- Pronouns
- She/Her
Rei Ayanami Raising Project
- Thread starter Sutekh
- Start date
[X] PistachioCookies
Let's be real: If this doesn't work out with both parties staying alive, humanities' chances of survival are about the same (nonexistent) with or without Misato?
Let's be real: If this doesn't work out with both parties staying alive, humanities' chances of survival are about the same (nonexistent) with or without Misato?
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah yes, I'm sure the giant robot was pacified by Unit-00's affection for Shinji. Completely separate from Rei. Clearly.
Anyways, you missed the most important question. What would Rei need to say to convince you that she wants to kill Ritsuko? What evidence are you looking for? Do you wholly reject the idea that someone's motives can be derived from their actions, or is there something Rei could do that would convince you she wants to kill someone even though she's only said she wants to "punish" her and "get justice" for people she killed, with a gun? If so, what?
If that evidence could exist, why did you ignore my specific question about it? And if no evidence could change your mind, why are we having this discussion?
For me, "Rei specifically said she wanted to get justice for people killed by Ritsuko" combined with other evidence like the Rei gestalt's more transparent intentions and Rei's finger being on the trigger (also Sutekh drawing attention to Rei being ready to shoot Ritsuko) seems like a pretty solid argument. About the best we're going to get without specifically asking Rei what she specifically wants to do to Ritsuko, which seems like a pretty goddamn terrible plan, but any less terrible version of that question is going to lead to an answer about as ambiguous as "get justice for Ritsuko's murders".
Which I don't think is very ambiguous, but I admit there's some interpretation involved. It's technically possible that Rei plans to use the gun to intimidate Ritsuko into confessing to her murders and turning herself into the police. I just think that's less likely than Rei wanting to kill Ritsuko.
Solark
sun-chaser
That's the power of friendship for ya. And maybe some mech on mech action.
It's funny how Ritsuko states she wants to kill Rei and we make Misato tell her that's not true, but Rei never sais she wants to kill Rits and you're convinced she does. Answering the question, if Rei was as upfront about her intentions as Ritsuko, I'd accept that. What I can infer from her actions so far is no different from what she declared: there's a number of ways to punish and get justice without killing. Her being ready to shoot now may have nothing to do with her original intentions and is the result of Misato handling the situation poorly, giving Ritsuko room to show her most charming side.
I think Rei might be looking for contrition, an apology. You know, making Ritsuko admit her "sisters" were more than just tools. That'd do them some justice. As for punishment, shooting her in the knee might be enough. I admit killing is one of the options, it's just I probably have more faith in Rei than you.
Can Rei put Ritsuko in the tank and clone her? That'd also work as a punishment.
1) No, it was already mentioned to only work for Rei.
2) An apology would probably work, but your stated opinions are ...unlikely to get one in my opinion?
- Location
- Irradiated Wasteland
You write "accidentally" in quotes, then act surprised when people interpret this as "pretend to be an accident".
Seriously?
Rei can slip because of "outside factors" as well when she sees Misato trying to bluff them, or because she has Line of Sight to Ritsuko when the good doctor is actively goading her...
You can pull out of thin air many things when you want to consider all "what-ifs" with low probability.
Nothing is 100% fool-proof and risk-free here, you can only evaluate risk/reward ratio, and act accordingly.
To be fair, we do not know if the same Rei personality was dominant after Shinji tackled the Eva-00, and before.
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- Location
- United States
As I said, it isn't rocket science and it isn't something that I thought needed to be clarified.
Don't put words in my mouth, and don't even try to blame your reading compressive problems on me, if you thought it needed explanation, you could have just inquired, at this point I consider this asinine conversation to be closed.
- Location
- Irradiated Wasteland
I do not need to put any words in your mouth.
I do not need to "blame" you for anything.
You simply do not know what you are writing.
Sure it isn't something that needed to be clarified. Because the interpretation of what you wrote is obvious to everybody who is not you:
Seems I am not the only person here who has reading comprehension problems then (according to your logic of course).
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- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, Unit-00 is Shinji's friend.
Either Rei's consciousness had influence over the the Unit-00 gestalt, she had no influence over it, or her conscious initially had no influence but she broke through it, kinda like a character resisting mind control.
That last option can be safely ignored, since the gestalt was reluctant to fight Shinji from the start. Willing, but reluctant. It's not coldly fighting him for a couple minutes, then snap, Rei's back and doesn't want to fight; the transition is more gradual, like Rei is being convinced that Shinji is more important than her desire to punish the wrongdoers.
The middle option is even more absurd, because Rei's friendship with Shinji is very obviously influencing the gestalt's behavior.
That leaves the possibility that Rei's consciousness had influence over the gestalt, and that the gestalt's actions therefore reflect Rei's desires on some level. This is the position taken by pretty much everyone in-story who has the slightest idea what's going on.
We made Misato tell Ritsuko she doesn't want to kill Rei as part of an argument to convince Ritsuko not to kill Rei.
I say that I think Rei wants to kill Ritsuko because I believe the evidence points in that direction.
If you think that the contrast between these statements is remarkable, you don't understand either.
No. The tanks don't work like that, Rei doesn't have the technical expertise to use the tanks properly, and cloning Ritsuko would not actually be a punishment. Rei isn't mad that Ritsuko cloned Rei Prime, she's mad that Ritsuko killed several prior clones.
Apologies aren't "justice" by any conventional definition of the term. If Rei just wanted an apology, she wouldn't say "I want justice for the people she killed"; that would be an irrational and unclear way to convey her intent. You're not thinking of Rei as a person trying to communicate, you're thinking of her as a set of enigmatic riddles to be decoded.
I don't think Rei wants to kill Ritsuko because I have no faith in Rei. My level of faith in her and how much I think she wants to kill Ritsuko are completely unrelated variables. I just looked at her words and actions and came to the conclusion that Rei wants to kill the person who has killed several prior iterations of her, is actively trying to kill her now, and has stated reasons why she wants to kill her that will not go away with a warm glass of milk and a good night's sleep.
Rei wanting to kill Ritsuko is not helpful, but it's not evil either. It's a counterproductive desire, but an understandable one.
Nothingness X: Hesitation
[X] Stand between Rei and Ritsuko.
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko you won't allow them to kill each other despite everything.
-[X] Ask Rei if she wants to tell her friends that she killed somebody in cold blood. Ask her if she is really ready to kill Misato only to get Ritsuko? What about killing Shinji? Hikari? Asuka?
-[X] Tell Ritsuko to give you the PDA, shut up and stop escalating. Even she knows deep down that Rei is human, not some empty shell.
You step in front of Rei and pray that she has the discipline not to immediately ventilate you with your own firearm. You're in luck—she does. Rei quickly removes her finger from the trigger and points the gun up and away from your body. Thank you, finally, Ritsuko mutters under her breath. You don't like the position you're in, but standing around yelling at Ritsuko while Rei points a gun at her isn't inspiring confidence that you're here to help. This is about the only sensible gesture of goodwill you can think of. You don't know if Rei would shoot if you tried to wrestle the gun away from her.
Rei asks what you're doing. She already warned you not to get in her way. Very slowly, hesitantly, she trains the gun on you. She will shoot. She is warning you. Please move out of the way, Major.
Behind you, Ritsuko reaches down for her discarded weapon. Without hesitation, you kick it far across the room. Ritsuko hisses obscenities at you. You're going to get everyone killed.
You tell Rei and Ritsuko that you refuse to let them kill each other. Neither outcome is acceptable to you. You tell Rei that like it or not, Ritsuko is important to keeping NERV running; even if Rei doesn't care about that, she should think about what she's doing. If she kills Ritsuko, any hope she has of survival will vanish. Rei's a smart girl. She knows this. Rei frowns at you, the gears in her head turning as she considers your words.
You tell Ritsuko that Rei is far too important to you, and moreover, you tell her that she knows that deep down, what she's doing is wrong. She's talking about executing a child. Ritsuko reiterates that Rei is not human and that she is trying to do what's necessary for the safety of humanity. In addition to the obvious problem of "Rei appears to be contemplating murdering high-level NERV personnel" that still needs to be dealt with, there are other things you don't know about Rei.
Like what? You ask.
Rei loudly (for her) reiterates that she'll really shoot if you don't move out of the way. She doesn't move her hand to the trigger. She doesn't even really move her finger to the outside of the trigger guard. She's at worst hesitant. At best, she's bluffing, and doing a terrible job of it. You ask her if she's really willing to kill you to get to Ritsuko. What is she going to tell Shinji? Or is she going to kill him too? She knows that he isn't going to let her destroy NERV, nor would be he onboard with something that would cause her harm. That's why he tried to stop her. Is she going to kill him? Is killing Asuka on the table too when she inevitably tries to stop her? Because you and Rei both know that Asuka is too stubborn to take this lying down. Is Hikari? Does Rei think Hikari is going to let her do something that endangers her family?
Rei says she'll shoot, blinking rapidly. She doesn't move her finger. Please move. Please. You don't move. Rei and you stare at each other, neither one of you moving to deescalate. Ritsuko reiterates her offer to tell you more about Rei. Rei grows visibly agitated.
You tell Ritsuko to hand over the PDA and to shut up. She's pointlessly escalating this conflict by constantly antagonizing Rei. Rei is a person with feelings. If Ritsuko didn't believe that, she wouldn't obviously have reservations about whatever horrible thing she was planning to do to the poor girl.
Ritsuko responds indignantly, extreme annoyance filling every syllable. First of all, she's been doing whatever she can to keep herself, and consequently humanity, alive. It's not exactly like she had a choice but to try to convince you to act for the common good. She was just answering questions you asked, in the vain hope it would give you the proper context to understand the severity of the situation you're in.
Second, she's not putting the PDA away until Rei disarms herself. Apart from you being between Rei and her, which she's not wholly convinced is an ironclad defense, if she's being honest, it's the only tool she has to at least give Rei pause about shooting her. Rei's interests and her interests are currently mutually incompatible, so the only reason she can use on Rei is something Rei has never had to worry about, the threat of actual, permanent death. Which would be excruciating and slow, by the way. The suffering would be unimaginable. If that isn't enough to stop Rei from killing Ritsuko, then it only proves Ritsuko's point that she's completely gone.
So no, she's not going to disarm herself until the threat of Rei ending her life is no longer a factor in this discussion.
What now?
[ ] Write-in
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko you won't allow them to kill each other despite everything.
-[X] Ask Rei if she wants to tell her friends that she killed somebody in cold blood. Ask her if she is really ready to kill Misato only to get Ritsuko? What about killing Shinji? Hikari? Asuka?
-[X] Tell Ritsuko to give you the PDA, shut up and stop escalating. Even she knows deep down that Rei is human, not some empty shell.
You step in front of Rei and pray that she has the discipline not to immediately ventilate you with your own firearm. You're in luck—she does. Rei quickly removes her finger from the trigger and points the gun up and away from your body. Thank you, finally, Ritsuko mutters under her breath. You don't like the position you're in, but standing around yelling at Ritsuko while Rei points a gun at her isn't inspiring confidence that you're here to help. This is about the only sensible gesture of goodwill you can think of. You don't know if Rei would shoot if you tried to wrestle the gun away from her.
Rei asks what you're doing. She already warned you not to get in her way. Very slowly, hesitantly, she trains the gun on you. She will shoot. She is warning you. Please move out of the way, Major.
Behind you, Ritsuko reaches down for her discarded weapon. Without hesitation, you kick it far across the room. Ritsuko hisses obscenities at you. You're going to get everyone killed.
You tell Rei and Ritsuko that you refuse to let them kill each other. Neither outcome is acceptable to you. You tell Rei that like it or not, Ritsuko is important to keeping NERV running; even if Rei doesn't care about that, she should think about what she's doing. If she kills Ritsuko, any hope she has of survival will vanish. Rei's a smart girl. She knows this. Rei frowns at you, the gears in her head turning as she considers your words.
You tell Ritsuko that Rei is far too important to you, and moreover, you tell her that she knows that deep down, what she's doing is wrong. She's talking about executing a child. Ritsuko reiterates that Rei is not human and that she is trying to do what's necessary for the safety of humanity. In addition to the obvious problem of "Rei appears to be contemplating murdering high-level NERV personnel" that still needs to be dealt with, there are other things you don't know about Rei.
Like what? You ask.
Rei loudly (for her) reiterates that she'll really shoot if you don't move out of the way. She doesn't move her hand to the trigger. She doesn't even really move her finger to the outside of the trigger guard. She's at worst hesitant. At best, she's bluffing, and doing a terrible job of it. You ask her if she's really willing to kill you to get to Ritsuko. What is she going to tell Shinji? Or is she going to kill him too? She knows that he isn't going to let her destroy NERV, nor would be he onboard with something that would cause her harm. That's why he tried to stop her. Is she going to kill him? Is killing Asuka on the table too when she inevitably tries to stop her? Because you and Rei both know that Asuka is too stubborn to take this lying down. Is Hikari? Does Rei think Hikari is going to let her do something that endangers her family?
Rei says she'll shoot, blinking rapidly. She doesn't move her finger. Please move. Please. You don't move. Rei and you stare at each other, neither one of you moving to deescalate. Ritsuko reiterates her offer to tell you more about Rei. Rei grows visibly agitated.
You tell Ritsuko to hand over the PDA and to shut up. She's pointlessly escalating this conflict by constantly antagonizing Rei. Rei is a person with feelings. If Ritsuko didn't believe that, she wouldn't obviously have reservations about whatever horrible thing she was planning to do to the poor girl.
Ritsuko responds indignantly, extreme annoyance filling every syllable. First of all, she's been doing whatever she can to keep herself, and consequently humanity, alive. It's not exactly like she had a choice but to try to convince you to act for the common good. She was just answering questions you asked, in the vain hope it would give you the proper context to understand the severity of the situation you're in.
Second, she's not putting the PDA away until Rei disarms herself. Apart from you being between Rei and her, which she's not wholly convinced is an ironclad defense, if she's being honest, it's the only tool she has to at least give Rei pause about shooting her. Rei's interests and her interests are currently mutually incompatible, so the only reason she can use on Rei is something Rei has never had to worry about, the threat of actual, permanent death. Which would be excruciating and slow, by the way. The suffering would be unimaginable. If that isn't enough to stop Rei from killing Ritsuko, then it only proves Ritsuko's point that she's completely gone.
So no, she's not going to disarm herself until the threat of Rei ending her life is no longer a factor in this discussion.
What now?
[ ] Write-in
Isn't Misato doing that already though?
Seems like a good opening to try and offer a compromise then, we should try to take this.
Uh, Ritsuko, Rei cares exactly null about this right now, so you might want to do something else?
Good, Ritsuko isn't suicidal, and we now have a fixed hardpoint to work with?
Edit:
Oops?
[X] Consider my questions retracted then, I care less about having my questions answered than resolving this crisis: Rei, you heard her, please put down the gun so we can get somewhere productive?
-[X] Ritsuko, I was worried you'd never ask. Here's an alternative: We not kill any Reis or Ritsukos in this room, you cooperate with hiding this fact; and we treat this as a very energetic debate as friends to get to know each other better and move on?
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"Consider me convinced, but I think we differ as to where common good lies..."
Something like this maybe?
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You basically asked her to stop hiding things about Rei (and in general), so she did (partially, in a manner obviously designed to get you to take sides out of sheer exasperation at the situation) answer and clarify several things about Rei. Which Rei hasn't been too happy about.
- Location
- The Frozen North
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It looks like the situation may be on a path to a decent resolution at this point. I think the direction to take is to focus on Rei until she de-escalates.* Our current appeals seem to be having an effect based on her blinking. I think it may be worth trying to work in Misato's relationship to Rei in the vote since we've touched on everyone else already.
*Especially since I think it's fairly obvious that continuing to push on Ritsuko isn't going to go anywhere, at least for the moment.
*Especially since I think it's fairly obvious that continuing to push on Ritsuko isn't going to go anywhere, at least for the moment.
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Mechasaurian
Big Bossu
- Location
- Lost among fields of history
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Tell Rei to put down the gun. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
I am still on the punching Ritsuko train. Channel some of that hot-blooded mecha show protagonist energy this place needs. Evoke the spirit of Ryoma if need be.
[X] Ask Ritsuko not to tell you anything more about Rei, you retract your request to know as that is less important than the safety and emotional wellbeing of everyone here
-[X] Tell Rei to put down the gun. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
I want to cut down any hooks Ritsuko may use for Unwelcome Exposition here given the QM clarification, although the wording definitely needs more work?
-[X] Tell Rei to put down the gun. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
I want to cut down any hooks Ritsuko may use for Unwelcome Exposition here given the QM clarification, although the wording definitely needs more work?
- Location
- Laniakea
Rei clearly doesn't want Misato to know her entire story. Ritsuko probably knows that and seems eager to spill it on purpose.
I don't think pushing further for answers at this point is going make Rei want to put down the gun, so much as shoot in panic.
[X] Tell Rei that no matter what her secrets or circumstances are, she's already proven her humanity to you. You'll wait for Rei to speak when she wants to.
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko to put down their weapons at the same time. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's humanity and right to live.
There's even a distinct possibility that, if she thinks her gambit has failed and Ritsuko can't be stopped from spilling everything, Rei might do a complete 180 and not just give up, but acquiesce to getting replaced or shoot herself to prevent Misato from hearing whatever Ritsuko is eager to spill (probably about her Angelic origins).
I don't think pushing further for answers at this point is going make Rei want to put down the gun, so much as shoot in panic.
[X] Tell Rei that no matter what her secrets or circumstances are, she's already proven her humanity to you. You'll wait for Rei to speak when she wants to.
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko to put down their weapons at the same time. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's humanity and right to live.
There's even a distinct possibility that, if she thinks her gambit has failed and Ritsuko can't be stopped from spilling everything, Rei might do a complete 180 and not just give up, but acquiesce to getting replaced or shoot herself to prevent Misato from hearing whatever Ritsuko is eager to spill (probably about her Angelic origins).
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[X] Tell Rei that no matter what her secrets or circumstances are, she's already proven her humanity to you. You'll wait for Rei to speak when she wants to.
-[X] Tell Rei to put down the gun. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's humanity and right to live.
-[X] Tell Rei to put down the gun. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's humanity and right to live.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Editing PistachioCookies' write-in because I'd write pretty much the same thing, except I worry Ritsuko will just go "fuck you Rei" and push the button if Rei disarms first, or spills the Angel beans if we mention "humanity".
[X] Tell Rei that no matter what her secrets or circumstances are, she's already proven her humanity to you. You'll wait for Rei to speak when she wants to.
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko to put down their weapons at the same time. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's right to live.
[X] Tell Rei that no matter what her secrets or circumstances are, she's already proven her humanity to you. You'll wait for Rei to speak when she wants to.
-[X] Tell Rei and Ritsuko to put down their weapons at the same time. Pledge to do everything in your power to ensure Rei's safety. Reiterate that you're not letting anyone die here.
-[X] Ask Ritsuko what evidence she needs to be convinced of Rei's right to live.
- Location
- Laniakea
If she's not really suicidal, personally I don't think she'd actually push the button - since that would make Gendo upset and insofar as it seems, she's still firmly and unhealthily attached to the man. We really need to have a chat with Ritsuko about her personal issues as soon as possible.
But yea sure, why not, could try to get them both to disarm at the same time.
.....You know, I actually wonder what would happen if Ritsuko had a (bigger) breakdown and suddenly started trauma-dumping stuff about her mother and fears of being replaced by Maya or Asuka right here and now in front of Rei. Would Rei feel any sympathy for Ritsuko? Or just give her more stink-eye?
But yea sure, why not, could try to get them both to disarm at the same time.
.....You know, I actually wonder what would happen if Ritsuko had a (bigger) breakdown and suddenly started trauma-dumping stuff about her mother and fears of being replaced by Maya or Asuka right here and now in front of Rei. Would Rei feel any sympathy for Ritsuko? Or just give her more stink-eye?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's also - on reflection - an element of equal treatment that's important here; telling them both to disarm at the same time lets us point out that we're not favouring one party's survival over another, even if we're favouring one party's story over the other.
"Yeah it must really suck to be at constant risk of disposal and replacement..." - Rei Ayanami, if she had a sarcastic bone in her body.
More seriously, I suspect she'd be broadly sympathetic if not exactly sympathetic in the moment.
"Yeah it must really suck to be at constant risk of disposal and replacement..." - Rei Ayanami, if she had a sarcastic bone in her body.
More seriously, I suspect she'd be broadly sympathetic if not exactly sympathetic in the moment.
- Location
- Lost in the internet
Man, are we still on square one ?
A game of Mahjong or fushimi would have settled this way faster...
EDIT: joking aside, I'm morbidly curious to see what would happen if Misato just started crying and trauma-dump in the middle of this ?
A game of Mahjong or fushimi would have settled this way faster...
EDIT: joking aside, I'm morbidly curious to see what would happen if Misato just started crying and trauma-dump in the middle of this ?
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Videogamer921
oh god it’s him
- Location
- 10th circle of Hell; Ohio
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Definitely ruin the mood of the two of them trying to kill each other. It'd get real awkward