slap. Repeat the declaration that there is to be no violence between the pilots/wards.
-[X] No, Asuka, we cannot "just kill this bitch already." "This bitch" is an actual person who has been instrumental to your survival on a number of occasions. Also - if she really was some mindless puppet, you shouldn't bother demanding an apology from her, and if you actually want an apology, calling for her death is not the way to go. Just saying.
-[X] Ask Rei what were her other protocol options were. Rei likely went with the least harmful one.
-[X] Ask Asuka what would she do in Rei's shoes, having a secret she was ordered to protect discovered.

Edit: Changed the vote, it is more concise and avoids "I am (for now) a crucial part in Gendo Ikari's omnicidal scenario" problem. We have enough on our plate already.

 

[FourthWall]

I'd like to see the people giving Shinji shit here handle a situation where your sorta-girlfriend admitted to gaslighting your co-worker, you just learned said pseudo-girlfriend isn't fully human, your co-worker's attacked your psuedo-girlfriend, and manhandling women as a man is socially frowned upon

 

[VX-145]

[X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing

I do still want to bring up the whole "oh by the way this "bitch" also got mad enough about Gendo's actions to go and try to kill him" thing but I think that can wait.

RE: Shinji, it's a similar problem to the one we're having: he has two people he wants to protect who are at each other's throats. It makes it a bit difficult to act, plus he's trying to de-escalate in the way he knows - apologise and back down. Unfortunately, that's not reliable.

 

[Undeadmuffin01]

[] Plan balls to the wall
-[] Pull out your gun and put it on Asuka's head
-[] Remind her that she's in the military, not kindergarten
-[] That sometimes it mean that stuff is above your paygrade
-[] And that punishment for disobedience is sometime death, be for looking where you shouldn't go or killing people you shouldn't

Ok, enough miss nice gal, time to remind Asuka that you are officially her superior officer and that she's in charge of Jack shit

 

[Solark]

I'd like to step back and ask what Rei could have done differently back then?

First, Asuka accused her of being an Angel, which she actually isn't, right? Human DNA is 95% similar to chimpanzee's, but that doesn't make us less human. So Rei might not feel any remorse because she sincerely believes she's not an Angel (as she should) and Asuka was spouting nonsense. Blood type, so what? Misato's probably "alcohol", who cares?

Second, yes, protocol and stuff. Without explaining everything, her only option was denial... well, aside from more lethal options she hinted about, which makes me think she may actually be authorized to kill to protect this secret. Making Asuka doubt herself might've been a way of protecting her from NERV and worse outcomes.

Also withholding the Yukari part is already biting us in the ass. As a result, there's nothing human about Rei in Asuka's eyes. It's not too late to come clear though.

[X] Plan "equal opportunity employer"
- [X] Ask Rei what were her other protocol options were. Rei likely went with the least harmful one.
- [X] Ask Asuka what would she do in Rei's shoes, having a secret she was ordered to protect discovered.
- [X] A body doesn't make a person. DNA, the chimp reference, racism, transhumanism.
- [X] Disclose the last bit of truth about Yukari. Own up to your mistake of not doing it from the start.
- [X] NERV is an equal opportunity employer, without regard to race, age, gender, blood type.
- [X] Rei has been protecting humanity before Asuka, and her kill count is impressive. Face the facts.

 

[Eisenhelm]

[x] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing

 

[16 characters]

[X] Plan "equal opportunity employer"

 

[TNO]

I'd like to step back and ask what Rei could have done differently back then?

Click to shrink...

Some good points, except one

Also withholding the Yukari part is already biting us in the ass. As a result, there's nothing human about Rei in Asuka's eyes. It's not too late to come clear though.

Click to shrink...

I do not think that changing from "Rei is a clone of an unspecified human female" to "Rei is a clone of Yui Ikari" would affect Asuka's perception of Rei (at least in a positive way).
But would of course affect Shinji's, so this is the matter we should discuss with him later.

 

[Undeadmuffin01]

[X] Plan Womano a Womano
-[X] Tell Shinji to bring Rei to her room, you and Asuka have to talk
-[X] Tell Asuka that NERV could have genuinely killed her for snooping around like that, have she learned nothing from the spy incident ?
-[X] Remind her that Rei have killed Angels before Asuka even arrived, she already proved her loyalty
-[X] Reveal that your own father was killed by an angel but you had to learn to not let that take over your judgment
-[X] Lastly, if humanity really want to stop the angels, Asuka and Rei will need to work together. Rei did the first part by telling the truth, now it's Asuka's turn

-[/j] if she refuse, misato will use her military power to force them both to wear a "friendships shirt"

Ok, here for my actually serious plan, give Shinji the chance to talk to Rei without a half-german ball of anger around while dealing with Asuka herself

EDIT: I added some personal info about Misato and how her dad died so we could mellow Asuka

 

[Mechasaurian]

Also withholding the Yukari part is already biting us in the ass. As a result, there's nothing human about Rei in Asuka's eyes. It's not too late to come clear though.

Click to shrink...

If "she has human DNA actually" is what convinces Asuka that Rei is worthy of personhood, I will be very disappointed.

 

[Solark]

If "she has human DNA actually" is what convinces Asuka that Rei is worthy of personhood, I will be very disappointed.

Click to shrink...

As a standalone thing— yes, that'd make the two of us. As a part of the plan— it'd be a nice addition, increasing attack surface to reach Asuka. And there are separate reasons too, that I mentioned in the previous vote.

 

[Undeadmuffin01]

As a standalone thing— yes, that'd make the two of us. As a part of the plan— it'd be a nice addition, increasing attack surface to reach Asuka. And there are separate reasons too, that I mentioned in the previous vote.

Click to shrink...

Meh, I still stand that it should be a Rei-Shinji thing, no need to add Asuka into this, especially as she's mad enough that she could try to weaponize that against Rei (and that Shinji is probably too spineless to stand up to Asuka if she press on him)

 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure its true that asuka is employing some very demeaning language and acting like a heinous jerk at the moment*. It's also true that Shinji hasn't done much yet but where's the unreasonable part of that?

Click to shrink...

Everyone's having a rough day in the Katsuragi household. I don't blame Shinji for sitting back and letting Asuka and Rei settle things; it's not a good response, but it's better than it could be.

I've thought very hard about the merits of arguing this - that Rei was acting to protect Asuka. But then we'd be putting words in Rei's mouth. I think such an argument really has to come from Rei herself.

Click to shrink...

I agree. It's unfortunate that Rei has not demonstrated any interest in defending herself.

[ ] Plan balls to the wall
-[] Pull out your gun and put it on Asuka's head
-[] Remind her that she's in the military, not kindergarten
-[] That sometimes it mean that stuff is above your paygrade
-[] And that punishment for disobedience is sometime death, be for looking where you shouldn't go or killing people you shouldn't

Ok, enough miss nice gal, time to remind Asuka that you are officially her superior officer and that she's in charge of Jack shit

Click to shrink...

I think that argumentum ad pistolum will work even worse on Asuka than it did on Ritsuko. Asuka is still young enough to think she could win a gunfight with her fists.


Aside from that, plans proposed so far, analyzed by me:

Spoiler

• Sledgehammer
  • Starting with physical intervention to prevent further slaps is good. That needs to be a red line.
  • Don't like talking for Rei. Not even if Rei won't talk for Rei. Rei really needs to talk on her own.
  • NERV's second purpose seems wholly irrelevant. It might change Asuka's opinion of NERV, but it won't change her opinion of Rei, and that's what matters. NERV doesn't live one apartment down from Asuka.
  • Throwing Gendo under the bus is cathartic, but it still won't help Asuka's opinion of Rei, and might damage Rei's opinion of Misato.
  • If Gendo has us bugged...the good news is that the whole team's going to NERV Jail together this time.
• No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing
  • Starting with a reprimand to prevent further slaps is good. That needs to be a red line.
  • Reminding Asuka that Rei's on our side is also good. It addresses the problem at hand.
  • Feels like a smidge of talking for Rei, but it's trying to prompt Rei to speak for herself. I guess I'd just word this slightly differently.
  • Bold plan, Cotton.
• "equal opportunity employer"
  • Doesn't address the slap
  • Tries to start a conversation between Rei and Asuka instead of just telling them things
  • Not sure how much the DNA thing is gonna help. Rei is still part-Angel, and that's enough to justify Asuka's dislike for her.
  • Not sure whether "NERV is an equal opportunity employer" is actually true, but it's definitely not gonna change Asuka's opinion of Rei. Again, it's just gonna change her opinion of NERV policy.
  • Pointing out that Rei has consistently acted for humanity's sake is not a bad idea. Not sure that narrative meshes with the most recent fight, though.
• Womano a Womano
  • "Mano a mano" means "hand to hand," not "man to man"
  • Having a one-on-one argument with Asuka and tabling everything else is a terrible idea. Rei did do some stuff wrong, she should apologize, also we shouldn't speak for her.
  • Forcing Rei and Asuka to wear a friendship shirt is worth considering

I'll vote for something that takes some of the bits from a couple plans I like.

[X] No Kicking Employer
-[X] Reprimand Asuka for the slap. Repeat the declaration that there is to be no violence between the pilots/wards.
-[X] No, Asuka, we cannot "just kill this bitch already." "This bitch" is an actual person who has been instrumental to your survival on a number of occasions. Also - if she really was some mindless puppet, you shouldn't bother demanding an apology from her, and if you actually want an apology, calling for her death is not the way to go. Just saying.
- [X] Ask Rei what were her other protocol options were. Rei likely went with the least harmful one.
- [X] Ask Asuka what would she do in Rei's shoes, having a secret she was ordered to protect discovered.
-[D:] Hope like hell Ryoji got all the surveillance bugs last time he was here.

Hopefully this will facilitate a more productive dialogue.

 

[<o>U<o>]

[X] No Kicking Employer