Nothingness XIII: Become Whole Again
[X] Remind Ritsuko that Rei's hostility to NERV at this very moment comes from the fact that NERV was actively trying to kill her and her friends. Rei has already backed off from killing Ritsuko on the basis that her friends would die if she had, so it's hard to imagine her wanting to kill them herself through Third Impact. Hell, she stopped when Shinji asked her to and when you asked her to. That's evidence enough that this works.
-[X] You're not going to take parenting criticism from one of the people responsible for this mess. You're going to move on to more productive things instead.
-[X] Take the conversation back to Rei, since surviving this is going to need her co-operation one way or another. Ask Rei if she had a plan for what to do next, in the full expectation that she didn't.
-[X] Ask if there's any way we could fool Gendo with science regarding her injuries. That, or patch them over and have Rei pretend not to be injured until she heals - this would need an excuse to not have the Commander not be able to examine them closely for that time.
-[X] We can also say that Rei's actions in the last battle led to more of her memories transferring over, to cover any suspicious lack of gaps in her knowledge. This covers the other pilots not noticing, that and the stress of the last battle.

Okay, you're done taking this crap from Ritsuko. You know that you could have done better in some places, but you're really trying your hardest here, and nobody is making it easy on you. Anyone would struggle in your position, even if they actually had child-rearing skills or access to therapy for your deeply screwed-up wards.

You repeat that Rei's hostility is entirely based on the fact that there is an imminent threat on her life. No, Ritsuko, you're not finished yet. You don't care that technically, Rei can't die, she's just being moved, or whatever. The fact of the matter is that Rei perceives being reset to "factory defaults" as synonymous with death, and so acted accordingly. Moreover, she's been talked off the ledge twice, and you doubt she'd want to kill her close friends with a potential extinction event. It's obvious that she listens to you or Ritsuko would be dead already. So yes, you have confidence that you can fix this.

Also, you're pretty done hearing about how poor a parent you are from someone that only has cats waiting for her at home. Ritsuko reacts like you've slapped her. You strongly doubt she, or anyone else at NERV, could do a substantially better job under the constraints you're working under. But you're not going to debate this any further. It's irrelevant and unproductive. It's more important to figure out a solution to the current problem.

And that solution isn't going to be wiping Rei's memories or murdering her. Full stop. Ritsuko can give up trying to convince you otherwise, because it's not going to happen. So, she'd better work with you here. Ritsuko snorts and asks what you propose. You suggest asking Rei for ideas. Ritsuko wonders if you're joking. You're going to ask the source of the danger that NERV is trying to contain how to contain her? You shrug. You're going to need her to cooperate one way or another. Ritsuko says not if you go with her plan. You brightly reply that you won't.

You start walking back towards Rei's room. Ritsuko sighs in annoyance and trudges after you, saying that this is a waste of time. Rei's right where you left her, sitting on the bare frame of the bed, looking at nothing in particular. Fear briefly fills her face when you make eye contact. She knows that you know. She opens her mouth to ask a question, but she can only get out a few soft, inarticulate sounds.

You ask Rei what she was planning to do after um, guaranteeing her safety. You mean after gunning Ritsuko down with a stolen firearm, Ritsuko says darkly. Yes, that. Rei's eyes widen in panic. She says she didn't have a plan. She just wanted to keep the others with her. Please believe her.

What about the getting rid of people in her way? Ritsuko asks, Getting justice? Vengeance? You can't expect her to believe she was planning to pretend like nothing happened after shooting Ritsuko to death. Rei says she doesn't know. She was just going to do what she needed to survive. She doesn't know. You admonish Ritsuko. This isn't an interrogation. You're just curious. That's all. Rei relaxes a little. You're not one hundred percent sure you believe her, but Ritsuko grilling her trying to get her to confess to starting Third Impact is not helpful.

You're not surprised Rei didn't think this through. It does make her dangerous, because she could use her…Angel powers…? on impulse. Which makes her unpredictable. But also, it at least puts you more at ease that Rei isn't acting with nefarious intent. You have a lot of questions to ask her, though. Rei draws her body tighter, sagging in place. For now, you're focusing on getting her out of this situation alive and with everyone in this room intact. You ask both of them if either of them know a way to fool Gendo about Rei's injuries.

Ritsuko says she's still not sold on cooperating with this plan. You say you can always hand Rei the gun back and see how well that goes for Ritsuko. Ritsuko pales. Still, Ritsuko sees no reason why she couldn't just tell the Commander about this stupid ruse you're trying to set up the second she's out of danger. You give Ritsuko a hard look. Does she really want to get you killed that badly? And besides, the point still stands about the other Children being adversely affected by her approach. She can point fingers all she wants at you, but considering the realities of the situation with the other pilots, the cold pragmatic truth is that her plan sucks.

Ritsuko grits her teeth and doesn't say anything. You know you've won.

The way Ritsuko sees it, there aren't many options for hiding Rei's lack of transfer, which is why this is also a stupid plan. But more or less, she could keep Rei here until the wounds close up on their own. Rei's anatomy should heal them. The risks are that this would take an abnormally long time for what she's supposed to be doing, which risks the Commander coming down here to see what's going on. Also, Rei still scars like humans do.

Another option would be to try to graft part of the Dummies to her body, but that has its complications. Rei could still scar, and every Dummy is a little different anatomically due to imperfections in the cloning process. There's a small but not-insignificant chance of rejection. Also, she'd have to amputate parts of Rei's body. With limited tools, and without anesthetic.

A third option would be to try to graft parts of Lilith's body to Rei, but Ritsuko outright rejects that. First off, there's zero way you could convince her to let Rei come into contact with Lilith's body. Second, there's no practical way to harvest Lilith's flesh with just the three of you.

There's a fourth option, but you wouldn't like it.

You ask to hear it anyway.

Rei answers for Ritsuko. Dr. Akagi could back up all her memories and simply perform the operation. But dump the full backup instead of selected parts. You would have to trust Dr. Akagi not to betray you. And Rei's not sure how much continuity between persons there would be. Ritsuko says it's still one soul being rehoused, so she certainly thinks Douze would be the same person, but she's never cared much for ontology.

None of these options are very appealing. Simply waiting for Rei to heal would be the least likely to do her bodily harm, but it's incredibly logistically risky. Cutting Rei apart would be quicker and not risk discovery, but it could hurt her or kill her. And moving Rei would be the safest, but you'd have to put all your faith in Ritsuko to not stab you in the back.

What will you do?

[ ] Let Rei heal naturally and hope for the best.
[ ] Replace the damaged parts with the spare parts and hope for the best.
[ ] Move to Rei Twelve and trust Ritsuko.
 
I... like option 4? If it works, that is, and if Rei is ok with it.

It's closest to Ritsuko's orders, and that hopefully means she is less likely to have buyer's remorse and squeal to Gendo down the line. It gets Rei fully fixed up, with no physical or timing issues to arouse suspicion. And I'm not that concerned about the continuity-of-self issue, as it doesn't sound too much worse than going to sleep or getting blackout drunk.

And I think we can trust Ritsuko. After all, we have a good-ish argument as to why wiping Rei is a terrible idea. And also a gun.
 
Does Rei have a preference? This is her body/life/continuity/ontology we're talking about.

Though, currently, I'm biased towards moving to Rei 12 with a full Rei backup. It would be, frankly, suicidal for Rits to betray us at this time. Even with the fact that if we just go and shoot her, we probably get shot my Gendo later down the line, we've kind of established that we're a bit Like That when it comes to messing with our kids.
 
Does Rei have a preference? This is her body/life/continuity/ontology we're talking about.

Though, currently, I'm biased towards moving to Rei 12 with a full Rei backup. It would be, frankly, suicidal for Rits to betray us at this time. Even with the fact that if we just go and shoot her, we probably get shot my Gendo later down the line, we've kind of established that we're a bit Like That when it comes to messing with our kids.
I don't think it would be suicidal of her.

She can, if she chooses, stab Misato in the back and do the selective deleting of Rei's memories, then turn around and say:

"Whatcha gonna do about it? Rei 12's survival is dependent on mine. You going to let her rot away for the sake of your revenge?"

And if Misato does shoot Rits for it, she probably gets thrown into cell for the rest of her life or until Third Impact, whichever comes first, and the Children will be forced to do without her.

It would quite the fait accompli.
 
Anyone would struggle in your position, even if they actually had child-rearing skills or access to therapy for your deeply screwed-up wards.
It is a bit surprising to see Misato openly admits her problems in this department
Also, you're pretty done hearing about how poor a parent you are from someone that only has cats waiting for her at home.
This was harsh. Ritsuko should be happy that Misato has not knowledge to add something "and has no problems with being treated as a fleshlight by the biggest asshole around"
Yes, that. Rei's eyes widen in panic. She says she didn't have a plan.
(...)
You're not surprised Rei didn't think this through. It does make her dangerous, because she could use her…Angel powers…? on impulse. Which makes her unpredictable.
Supposedly unemotional girl acting purely on emotions. It would call for a celebration in better circumstances.
She knows that you know. She opens her mouth to ask a question, but she can only get out a few soft, inarticulate sounds.
Sorry Rei, but few more people will be up to speed very soon. This is nonnegotiable.
Ritsuko grits her teeth and doesn't say anything. You know you've won.
Yay! Success!
First off, there's zero way you could convince her to let Rei come into contact with Lilith's body. Second, there's no practical way to harvest Lilith's flesh with just the three of you.
Technically, LCL is part of the Lilith's body. What about concentrated LCL shots/infusions directly into Rei's flesh?
There's a fourth option, but you wouldn't like it.
(...)
Rei answers for Ritsuko. Dr. Akagi could back up all her memories and simply perform the operation.
You are right Ritsuko. We do not like it.
Ritsuko says it's still one soul being rehoused, so she certainly thinks Douze would be the same person, but she's never cared much for ontology.
Yeah, we already had this discussion a few pages before here.
Does Rei have a preference? This is her body/life/continuity/ontology we're talking about.
Exactly. It is her body and soul.

[X] Ask Rei about her preferences
-[X] Ask Ritsuko about the idea of LCL shots
 
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I don't think it would be suicidal of her.

She can, if she chooses, stab Misato in the back and do the selective deleting of Rei's memories, then turn around and say:

"Whatcha gonna do about it? Rei 12's survival is dependent on mine. You going to let her rot away for the sake of your revenge?"
It would be as suicidal as we let it be. The point of a threat/promise is that you are committed to carry it out, which changes the risk/reward calculations for other people.

And, as we just told Rits, it's not like we wouldn't be doomed anyway, at that point. Might as well shoot her for the satisfaction.

Hell, if Rei dies, Gendo might actually be motivated to try and save the world, as his instrumentality/waifu plan is busted. We don't know this in-character, but it could be humanity's best shot.
 
I don't think it would be suicidal of her.

She can, if she chooses, stab Misato in the back and do the selective deleting of Rei's memories, then turn around and say:

"Whatcha gonna do about it? Rei 12's survival is dependent on mine. You going to let her rot away for the sake of your revenge?"

And if Misato does shoot Rits for it, she probably gets thrown into cell for the rest of her life or until Third Impact, whichever comes first, and the Children will be forced to do without her.

It would quite the fait accompli.


In such a situation The Rei That's Ours has effectively been killed and replaced with a changeling. I, personally, wouldn't euthanize someone's kid but then go "Aha but you need me to maintain the clone of the kid I grew in a tube!" On top of emotional people doing emotional things, they could just go "That's not my kid, my kid was the one you just killed" then promptly shoot you. At least, that's my take on the situation.
You do have a point that it is basically game over in such a situation, I just think that Rits has a bit more self preservation than that on top of previously (if not now) being friends with Misato.
 
In such a situation The Rei That's Ours has effectively been killed and replaced with a changeling. I, personally, wouldn't euthanize someone's kid but then go "Aha but you need me to maintain the clone of the kid I grew in a tube!" On top of emotional people doing emotional things, they could just go "That's not my kid, my kid was the one you just killed" then promptly shoot you. At least, that's my take on the situation.
You do have a point that it is basically game over in such a situation, I just think that Rits has a bit more self preservation than that on top of previously (if not now) being friends with Misato.
It would be as suicidal as we let it be. The point of a threat/promise is that you are committed to carry it out, which changes the risk/reward calculations for other people.

And, as we just told Rits, it's not like we wouldn't be doomed anyway, at that point. Might as well shoot her for the satisfaction.

Hell, if Rei dies, Gendo might actually be motivated to try and save the world, as his instrumentality/waifu plan is busted. We don't know this in-character, but it could be humanity's best shot.


I don't think the thread would be so heartless as to write off Rei 12. The currently-hypothetical Rei 12 is basically Rei 11 before Misato met her, after all.

I really don't think we, the thread, would be willing to effectively abandon Shinji and Asuka.

If Ritsuko forced the choice onto Misato and us, would we really be willing to effectively do a murder-suicide? Kill Ritsuko, then get Misato imprisoned or executed and Shinji+Asuka alone without a parental figure in the world? Would we really carry out the threat? I don't think so.
 
[X] Replace the damaged parts with the spare parts and hope for the best.

I mean it's risky, but not so much as first or third options.
 
As much as I do not like it @Mechasaurian is more or less right here.
If we agree for the resouling idea, almost everything depends on Ritsuko here.
Because as much as Misato may hate if Rei 12 is not real Rei, she would not kill the innocent girl, just to satisfy her revenge.
Of course, there is the other side of the picture.
It would happen exactly what Misato said about pilot's morale. Shinji would react as in canon (no matter if we chose the series, or Rebuilds), Hikari similarly, but less extreme, Asuka is a wildcard here.
And Misato took some time to push this through Ritsuko's animosity and hate towards Rei.
So, Ritsuko does not have much to gain with betraying us.
 
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[X] Move to Rei Twelve and trust Ritsuko

I'm voting. I'd still like to know what Rei thinks and prefers, but I think this is probably the best option. Otherwise we're hoping that Gendo doesn't realize that one of the objects of his obsessions has had parts replaced / a big scar. I genuinely don't think Rits is gonna betray us, and also believe that as long as the backup is complete - which it should - that it's still the same Rei.
 
Also I forgot to mention this.
Rei answers for Ritsuko. Dr. Akagi could back up all her memories and simply perform the operation. But dump the full backup instead of selected parts.
The complete transfer was not the default procedure?
They had cherry-picked parts of her personality/soul before and then complained that the result was unstable?
Seriously?
Are you kidding me Rits?
Ritsuko is a scientist here. She did not know that liberal copy/paste of parts from the spaghetti code full of hacks and kludges will result in a disaster?
And why it should be different with souls (things much more complicated)?
 
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I really would rather ask what Rei would prefer. Our neck might be on the line, but it's her whole ass existence.
 
Also I forgot to mention this.

The complete transfer was not the default procedure?
They had cherry-picked parts of her personality/soul before and then complained that the result was unstable?
Seriously?
Are you kidding me Rits?
Ritsuko is a scientist here. She did not know that liberal copy/paste of parts from the spaghetti code full of hacks and kludges will result in a disaster?
And why it should be different with souls (things much more complicated)?
The charitable version is Ritz selectively booting "clean" parts of Rei's brain, since her justification for blanking this Rei was the previous Ree having a bad habit of going terminally bugfuck. The uncharitable version is Ritz doesn't give a fuck :V

It's probably both, plus an extension of the general mood in Eva TV that NERV is fucking around with things they don't understand (if you wanna get meta).
 
Love how done Misato was with this bullshit in the update. Probably ultimately unhelpful, but at least cathartic... though reminding Ritsuko that we could just give Rei back the gun and let her deal with the problem usefully focussed the good scientist's mind.

As to options:

[ ] Let Rei heal naturally and hope for the best.

The most risky in terms of being found out, but the least damaging to Rei.

[ ] Replace the damaged parts with the spare parts and hope for the best.

Risky in both "damage to Rei" and "Gendo finding out" senses. I also don't necessarily trust Rits to put her heart and soul into this operation.

[ ] Move to Rei Twelve and trust Ritsuko.

I'll be honest, when I saw this my reaction was "hahahahaha no."

I really do not trust Ritsuko to not fuck us over here and present us with a fait accompli. Moreover, I don't trust the technology to work - this is a procedure that's never been done before, in an already cutting-edge field of science. Finally, I actually kinda see this as a betrayal of Rei; we told her this wasn't going to be a thing that happens, so it shouldn't be a thing that happens.

@Sutekh: How far are we allowed to write-in with these? Is this the strict "choose one", are we allowed to ask Rei, or are we allowed to suggest our own plans?


In the absence of write-ins, I'm personally going with:

[X] Let Rei heal naturally and hope for the best.

These options are being presented by Ritsuko, who wants to do the last one, so she's going to play up the risks of the other two. Rei isn't in a mental position to dispute them, and they are risks... but risks I think we can mitigate. Of the two remaining - since I'm not voting for the third one - it comes down to not really wanting to put the kid through unanaesthetised surgery conducted by someone who keeps advocating for killing her.

With write-ins, I'd add something like:

[] Ask Rei which she prefers, and which she thinks is the safest for her.
and
-[] Spend some time coming up with a plan to ensure the Commander doesn't find out. Distract him with other emergencies around NERV, play up that the equipment is unreliable as far as possible, and come up with a cover story for if he does find Rei's injuries. If he does come down, how long can Rei pretend to go uninjured, and how well can we disguise her injuries?

I was also going to suggest just hopping her up on as many painkillers as we could, covering up her injuries and pretending that the process went slightly wrong and it's taking some time for Rei's mind to settle... but if we don't have enough to put her under for an amputation we probably don't have enough for this to work.
 
[X] Let Rei heal naturally and hope for the best.

I know that this is risky but I think that's for the best. After we grilled Ritsuko and openly sided with Rei, she have no reason to side with us and if when she betray us and doctor Rei's memory in the transfer, we have no way to do anything about it.
It's back at square one.

But, by keeping Rei down here to heal, Ritsuko is at risk of Gendo finding out so she have much more an incentive of playing ball with us, bamboozling him and keeping Rei alive. Because if it work, she save her own skin too.
At least from my point of view.
 
...This is a tough one. I guess I'm leaning towards letting Rei just heal on her own after reading the discussion so far but I keep imagining the worst case scenario for all the options and they're all, well, bad.
 
[] Ask Rei which she prefers, and which she thinks is the safest for her.
and
-[] Spend some time coming up with a plan to ensure the Commander doesn't find out. Distract him with other emergencies around NERV, play up that the equipment is unreliable as far as possible, and come up with a cover story for if he does find Rei's injuries. If he does come down, how long can Rei pretend to go uninjured, and how well can we disguise her injuries?
I likeit but the subvote seems like an action to bote for after whatever operation Rei agrees to go forward.

Could we vote for this write-in? Or at least the top part of it? @Sutekh
 
Does Rei have any current scarring that would/should go missing if she transferred to Rei Twelve?

Just on top of Gendo being suspicious if he notices new scars on her, Asuka seeing a lack of scars will do wonders for her 'Rei is an enemy agent!' crusade after she wakes up. So, basically all these options seem likely to screw us over in one way or another.

With that being the case, I'm personally on team Let Rei Decide. Support her decision a sbest we can, but this is her life and her soul; she deserves to have some input here.

...
Okay actually, crazy thought that just occured to me this second: can we rope Kaji in on this? I'm not entirely sure how - abusing his connections to keep Gendo distracted, staging a kidnapping, I'unno - but we have a secret agent man right there, it might be worth making use of him.
 
Honestly, I feel like we have to leave tricking Gendo almost entirely up to Ritsuko, whether we like it or not, as she's the only one with the knowledge of how all this stuff so any ideas we have as Misato basically have to be run by her to make sure they'll plausible but... I wonder if she could sell Gendo on the process taking longer because of complications from her extremely high sync rate (technically not even a lie!) and explain the presence of a scar as a purposeful deception to keep the other pilots and us from asking as many questions by retaining the appearance of the previous injury rather than having it apparently miraculously heal completely.
 
[X] Ask Rei about her preferences
-[X] Ask Ritsuko about the idea of LCL shots
 
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