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Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

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I know it will not be for a while due to there still being plenty of room in the central valley, but I am excited for when Rome expands north into the Willamette Valley, a large fertile, and a nice and large navigable river for transport. Plus, if they find the Oswego iron deposit it might spark an iron rush,
 
I suppose I could cut Heraklonas some slack now. He took concrete steps to improve Elysium's situation after recognizing how his complacency had created vulnerabilities in its security. And while he did perform a Potemkin village writ large, he was working behind the scenes to fix the issues.

I also enjoyed the significant contrast between the POV of the foreign visitor and the actual state of Elysium. Adds more nuance to the story.

Great update!
 
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Charles Dewitt said:
An Iron Rush of all things. Hysterical.
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Two knock-on effects we might see from this one.
1) Russians actually keeping ahold of Alaska because wowee do their European territories have a shitload of middling-quality iron the Romans will want to trade in for general purposes--and a Russian Aleutian Island chain or Russian Vancouver will help immensely in securing that metal.
2) If the Russians have the shitty iron for anchors, nails, and the like, the Swedes may seek to get in on the colony rush more extensively than OTL as well, because they're the other Baltic polity with extensive iron deposits at hand, and theirs are of far better quality than those of the Russians, if much lower in quantity. So a niche exists for both countries to satisfy Roman needs. We could even see a Swedish Canada because somebody who knows wtf they're doing needs to work all that iron hiding under the ground in Leafland.
 
Subbed! You should definitely consider a video series of this story--it is simply an amazing thing to read and I don't doubt that it would be immensely gratifying to listen to as well. The emphasis on the sheer inflation of gold here is very interesting, I doubt it will be as wasted as it was under the Spanish, but it will certainly be hard to fairly barter this gold with Europeans for goods and talent like you mention. Now I am just waiting for the point in which an Arcadian sailor hears about Magellan's journey and decides to go west themselves. It stands to reason that the Romans here are the most likely to stumble upon Hawaii, and perhaps even begin relations with China much earlier than in OTL.
 
floppy_seal99 said:
Two knock-on effects we might see from this one.
1) Russians actually keeping ahold of Alaska because wowee do their European territories have a shitload of middling-quality iron the Romans will want to trade in for general purposes--and a Russian Aleutian Island chain or Russian Vancouver will help immensely in securing that metal.
2) If the Russians have the shitty iron for anchors, nails, and the like, the Swedes may seek to get in on the colony rush more extensively than OTL as well, because they're the other Baltic polity with extensive iron deposits at hand, and theirs are of far better quality than those of the Russians, if much lower in quantity. So a niche exists for both countries to satisfy Roman needs. We could even see a Swedish Canada because somebody who knows wtf they're doing needs to work all that iron hiding under the ground in Leafland.
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Isn't the Arctic Sea basically non-navigable until like 1920 and the advent of icebreakers and radios? The Northern Sea Route was only successfully traversed in the 1870s, and until 2017 it required icebreakers.

I would have guessed that the Baltic states are actually in basically the worst position of any European power to trade with the Romans as they have a long way to go to get to the Magellan Straights or the Cape of Good Hope. It's a lot cheaper to send goods by sea than by land after all, but it's not free.

The Romans would be better off trading with the Chinese, the European East Indes colonies and the Japanese. Or the Russians after they build the trans-Siberian railway I guess.
 
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FriedIce said:
I would have guessed that the Baltic states are actually in basically the worst position of any European power to trade with the Romans as they have a long way to go to get to the Magellan Straights or the Cape of Good Hope. It's a lot cheaper to send goods by sea than by land after all, but it's not free.
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IIRC the Baltic powers were enthusiastic participants in the Atlantic triangle trade if prone to using the British as a middleman based on logistical needs. If they establish colonies of their own on the East Coast or around Hudson Bay though…it could get a bit easier to go overland in North America at least so long as the Romans map a trail through the Great Plains and Rockies. Teton Pass is unironically ideal for this perhaps.
 
floppy_seal99 said:
IIRC the Baltic powers were enthusiastic participants in the Atlantic triangle trade if prone to using the British as a middleman based on logistical needs. If they establish colonies of their own on the East Coast or around Hudson Bay though…it could get a bit easier to go overland in North America at least so long as the Romans map a trail through the Great Plains and Rockies. Teton Pass is unironically ideal for this perhaps.
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I guess it's possible? But the East Coast or Hudson Bay to California is a really really long way, over some pretty terrible terrain.

Post-railroads it could definitely be feasible, but relying on a horse and cart? Through Amerindian territory? Much easier just to take a boat.
 
I mean, Sweden to California isn't actually that much farther a journey then Spain to California. Presuming Swedish merchants can stop in Portugese and Spanish ports for resupply. (And I see no reason for those two powers to deny Swedish merchant shipping port access) Then they could just take the long way the same as anyone else in Europe.
 
FriedIce said:
I guess it's possible? But the East Coast or Hudson Bay to California is a really really long way, over some pretty terrible terrain.

Post-railroads it could definitely be feasible, but relying on a horse and cart? Through Amerindian territory? Much easier just to take a boat.
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Its basically only possible by boat. The Great American Desert is just too nasty, big, and dry to cross. The Sierra Nevada is meanwhile a near fucking cliff for traversal purposes. No, seriously: There are parts of the Foothills that go from near sea level to 4 to 5 thousand feet in 5 miles. The sole reason they arent called Mountains is that they are immediately in front of actual bare-rock mountains right behind them. Its actually not an easy place to traverse as a result.

Soeaking of rain shadows, something useful to keep in mind is that the central valley is basically perfectly designed to make constant rain shadows. First the Cascades cause a rain shadow in the middle of the valley while drenching the passes and western side. Because the valley is flat and about 1k to 2k feet below the tops of the cascades in most places, the clouds spread out a bit reducing rain. However, then come the Foothills. Because the Foothills get big fast in many places and even where they dont still get pretty big, this alone causes a rain shadow. This means they get more rain than a lot of the central valley. And well, the Sierra Nevada takes the rest. Theres places where you can be looking at a rainstorm in a forest to the west and turn your head east only to see a sun-cooked salt flat. Some spots in that pass you can even do that without even turning your head.
 
Daedwartin said:
Its basically only possible by boat. The Great American Desert is just too nasty, big, and dry to cross. The Sierra Nevada is meanwhile a near fucking cliff for traversal purposes. No, seriously: There are parts of the Foothills that go from near sea level to 4 to 5 thousand feet in 5 miles. The sole reason they arent called Mountains is that they are immediately in front of actual bare-rock mountains right behind them. Its actually not an easy place to traverse as a result.
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The east side is nastily steep, too. You have mountains, over 8000 feet high for most of the chain, and then it suddenly plummets to about 5000 feet in the floor of the Great Basin. Take a look at the mountains from Owens Valley and that very clearly shows the problem. The drop east of Tioga Pass in Yosemite is 3000 feet in just twelve miles, and that's on the road. As the crow flies the drop is even worse.

There are a few reasons why there are no trans-Sierra roads for 137 miles between Sherman Pass and Minaret Summit, and the incredibly steep drop is one of them. Piute Pass stands at 11,400 feet, for example.
 
Staff Notice - Please avoid begging people to come to your YouTube in an unrelated thread
Noice!
It seems like a the Aztec is starting to crumble. In times of trouble, that's when Christianity shines. Maybe, if there is a more "theological" leader, he could send orthodox missionaries as diplomats to play off the Mexica and the Spanish.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DgjcBoPOKDQ&t=12s
 
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Currently intending to get an update together by the weekend. Will, once again, be focusing more on the Empire outside of Constantinople. The wilderness, the natives, maybe Dragases*.

One can hope, at least.

*OTL San Diego


(The winterfest has also started up again, for what that's worth. Fully suspect SV's golden child will be the only AH to show up, even if we've never gotten the appeal.)
 
We were fully intending on updating.

…then we got hit over the head by a severe cold or flu on Saturday. Still kicking us, even now.

Hopefully we'll feel better over the weekend. No promises, though.
 
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Chapter 27
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    • Chapter 27
    On the Fringes of Empire
    ​
    As the Emperor Heraklonas awed and wowed visitors to Constantinople, life on the fringes of the Roman Empire continued much the same as it had since the days of Constantine. Brave men hacked their way through ancient forests to establish farms and settler communities. They followed rivers through the great valley. Paths tread by natives for centuries became the beginnings of the classic Roman roads. Even when the Emperor declared an end to the era of exploration, it did little to nothing to stop these frontiersmen. With such a vast and untamed land to settle, was it any surprise that even in the relatively lightly populated Roman Empire, that people would venture out? Search for new homes away from others?

    In those days, it was a rare year where a new village wasn't cut from the great trees. That galleys didn't venture up the rivers. And, of course, that men and women didn't stare at the majestic and deadly mountains surrounding the valley. Mountains glorious and great, yet deadly to those who underestimated their frozen peaks and ravines.

    To the natives who had lived in Elysium for centuries, it must have seemed novel to see the simple awe on the face of the rough and tumble Roman frontiersmen. It was truly a blessing, that the natives were so peaceful in Elyisum, quite unlike those of Mesoarcadia. It must have equally been a blessing from the perspective of the natives themselves. That they were living near- and in -the Roman Empire and not in the colonies of European powers. While never perfect or quite meeting their lofty goals, the Romans most assuredly treated their native kin far better than the colonial powers. [1]

    - The Roman Empire in the Far West, 1927

    When Heraklonas began his efforts to show Constantinople and the glory of the Empire to European visitors, it changed less than one might have expected in his sprawling Empire. Certainly, he rebuilt the Army and Navy. He fortified the coastal settlements. And he transformed Constantinople from a sleepy port, content with its lot in life, into a bustling center of trade once again. As bustling as it was possible to be in those early days, when shipping along the Elysian and Mesoarcadian coast was still somewhat limited. All of this is certainly true and was an impressive feat of both actual action and clever subterfuge.

    It also did remarkably little to change the lot in life of the average Roman or Native living away from the coast.

    Here, in isolated homesteads and simple farms, life continued on much as it already had been. These were hardy settlers, the kind of men and women who didn't enjoy 'civilized' society and craved the countryside and a simpler life. In this, they had much in common with colonists in later colonies on the other side of Arcadia. Where the Romans differed, perhaps, was in their interactions with the natives they lived alongside.[2]

    Here, Constantine's declarations and the cultural inertia it had created, continued. As Roman settlements spread out, they more often than not followed native tracks. First Ohlone, then other tribes as they moved further inland. While Elysium was not as densely populated as Mesoarcardia, there were still numerous tribes living a simple life in the forests and plains. These were generally small groups that would hardly qualify as proper 'states' by the European definition, though they seemed to be content with that.

    Quite often speaking different tongues- even the Ohlone spoke different dialects -and following different gods and cultures. These natives were, by and large, peaceful. Conflict was hardly unknown, but the great wars of the Aztec and Purépecha were unknown to these people. With such bountiful lands and so much space, combined with the smaller population size of disparate groups, wars were not really worth the effort. Raids and tribal skirmishes certainly didn't qualify. When Roman settlers began to move into this land, they didn't go out of their way to create conflict, either.

    Raids and skirmishes were inevitable and there remain black marks of entire tribes being wiped out in retaliation for attacks. [3]

    Yet these were still a fairly uncommon event. Romans would generally prefer trade and peaceful relations. Learning from the natives and living off the land as they did. It is telling that, in more than one case, the Elysian natives would find themselves curiously integrating into Roman settlements as they saw them till the land and tame it to their liking. The natives had rarely seen the need to do so, finding the bounty of nature enough to life off of, but there was a certain appeal to the life the Romans brought. It might also have been down to the obviously native Romans, living alongside Greeks or Italians or Turks, that caused this. Curiosity, then as now, was a powerful force for change.

    As was religion. For where the Romans went, the Orthodox Church followed. It is always worth remembering the other part of Constantine's declaration. That the Natives should be brought to God. They should be guided and treated as any Roman would be, certainly, but they should also be swayed to the light of the Lord and away from their pagan beliefs. In this, the Romans were not that different from the Spanish or English or any number of other European colonizers.

    The Romans, at the least, did not crowd natives into Missions. Nor did they carry the sword along with the cross. The preferred tactic of the Roman Church was, in fact, to have converted natives be the ones to carry the word to other natives. While this was difficult in Elysium due to the sheer breadth and scope of different tribes, it still worked remarkably well. Native converts understood their pagan counterparts better, even with the tribal differences. They were proponents of gradual and gentle conversion. Where every new settlement sprang up, a church would as well. Priests would spread the word of God to nearby tribes, but they would not bring it with force, nor would they crusade against the natives.

    The successful, if slow, conversion of the Purépecha was an excellent model to follow.

    Given incentive to convert for access to Roman aid, the Mesoarcadians were quick to convert, if slow to drop their less egregious quirks and beliefs. The Elysian tribes had less need for integrating with the Roman market, but they did find reason to join the Empire. If only because, no matter how large Elysium was, the Romans would eventually come to rule it all. Small tribes of a few hundred people could never resist for long, and it must have been apparent to even the blindest of native that this was the case. They could either brave the mountains- something that more than a few refused to do -or accept integration into the Roman state.

    It is no secret, of course, that even those who accepted integration would often hold to their old beliefs alongside the cross. Native gods being transmuted into saints- or mixed with existing saints -was not uncommon in those days. Native beliefs about the skies, or the earth beneath their feet, or the rivers that supplied them with water and fish were often mixed with Christian tales. The syncretic nature of 'Frontier Orthodoxy' is a topic worthy of multiple books all its own, and has indeed spawned many a tome, though it naturally varied between different tribes. Larger ones were more likely to maintain some of their own beliefs, while smaller family groups generally converted more 'properly'.

    For a certain value of 'properly'. The Roman Orthodox Church is, even in the modern day, a vastly different one from the Greek Orthodox Church left behind in Europe. The differences between, say, the Greek and Ukranian Churches are nothing on the differences between the Greek and Roman Churches. [4]

    A simple summary, for the purposes of this tale, is that the further from Constantinople or the coast one went, the less 'orthodox' the Church became. This was tolerated as the native Christians were still, in the end, Christians. If they were a bit odd compared to a Greek or even Ohlone living in Constantinople and worshiping in the old Sophia, they still had more in common with their Roman brethren than with Catholics or other later denominations of Christianity.

    A final note on the frontier settlements is that they only rarely saw European visitors for much of their history. Some of the more isolated ones, such as Irena- the capital of one of the larger provinces of Elysium -would not see European visitors until the Eighteenth Century. Settlers? Not for even longer. Europeans tended to prefer the coastal areas, such as Constantinople or Dragases. And if not the coastal areas, they would often move inland further north, away from the mountains. After all, the Romans would move their Empire further north, as Heraklonas loosened restrictions on expansion and as the population continued to explode further with each year.

    The one thing that the Romans would not lack, for a long time, was a thriving birth rate. Not with the land and resources they possessed.

    Luckily for the natives, Heraklonas' decision to make gold mining a firm Imperial role, was that their lands were not spoiled by Europeans swarming them. One faintly shudders to think of what a gold rush, by Romans or Europeans, would have done. The ceaseless hunt for gold would have ruined land and uprooted ancient native settlements. Instead, with the mines only active when needed and under firm control of the Imperial family, the mining was done at a sustainable rate. It certainly helped to improve the view of the Romans in the eyes of the natives. Not least because they weren't being slaughtered for the 'crime' of living near gold mines.


    The 'fringe' or 'frontier' of the Empire, in those days, did not just refer to the forests and deeper parts of the Elysian valleys. While now considered the Second City of the Empire- and even considered such then, to some extent -the port of Dragases was still a small frontier settlement. Certainly, compared to Constantinople which, if still recovering from centuries of neglect, at least had the old city to grow into. Dragases started fresh and, while an excellent harbor and stopping point towards Alexiopolis, needed to develop to its later heights. With a climate that would have been quite familiar to any Romans who could remember that of Europe and an arguably better natural port, it was no surprise that it would be settled early in the days of Roman expansion. The first proper city settled outside of Constantinople, in fact, as most of the towns nearer to the Queen of Cities were smaller affairs.

    Dragases, when Europeans visited, was something akin to Havana in Cuba. A multicultural melting pot with a mix of native and Roman construction. Dragases showed its nature as a newer city than Constantinople in the more 'modern' appearance of many of its buildings. As well as in how the natives shaped construction, for even if they had not been particularly inclined towards permanent cities before, they took to it with a passion now.

    It helped to distinguish the city in that, in sharp contrast to Constantinople, Dragases was a naturally hilly city. As much a set of interconnected villages as a proper city. Constantinople might have been much the same, had it not been for the fact that the City overwrote the dominantly hilly local geography when it was relocated. [5]

    As an important stop over between Alexiopolis and Constantinople, Dragases was the first proper Roman settlement that Europeans would have encountered. In this they would have seen a shadow of Constantinople, even in an arguably more vibrant form. Construction was constant as Heraklonas pumped gold and resources into fortifying and expanding the natural harbor. Walls had sprung up, shining white in the warm sunlight, that arguably surpassed those of Theodosius. While not built up to the same extent as the Theodosian Walls, these were new construction, built with the full intention of mounting cannon. And with the supplies of copper and tin of Mesoarcadia, bronze cannon were indeed standing proud atop these new walls. If these walls were less expansive than the Theodosian Walls, they were arguably more modern and a stronger fortification in what they did cover.

    The sea-walls, in particular, were built up to the point that European commentaries on Dragases often speak in glowing tones about the Roman's never forgetting how to build fortifications. Along with cautionary warnings that attempting to take this port by force would be prohibitively costly, even if it were possible to get a fleet and army that far from Europe.

    Beyond the walls, the city had begun to prosper with shops and markets as far as the eye could see. While Dragases had a certain military flair to it, as could be expected of its nature as the 'frontier capital', it also had a vibrant economy. Merchants would often begin to flock to the docks of the Second City, as a closer location to the markets of Mesoarcadia. Constantinople maintained its preeminence in the Empire through inertia from its ancient markets, as well as its status of capital of the Empire. Dragases developed because of its prime location and the active investements of a thriving merchant class.

    This would create the almost dual persona the city would become known for. The beating heart of the Roman Navy was also a thriving trade port, filled with ships of all nationalities. It is, maybe, not as dysfunctional as it sounds. Heraklonas was quite interested in European ship designs, and what better way than to have them in close proximity to his own growing fleet? It is probably true that European ship masters were aware of this, but gold greased many a palm in those days.

    The lands around Dragases, though, were sparsely populated. As excellent a port as the city was, there were better lands from the perspective of farmers further north. So Dragases developed into an enclave surrounded by largely empty- though there were small towns outside the walls -land. Compared to Constantinople, surrounded by small towns and natives curiously moving to live near The City? Or Alexiopolis, springing up a new town every day it seemed, as the Mesoarcadians became aware of how wealthy they could become living nearby?

    Dragases must have seemed quite out of place, for the second city of the Roman Empire.

    Then again, those living in the city were quite fine with that. They were proud of their city and what they had built, and it was easier to show it off without outer towns distracting from that. Certainly, the Europeans remained impressed by the city, and they were awed further by the fact they were in a place that didn't have a web of smaller towns and villages surrounding it.

    The true fringe of the Empire was, as it would be for many years to come, the imposing mountains ringing Elysium, though.

    These peaks and ridges, snow-covered and majestic, created a natural boundary the likes of which only the Alps or Himalayas really matched. The passes were often choked with snow and dangerous to move through, even for those familiar with them. More than a few expeditions would suffer the same fate as that of Demir the Turk. The more military minded of the Romans saw this as an advantage in some ways, as between the long distance to sail to reach Roman waters and the mountains blocking any hypothetical attack from the East, the heartland of Elysium was incredibly secure. The mountains almost didn't even require fortifying, they were so imposing and treacherous.

    The more economically minded, on the other hand, saw a barrier to trade. Natives spoke of confederations of people across the mountains. Not the Mesoarcadians, but a completely different people. There were even legends, passed down by word of mouth, of cliff dwelling societies of rich peoples as sophisticated as the Romans. That one seemed almost impossible to believe, though we now know who these legends referred to. [6]

    It was an issue making contact with these peoples, however, in that crossing the mountains was so dangerous. The natives knew of passes and paths to take, but these were hardly intended for mass migrations or anything of the nature. Not that it stopped some adventurers with their horses, often descended from the original Turkish population. Those men and their horses would crop up in later histories, though for now, they leave Roman records. For the Empire largely ignored expanding past the mountains, for the moment. While traders and other such men would brave the passes with native guides, it was never any major activity, not in those days. Heraklonas, even with his new take on life, saw no real need for it when Europeans would come by ship.

    This was, of course, to the south of the Roman lands.

    The north was relatively untouched by Roman hands to this point. We will come to that part of Elyisum later, as the Romans gradually spread out towards the natural ports and the more developed tribes of the north. It would become a critical part of the Empire, a wealthy hub of farming and industry. Those days are in the future. For in the reign of Heraklonas, only a hardy subset of fisherman had moved towards the lands of tribes like the Haida.

    It was, truly, the frontier of frontiers as far as Romans were concerned.



    1. As has been covered before, the Roman Empire gradually developed into a multicultural melting pot of a society. The initial Greek core- with Italian and Turkish subsets -would be merged into ever growing numbers of natives. To be a 'Roman' was to be 'a man or woman who speaks Greek and follows the word of Christ'. It didn't matter if you were, ethnically, Greek or Ohlone or any number of others. This was the great strength of the Empire, more than any amount of gold or any skilled soldiers.

    2. European colonizers are infamous for their efforts to push natives aside and take their prime lands. Even in areas where there were ostensible efforts to 'convert and bring the light' to the natives, it often came with the sword and the gun. Many natives died to European steel, while the Romans did their utmost to peacefully- most of the time -integrate the natives in their lands.

    3. This is not to say the Romans were perfect. Conflict was inevitable and the best of intentions could never completely cover that. Moreover, many cultures would vanish, subsumed by the Roman culture. If old languages endured longer and were better recorded than they might otherwise have been, that was good. But many a tribe would completely switch to Greek and would lose their unique heritage. This is not a black mark, necessarily, though it is worthy of discussion.

    4. As has been covered before, Roman Orthodoxy would become quite distinct from any flavor of European Orthodoxy. It was almost inevitable. Even ignoring increasing native syncretism, there was no getting around how dramatic the salvation of Constantinople was. It, and Saint Constantine, changed the Roman Church drastically from what it had been. While still as much an Orthodox Church as any in Europe, it was different in the details in ways none of them were.

    5. It is fascinating to look at the stark and sudden transition from 'old' Elysium to Constantinople. The sudden substitution of such a large landmass is impossible to miss, not least because of the hilly terrain surrounding the City.

    6. The Pueblo peoples, largely migrated away from their soaring cliff-face settlements, were the topic of these old legends. When Roman explorers did come across these ancient dwellings, they would be every bit as impressed as the natives believed they would be. It was a feat of engineering that impressed even the most jaded Roman. It was a shame that they arrived too late to see these settlements in their prime.

    AN: Not the longest update ever, but there we go. Wanted to get this done before Christmas. Hope it's good enough for the wait. Now that we're feeling better, hopefully the next one won't take as long. We'd ideally like to update again before New Years.

    ...we'll see.

    (Obligatory: Winterfest is ongoing. If you haven't already voted, we'd appreciate it. Don't expect to win by any stretch, but we'd take not being last too.)
     
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