I... am unsure if thats the correct move. But i cant argue with the nessecity of it being said.
I leave it to you Mechasaurian. I voted for your plan, you have my trust.
Rei Ayanami Raising Project
- Thread starter Sutekh
- Start date
I leave it to you Mechasaurian. I voted for your plan, you have my trust.
Mechasaurian
Big Bossu
- Location
- Lost among fields of history
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Me too, honestly.
On the one hand, it kind of does need to be said. On the other, if it comes from Misato instead of Rei, that could be construed as Misato "taking Rei's side" and giving her a defense no one asked for.
I committed myself to no stealth-changing of the plan, so I'm leaving it as it is. I'll note that there are alternative plans (like No Kicking Employer) that avoid putting words in Rei's mouth to such a degree.
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[X] No Kicking Employer
I'm actually good with No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing... up until the last part. I don't think this is at all the time to query Rei about NERV/Gendo's ultimate plan. Her reactions are muted but I don't think she's at all in a good headspace to deal with that and all the potential consequences of disclosing that and even if she were we have not at all defused the situation with Asuka yet.
My take on this remains mostly unchanged from before:
Asuka: She's justifiably angry about being gaslighted. I stand by saying she deserves an apology for this. Yes, Asuka's own actions in her solo investigation are something that would warrant her apologizing to Rei but Misato does not know of this nor do the others AFAIK. Her escalating this to something physical was obviously wrong and we were right to separate them and break that up but that didn't somehow make the gaslighting correct retroactively.
As for her "we should kill Rei" stuff - again, obviously out of line - but looking at this from her perspective it's not entirely unfathomable how she's arrived here. Her thought that NERV is for killing Angels to protect humanity is... not outlandish to hold for someone who basically isn't on the very short list of: Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Ritsuko, Rei, Kaji, and Misato. Basically everyone below "Terminal Dogma" clearance/espionage could justifiably hold that view. So we absolutely have to defuse this from Asuka but dismissing it out of hand is the wrong move, IMO - we have to treat Asuka's objection here with seriousness and not flippantly.
To that end, there's a few lines of thought we could address this with. Technically, we can point out to Asuka that actually, no, she wasn't doing her job. Her job is to pilot the EVA and defeat the targets that the Operations Commander tells her to. NERV is a (para)military organization with chains of command and different branches with different responsibilities and trying to fly solo like that is a good way to find yourself court-martialed or worse. However, I probably wouldn't go with that one - at least not as a primary argument. I think it'd likely be better to focus on "well, if I've learned anything the past weeks/months it's that there's clearly a lot more to NERV than what it seems on the surface" hinting at our own investigation but not necessarily disclosing it all. If we want to play a bit risky we could offer to let her in on some of what we've been doing on that front after we settle this to give her a sense of purpose/belonging/comradery but we'd have to be careful she doesn't go off on her own like this and get herself caught snooping.
One thing I'd be cautious of is our specific wording here. Asuka is irate and despite being genius-level is also, well, a teenager. I think she'd be more than happy to pounce on minor details of wording if it lets her "be right" and let her avoid grappling with the larger argument we're making. Something like, "Our main priority is protecting humanity and Rei - regardless of her origins, has been helping us do just that as an EVA pilot from the start. She's helped you and Shinji out in tight spots during battle too, if she was trying to get humanity killed like the other Angels why would she do that?" I think she'd probably go internet-debater "Aha!" and latch onto "protecting humanity" and hyperfocus on Rei/The Dummy Plug attacking her and act like that undermines the larger point.
Rei: Going through a lot, and in many ways I think she's beginning to think her worst fears of this reveal are manifesting with Shinji's reaction before - this could be dangerous. I think a large part of the problem here is that Rei thinks differently than most and is not prone to elaborating. I think the justifiable thought in-thread that Rei chose gaslighting Asuka because it was the least worst option for Asuka is probably correct! So from her perspective she doesn't owe Asuka an apology, if anything, she did Asuka a huge favor at considerable risk to herself, and at odds with all her behavioral programming from Gendo/NERV and is now being attacked for it. Asuka, who she's always had trouble understanding and has annoyed her with her lack of respect for protocol is now being (to Rei) ungrateful when Rei made a sincere effort to break protocol (which is huge for her) to try and protect her as best she could. She's mad. She's also not explaining all of this and it's going to be hard to get her to without carefully leading her there - especially because it's her belief that individuals can't understand one another at a fundamental level so "why bother?"
Unpacking that is probably beyond the scope of this conversation and that's unfortunate because it's going to be hard to get Rei where we need her without addressing that but here we are. If we can get Rei there super, I think it would be helpful. Moving to the apology, this is what I was saying before - Rei thinks she doesn't owe Asuka an apology because, again, from her perspective she did Asuka a favor. I think what we need to get through to her is that yes, she did, but it's also true that helping someone in one respect can hurt them in another. She did what she did to protect Asuka from greater harm, right? That can be true alongside the fact that being lied to and made to question your own sanity is also very hurtful. That specifically is what we think she owes Asuka an apology for - not the greater intent of wanting to protect Asuka - we're glad she wanted to do that and maybe she felt she had no good options and this was the least bad but she can still apologize that in trying to help Asuka she also hurt her a bit. We 100% DO NOT BRING THIS UP NOW but if we ever have Rei alone and this comes up we could point out Asuka's traumatic past with her mom and how the idea of her reality being questioned (her mom mistaking the doll for her) is very specifically a trigger for her if she's still having trouble getting this. I feel I'm having trouble articulating all this but hopefully enough of it came through, there's probably a more artful way to get there.
Shinji: Wants to be anywhere but here. If we can resolve this dispute, I think his side of things mostly works out. His alarm appears to be at Rei's seeming lack of empathy in gaslighting Asuka. If we can drag out that Rei was likely trying to select the least hurtful option for Asuka I think he'll mostly be reassured - but I think he also very much wants to see an apology. If we do not resolve this satisfactorily I think we need to very quickly pull him aside and basically tell him that we think Rei's gaslighting was her trying to find something that wasn't "report Asuka for a security breach that would result in her getting killed" and to be there for Rei because she needs him.
And if it turns out I/we're wrong about Rei's motives in gaslighting Asuka well then uh-oh disregard almost all of that.
I'm actually good with No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing... up until the last part. I don't think this is at all the time to query Rei about NERV/Gendo's ultimate plan. Her reactions are muted but I don't think she's at all in a good headspace to deal with that and all the potential consequences of disclosing that and even if she were we have not at all defused the situation with Asuka yet.
My take on this remains mostly unchanged from before:
Asuka: She's justifiably angry about being gaslighted. I stand by saying she deserves an apology for this. Yes, Asuka's own actions in her solo investigation are something that would warrant her apologizing to Rei but Misato does not know of this nor do the others AFAIK. Her escalating this to something physical was obviously wrong and we were right to separate them and break that up but that didn't somehow make the gaslighting correct retroactively.
As for her "we should kill Rei" stuff - again, obviously out of line - but looking at this from her perspective it's not entirely unfathomable how she's arrived here. Her thought that NERV is for killing Angels to protect humanity is... not outlandish to hold for someone who basically isn't on the very short list of: Gendo, Fuyutsuki, Ritsuko, Rei, Kaji, and Misato. Basically everyone below "Terminal Dogma" clearance/espionage could justifiably hold that view. So we absolutely have to defuse this from Asuka but dismissing it out of hand is the wrong move, IMO - we have to treat Asuka's objection here with seriousness and not flippantly.
To that end, there's a few lines of thought we could address this with. Technically, we can point out to Asuka that actually, no, she wasn't doing her job. Her job is to pilot the EVA and defeat the targets that the Operations Commander tells her to. NERV is a (para)military organization with chains of command and different branches with different responsibilities and trying to fly solo like that is a good way to find yourself court-martialed or worse. However, I probably wouldn't go with that one - at least not as a primary argument. I think it'd likely be better to focus on "well, if I've learned anything the past weeks/months it's that there's clearly a lot more to NERV than what it seems on the surface" hinting at our own investigation but not necessarily disclosing it all. If we want to play a bit risky we could offer to let her in on some of what we've been doing on that front after we settle this to give her a sense of purpose/belonging/comradery but we'd have to be careful she doesn't go off on her own like this and get herself caught snooping.
One thing I'd be cautious of is our specific wording here. Asuka is irate and despite being genius-level is also, well, a teenager. I think she'd be more than happy to pounce on minor details of wording if it lets her "be right" and let her avoid grappling with the larger argument we're making. Something like, "Our main priority is protecting humanity and Rei - regardless of her origins, has been helping us do just that as an EVA pilot from the start. She's helped you and Shinji out in tight spots during battle too, if she was trying to get humanity killed like the other Angels why would she do that?" I think she'd probably go internet-debater "Aha!" and latch onto "protecting humanity" and hyperfocus on Rei/The Dummy Plug attacking her and act like that undermines the larger point.
Rei: Going through a lot, and in many ways I think she's beginning to think her worst fears of this reveal are manifesting with Shinji's reaction before - this could be dangerous. I think a large part of the problem here is that Rei thinks differently than most and is not prone to elaborating. I think the justifiable thought in-thread that Rei chose gaslighting Asuka because it was the least worst option for Asuka is probably correct! So from her perspective she doesn't owe Asuka an apology, if anything, she did Asuka a huge favor at considerable risk to herself, and at odds with all her behavioral programming from Gendo/NERV and is now being attacked for it. Asuka, who she's always had trouble understanding and has annoyed her with her lack of respect for protocol is now being (to Rei) ungrateful when Rei made a sincere effort to break protocol (which is huge for her) to try and protect her as best she could. She's mad. She's also not explaining all of this and it's going to be hard to get her to without carefully leading her there - especially because it's her belief that individuals can't understand one another at a fundamental level so "why bother?"
Unpacking that is probably beyond the scope of this conversation and that's unfortunate because it's going to be hard to get Rei where we need her without addressing that but here we are. If we can get Rei there super, I think it would be helpful. Moving to the apology, this is what I was saying before - Rei thinks she doesn't owe Asuka an apology because, again, from her perspective she did Asuka a favor. I think what we need to get through to her is that yes, she did, but it's also true that helping someone in one respect can hurt them in another. She did what she did to protect Asuka from greater harm, right? That can be true alongside the fact that being lied to and made to question your own sanity is also very hurtful. That specifically is what we think she owes Asuka an apology for - not the greater intent of wanting to protect Asuka - we're glad she wanted to do that and maybe she felt she had no good options and this was the least bad but she can still apologize that in trying to help Asuka she also hurt her a bit. We 100% DO NOT BRING THIS UP NOW but if we ever have Rei alone and this comes up we could point out Asuka's traumatic past with her mom and how the idea of her reality being questioned (her mom mistaking the doll for her) is very specifically a trigger for her if she's still having trouble getting this. I feel I'm having trouble articulating all this but hopefully enough of it came through, there's probably a more artful way to get there.
Shinji: Wants to be anywhere but here. If we can resolve this dispute, I think his side of things mostly works out. His alarm appears to be at Rei's seeming lack of empathy in gaslighting Asuka. If we can drag out that Rei was likely trying to select the least hurtful option for Asuka I think he'll mostly be reassured - but I think he also very much wants to see an apology. If we do not resolve this satisfactorily I think we need to very quickly pull him aside and basically tell him that we think Rei's gaslighting was her trying to find something that wasn't "report Asuka for a security breach that would result in her getting killed" and to be there for Rei because she needs him.
And if it turns out I/we're wrong about Rei's motives in gaslighting Asuka well then uh-oh disregard almost all of that.
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- Location
- Laniakea
Agree with this. Not the time to interrogate Rei, at all. Also feel like Misato immediately presuming Rei was trying to help Asuka before actually confirming comes off as blatantly taking Rei's side, which is not going to help when Asuka was already expecting Misato to be so preferential to Rei she got surprised when Misato acknowledged Asuka had a right to be upset.... which is kinda sad in a way.
[X] No Kicking Employer
[X] No Kicking Employer
- Location
- Irradiated Wasteland
There is possibility that this was one of the reasons, but not the only one.And if it turns out I/we're wrong about Rei's motives in gaslighting Asuka well then uh-oh disregard almost all of that.
Considering how Rei's resolve was weakened after Shinji's reaction, the other reason could be strictly personal. Rei was simply afraid that Asuka's revelation will cause Shinji/Misato hating her, and she tried to prevent this (basically protecting herself from being alienated from the few people who actually care about her).
Which could be the more important factor for her to contain Asuka?
Of course all of this is a pure speculation, and we do not know one way or another, until Rei confirms anything.
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[X] No Kicking, No Slapping, No Killing
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If I had expected my plan to get this much support I would not have named it No Kicking Employer.
- Location
- Irradiated Wasteland
There are redundant spaces in the beginning of the two last bullets.
16 characters
Sick and tired of being Sick and Tired
- Location
- Alta California
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] No Kicking Employer