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Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline

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I see this discussion meandered a lot in different directions.

Aelita said:
In the present, our situation has been maintained by the hydrogen bomb, that ultimate weapon of counterrevolution. In contrast to the Red Army, which has always viewed the atomic weapon as another tactical weapon in its arsenal, the nuclear policy of the capitalists has always been premeditated mass murder as a "deterrent".
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Aelita said:
We are not even anti-nuclear weapon. In fact, we wish for more Kh-22 missiles in the FY1981 Defence Budget, one for each of Her Majesty's aircraft carriers.3
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Aelita said:
3. The author is alluding to the sinking of the HMS Invincible carrier group by the Chilean Naval Air Arm during the Falklands campaign.
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Spartakrod said:
The map of Germany is a bit screwy with west Germany being thicker at the south than the North.

Invincible is sunk by the Chilean air force with a nuclear missile for getting too close to Chile's national waters in an incident that very nearly kicks off global thermonuclear war and while that's averted; it kills the post-second Indochina war 70s detente stone dead and gives way to fifteen years of strife.
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I see there's a significant foray into the downsides of TTL what with nuclear brinksmanship and proliferation being considerably worse than OTL. Is tactical nuclear weaponry disseminated among the entire Comintern bloc?

Durabys said:
Any average person from OTL would be suicidal after merely six months in this kind of world.
This is like compressing the anguish, terror, and nihilism of the last 8 years of OTL with COVID, Trump, Crimea, Syria, Global Warming disasters into a period of 12 months and then multiply it by 70.
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Just IMO TTL is more polarized into opposing camps, but OTL a lot of people have no real hope for a vision of the future, with those that truly do (the neoliberals) deluding themselves with empty promises and rhetoric. Pessimism and cynicism is more widespread IOTL; militarism is more widespread ITTL. One can have an...enthusiasm for TTL's particular type of militarism than IOTL where it is completely centralized in the hands of the United States.

the atom said:
That's not that different from OTL. Historically fascists were/are better at international cooperation than socialists.
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To make a blanket statement, this is quite simply wrong. Fascist movements tend to hate each other, or barely conceal that mutual hatred and suspicion, if only because having fantastical irrendentist claims to all your neighbors tends to alienate or intimidate people. I mean, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy almost went to war with each other in the mid-30s over Austria, and were only pushed toward each other when Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia made Italy a pariah state. The alliance between Nazi Germany and Militarist Japan was an alliance of convenience because they shared a mutual hostility toward Britain, France, the Netherlands, and the USSR. These states would have immediately turned on each other if their interests hadn't conveniently aligned in the given moment.

Saint_007 said:
He could have... if he wanted the Red Army to collapse just as it took Paris and Marseilles. IOTL, the Soviet Army fought long and hard, but it was an issue of logistics; they were only getting so much, and the Americans were giving everyone the supplies.
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I've thought a lot about a hypothetical OTL "Soviet drive to the Atlantic" scenario before and I generally agree with this assessment. Hypothetically, as the Soviets drive closer to the Atlantic, their overland supply lines lengthen, while the Americans' overseas supply lines shorten. And Soviet offensive doctrine was infamously costly in terms of men and material. I now think in this scenario American atomic weapons get dropped on Soviet forces rather than Japan.
 
the atom said:
None of them consider it preferable to the status quo. Why are people bending over to defend the nuclear dolphin guy?
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Pointing out that "the nuclear dolphin guy" is an inaccurate summary of Posadas' actual politics is not "bending over to defend him" by any stretch of the imagination. And if you think there weren't substantial elements of several world governments who thought they could "win" a nuclear war, then you clearly haven't done your research. I'd suggest you start with Curtis LeMay, personally.
 
ExplicitCactus said:
What is LeMay up to in this timeline anyway?
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Here's him in 1937:
Miss Teri said:
Curtis LeMay - Following his participation on the Red side of the Civil War, LeMay has seen rapid advancement in the now Workers' and Farmers' Revolutionary Army Air Force, now holding the rank of Commander, and commanding officer of the 4th Tactical Bomber Regiment.
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Likely as OTL, he gets promoted when the war starts.
 
One question about Labour Vouchers:
What about sex work? How is it remunerated?
AIUI, in the follow up to the revolution and in the changing social mores, it was tolerated but still in some sort of grey zone. With these premises, I don't see this government scheme taking it into account.
Will we see a change in policies regarding it, or will it end up being a "criminal activity", with remuneration in kind, for example?
 
Brainarius said:
What I don't get is why Chile felt the need to bring tactical nukes along for the fight? Wouldn't the same number of conventional cruise missiles have been enough to sink the carrier? I agree that the carrier needed sinking but to use nuclear weapons to do so was an unnecessary escalation.
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Actually, sinking a carrier with cruise missiles is harder than it might seem. The Soviet Navy estimated that you needed up to 12 hits from Kh22 missiles to send an american supercarrier to the bottom. They actually had in the plans to send 3-5 planes armed with nuclear missiles along the strike that, must be noted, was made up by three bomber regiments or 100 planes, each carrying 1 or 2 missiles, all launching in a 1 minute window, plus ECM planes, reconnaissance elements, post strike assessement elements, etc. etc., and still they felt that it wasn't enough to bag a carrier, because of the CAP fighters, the ship based SAM, the electronic countermeasures and all of that jazz. They actually tought there would have been at least a 50% losses rate for each strike.

I mean, with those odds, I would too bring along a dose of instant nuclear sunshine, and damn the escalation.
 
ExplicitCactus said:
EDIT: also did whacky experiments like MKULTRA take place ITTL or are these kinds of experiments completely banned in the UASR
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Well, thanks to Sinclair's influence, there is research into psychic powers and parapsychology. It gets shuffled around after Sinclair leaves, but does get some minor attention from the military, and has its scope expanded during the 50's and 60's. Eventually, John C. Lilly becomes involved and the weirdness gets so bad that it leaks and is shut down.
 
Jake said:
How many hits would it take before the carrier couldn't launch and recover aircraft anymore?
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Depends on where the missile hits, but while a CVN supercarrier is hard to sink outright, mission-killing it is a lot easier. Any major hit to the flight-deck/hangar area by a weapon in the Kh-22's range would likely cause considerable secondary damage. There's deck parked planes, fuel lines, steam lines, and all manner of other sensitive equipment, to say nothing of the catapults and the flight deck itself. Unlike WW2 era carriers, which could patch their wooden decks while at sea, any major bomb hit and fuel fire is going to cause structural damage to the armored flight deck that can't be easily repaired.

The US Navy, to its credit, did develop a lot of systems to mitigate the spread of secondary fires and explosions on carriers, but it only did so after a major accident on the Forrestal. Even with those, a couple of hits across the flight deck will force a ship out of the operational area
 
I would imagine that part of the reason a Tactical Nuke was brought along was due to issuing an ultimatium such that if a red line is crossed then Chile would retaliate with a nuclear strike.
 
The thing with nuclear deterrence (any deterrence really, but nuclear is the topic today, so...) is that it only works if everyone involved is absolutely certain you really will do it. ITTL it had been stated that crossing the red line meant that a nuke would respond. The Whites didn't think they really meant it; now they know that yes, they really mean it.

Doubt is removed. The nuke may have temporarily raised the potential for WWIII, but failing to nuke would have guaranteed WWIII.
 
Miss Teri said:
Well, thanks to Sinclair's influence, there is research into psychic powers and parapsychology. It gets shuffled around after Sinclair leaves, but does get some minor attention from the military, and has its scope expanded during the 50's and 60's. Eventually, John C. Lilly becomes involved and the weirdness gets so bad that it leaks and is shut down.
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Oh god, funni LSD dolphin man is in the hood.
I can imagine his experiments must be pretty... special.

But in terms of experiments and science, do the USSR and UASR cooperate?
Do they have a shared space program?
 
ExplicitCactus said:
Oh god, funni LSD dolphin man is in the hood.
I can imagine his experiments must be pretty... special.

But in terms of experiments and science, do the USSR and UASR cooperate?
Do they have a shared space program?
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Yep. It gets real weird, real quickly.

The UASR and USSR collaborate extensively. Sputnik is a joint project, among others.
 
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Gabriel Over the White House, The Last Film of White America
  • Sidestory
    • Gabriel Over the White House, The Last Film of White America ​

    1932's Gabriel Over The White House is a bizarre anomaly of the final days of the Second Republic. The film starred Walter Huston as General-turned-President Buzz Windrip—a role that Huston regrets to this day.

    The plot of the movie is that newly-elected President Judd Hammond is seriously injured in an automobile accident shortly after being sworn in as President. With Hammond debilitated and unable to perform his duties, Windrip receives a vision from the Archangel Gabriel and ghost of Abraham Lincoln telling him he must save the country or it will fall to darkness.

    Windrip takes over the government, acting in Hammond's name, and begins to take radical steps in office. His first order is to clear the "bums" out of the National Mall (drafts of the screenplay called for the use of newsreel footage of the bonus army, the script called for a scene showing the eviction of the bonus army, but it was believed to have never been filmed). When members of Congress object, he locks them out and orders the legislative body dissolved.

    The film ends with President Hammond waking up from his illness and meeting with Windrip. Windrip says that he did what was needed to save the Republic, comparing himself to previous Roman Dictators who would take command in times of crisis. Windrip agrees to resign, Hammond gives him some sage wisdom about the necessity of hard men to make difficult decisions.

    The film was made in 1932 and was largely funded by William Randolph Hearst. The film was planned for a release in December of 1932, predicated on the idea of Hoover winning re-election in November.

    Pamphlets circulated in 1932 by the WFPL encouraged people to boycott theaters showing the film.

    It ultimately had a brief theatrical run that was sparsely attended. Following the events of Red May and the subsequent civil war, copies of the movie were destroyed by red forces.

    Today, the film is considered "lost" with no remaining complete copies. A print of the first reel was discovered in a raid on a Sons of Liberty compound in 1937. It is commonly believed that Hearst smuggled out a complete print of the movie, but if so it has never been exhibited publicly.

    Anti-Reaction Movie Night has posted a standing bounty for a complete copy of the film, as it was considered prescient for the later MacArthur putsch.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • The thing with nuking a carrier is that - barring a direct hit, the carrier is still there. While the Able and Baker tests at Crossroads were an order of magnitude smaller than a kh22, it still proved ships were remarkably resilient to an air-burst. Especially if the blast was received bow or stern on.

    In practice, even if the ship's structure survived, the ship's crew would be dead within a week from radiation poisoning. The carrier would be left as a scorched and burned hulk - an irradiated coffin filled with the dying and the dead pleading desperately for help.

    One would imagine a direct hit would be more merciful - but carriers rarely operate on their own and there may picket ships around.

    The consequences of this could be quite defining for the international outcry over nuclear weapons.


    Miss Teri said:
    Yep. It gets real weird, real quickly.

    The UASR and USSR collaborate extensively. Sputnik is a joint project, among others.
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    Am I the only one who expects this to lead to a certain Large, Powerful Channel Reactor being built on US soil?
     
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    Instant Sunrise said:
    Today, the film is considered "lost" with no remaining complete copies. A print of the first reel was discovered in a raid on a Sons of Liberty compound in 1937. It is commonly believed that Hearst smuggled out a complete print of the movie, but if so it has never been exhibited publicly
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    Love the idea of some Cuban patriotic, but also arthouse dickhead trying to "reconstruct" the remaining footage of this film.
     
    A few grammatical corrections in pink below:

    Instant Sunrise said:
    Gabriel Over the White House, The Last Film of White America

    1932's Gabriel Over The White House is a bizarre anomaly of the final days of the Second Republic. The film started stars Walter Huston as General-turned-President Buzz Windrip—a role that Huston regrets to this day.

    The plot of the movie is that when the newly-elected President Judd Hammond is seriously injured in an automobile accident shortly after being sworn in as President. With Hammond debilitated and unable to perform his duties, Windrip receives a vision from the Archangel Gabriel and ghost of Abraham Lincoln telling him he must save the country or it will fall to darkness.

    Windrip takes over the government, acting in Hammond's name, and begins to take radical steps in office. His first order is to clear the "bums" out of the National Mall (drafts of the screenplay called for the use of newsreel footage of the bonus army, the script called for a scene showing the eviction of the bonus army, but it was believed to have never been filmed). When members of Congress object, he locks them out and orders the legislative body dissolved.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
     
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