I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unlike with other 'miracles' in reality, there is no plausible secular explanation for Constantinople being in North America.
The ultimate answer is in Pataphysics, no? The city moved because the Author thought it was a good story hook, and we're all still here so it can't have been too wrong.
The ultimate answer is in Pataphysics, no? The city moved because the Author thought it was a good story hook, and we're all still here so it can't have been too wrong.
Teleporting cities rank slightly higher on the 'how the fuck did that happen' graph of Miracles than the Holy Fire, of which literally the only thing that people actually see is the Patriarch leaving a sealed room with a pair of candles.
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e: I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unlike with other 'miracles' in reality, there is no plausible secular explanation for Constantinople being in North America. Furthermore, the scale of the miracle is much larger (an entire city and all the people in it) than any modern 'miracle' by orders of magnitude, it is the sort of thing that literally anyone can go look at and see the impossibility right there in front of them, rather than being told about it by an old dude who is very definitely 100% trustworthy and has no ulterior motives whatsoever.
Do not confuse the modern version of the rite and what was in the past. Catholics, Muslims, and even Protestants (during the protectorate of Great Britain) were very eager to expose the Miracle, so sometimes the patriarch had to pray literally with a scimitar at his throat. Also, why do you think the whole process is about taking out the candles? Before the descent, the temple begins to light up with bright flashes of Blessed Light, here and there small lightning flashes. In slow motion, you can clearly see that they come from different places of the temple - from the icon hanging over the Kuvukliya, from the dome of the Temple, from the windows and from other places, and fill everything around with bright light. In addition, here and there, between the columns and the walls of the temple, quite visible lightning flashes, which often pass harmlessly through standing people. The fire does not burn at first. It is easier for European pilgrims to get to Jerusalem. Many Catholics witnessed the Orthodox miracle, but there was no change in policy.
You understand that the leaders of other Abramic religions can not say: "we have known for several hundred years that the true faith is Eastern Orthodox Christianity, but we were silent about it and now everyone who is not an Orthodox Christian will burn in hell for eternity." Therefore, the denial of the miracle of teleportation will be as long as possible, and for talking about it, the Catholic inquisitors will burn. An important point: the ideology of "Moscow-the third Rome" will not arise and the expansionism of the Moscow Principality and the Moscow Kingdom will slow down. If Ivan the Formidabled does not have time to destroy the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates and turn the North Caucasus into a frontier, the Tatars and the tribes of the North Caucasus will quantitatively and qualitatively strengthen the Ottoman Empire. +200,000 heavy cavalry and Turks will have to stop at Paris.
An interesting point: in real history, until the beginning of the 16th century, a large number of Christian slaves captured by Tatar tribes in raids on the Moldavian, Muscovite and Lithuanian principalities, the Kingdom of Poland, were exported to Europe, mainly to Italy and France. If the Turks are forced to build a capital, they will take all the slaves for themselves. The impact on European Renaissance culture is difficult to assess, but there will be changes. Minus the domestic servants, the concubine, the rowers on the galleys, the workers in the manufactories. The demand for slaves from the Turks will increase the raids. Before Ivan the Formidableo Moscow was experiencing a period of instability. The Turkish-Tatar army can completely devastate the Moscow principality and turn it into a vassal. No battle of Molodi, no Cossack raids on the Turks. Perhaps Paris is too optimistic. The fate of Christian Europe will be decided in the battle of Edinburgh!
P. S. I believe that soon after the transfer, sailors and scientists-monks will quickly determine the region where Arcadia is located. Starry sky + map of Piri-Reis or rather the original sources of the Turkish admiral.
P. S. S. It seems impossible to explore the west coast so slowly. The Phoenicians had rounded Africa, the Vikings had discovered America, the Irish had sailed to Iceland, and the Russians had explored North Asia in more primitive ships. Driving along the coast is very simple.
P. S. S. S. Chinese / Japanese contact: from the Asian coast to the northeast, to the coast of America, passes the Japanese current (Kuroshio). Japanese fishermen know that round glass floats, torn from their nets by storms, are often found on the Aleutian Islands and the northwest coast of the United States. There are also some cases of finds of objects of Chinese and Japanese production — coins, figurines and even weapons. When James Cook, among the first Europeans, appeared in 1778 off the northwestern coast of the American continent, he, to his great surprise, saw many ancient things of East Asian origin among the local Indians.
Coincidences were found in the details of ritual clothing, headdresses and their ornamentation among the inhabitants of the Asian and American coasts of the Pacific Ocean. Very often, among the participants of transoceanic voyages from Asia to America in the era of antiquity and the early Middle Ages, the Japanese are also called. Japan is only a few thousand nautical miles from California. And with a fair wind, with the help of the powerful Kuroshio current, Japanese (as well as Chinese) sailors could intentionally or forcibly reach the American shores. Of the 60 documented cases of forced navigation of Japanese junks (data from the 19th century), at least six vessels sailed to America (between Sitka and the mouth of the Columbia River), and the other six were wrecked on reefs near the Mexican coast.
In regards to slow exploration, they did explore significant parts of (our) California and Mexico in only a couple generations, and slow(ish) exploration was partly a matter of official policy. The focus was rebuilding and consolidation far more than expansion. The entirety of the Pacific coast is something similar to the coast of Africa, which the Kingdom of Portugal took around 70 to 80 years to explore. One half-destroyed city I think has done well to get this far.
In regards to slow exploration, they did explore significant parts of (our) California and Mexico in only a couple generations, and slow(ish) exploration was partly a matter of official policy. The focus was rebuilding and consolidation far more than expansion. The entirety of the Pacific coast is something similar to the coast of Africa, which the Kingdom of Portugal took around 70 to 80 years to explore. One half-destroyed city I think has done well to get this far.
From Lisbon to the Cape of Good Hope is about 10,000 kilometers. The coast of California is about 1000 kilometers. For 70 years, the Portuguese colonized the coast of Africa, the research itself took place much faster. The Russians even sailed from Alaska to their colony in California in native kayaks and small sailing boats. Constantinople-even in decline, remains a city of transit trade. Docks, shipyards, forges, sailors. The Greeks and Italians do not need to learn as backward savages-Portuguese cartography and construction of modern (at that time) ships. The Greeks can't help but come across Chinese and Japanese ships and Asian artifacts. So there will be a question of where exactly China is and how to start trading. A few shebeks or felucques will describe the west coast in 10 years at most. Well, Konstantin doesn't care about geography. How can he forbid traders and missionaries to swim? Mercenaries and adventurers who are more bandits and pirates than soldiers? China is near, let's go!
This sounds like you're implying that there are East Asian ships and artifacts off the coast of Western America... which there aren't, at all. People tend to forget how freaking massive the Pacific is, the Atlantic is a small lake by comparison.
I do agree that, even without state sponsored exploration, that there would definitely be private exploration of the coast of California fairly quickly. There would be people who, much like the soldier of the last chapter, are out looking for fortune and glory, or just plain adventure.
The coast of California would be mapped out fairly quickly, much faster than 70-80 years that was mentioned earlier. How much of that would reliably trickle back to the Roman government would be up for debate though. Also how centralized that information is would greatly depend on how much the government focused on it. Information in medieval/renaissance times didn't really flow freely, and sometimes was jealousy guarded. So while individuals may have moved farther afield, the Empire itself may not really know much of where these individual Romans have gone.
This sounds like you're implying that there are East Asian ships and artifacts off the coast of Western America... which there aren't, at all. People tend to forget how freaking massive the Pacific is, the Atlantic is a small lake by comparison.
I do agree that, even without state sponsored exploration, that there would definitely be private exploration of the coast of California fairly quickly. There would be people who, much like the soldier of the last chapter, are out looking for fortune and glory, or just plain adventure.
The coast of California would be mapped out fairly quickly, much faster than 70-80 years that was mentioned earlier. How much of that would reliably trickle back to the Roman government would be up for debate though. Also how centralized that information is would greatly depend on how much the government focused on it. Information in medieval/renaissance times didn't really flow freely, and sometimes was jealousy guarded. So while individuals may have moved farther afield, the Empire itself may not really know much of where these individual Romans have gone.
in pacific northwest their are due to trading wind bring ships their often from japan and in fact their a decent amount of evidence that their used to be trading across from pacific northwest to Hokkaido island that stopped a couple thousands years ago.
An important point: the ideology of "Moscow-the third Rome" will not arise and the expansionism of the Moscow Principality and the Moscow Kingdom will slow down. If Ivan the Formidabled does not have time to destroy the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates and turn the North Caucasus into a frontier, the Tatars and the tribes of the North Caucasus will quantitatively and qualitatively strengthen the Ottoman Empire. +200,000 heavy cavalry and Turks will have to stop at Paris.
An interesting point: in real history, until the beginning of the 16th century, a large number of Christian slaves captured by Tatar tribes in raids on the Moldavian, Muscovite and Lithuanian principalities, the Kingdom of Poland, were exported to Europe, mainly to Italy and France. If the Turks are forced to build a capital, they will take all the slaves for themselves. The impact on European Renaissance culture is difficult to assess, but there will be changes. Minus the domestic servants, the concubine, the rowers on the galleys, the workers in the manufactories. The demand for slaves from the Turks will increase the raids. Before Ivan the Formidableo Moscow was experiencing a period of instability. The Turkish-Tatar army can completely devastate the Moscow principality and turn it into a vassal. No battle of Molodi, no Cossack raids on the Turks. Perhaps Paris is too optimistic. The fate of Christian Europe will be decided in the battle of Edinburgh!
Yeah. I just remembered that the leash the Ottoman's had over the Crimea might initially be looser after the event. Perhaps it will try to loosen if there are balkan revolts:
I think the manpower the Crimeans can ring to the table will increase their leverage in said relationship. The window is short though. Ottomams more reliant on slaves will control the Crimeans more than Otl if the economic insentives are present.
I do remember reading about some raiding and expansionist ambitions on the part of Crimean Khan being stifled or smothered by meddling from the Porte. If the Crimea Khan can use the higher demand of slaves than Otl to expand, away from Ottoman control or become a draw for Ghazis, there might be a big change in the black sea, and a rivalry replacing a relationship between Ottoman overlord and Crimean vassal.
If they need to fall back on European and Caucasian slaves, I could see the Crimean Khanate getting strengthed more than Otl. Probably could easily turn from ally to one a more wary relationship with the Ottomans.
Hmm if I recall correctly there were also some Tatars in the vast Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the previous polish/Lithuanian personal union that preceded it(the Lithuanian grand duchy and the Kingdom of Poland had been in personal union since 1386) as they had thrown in their lot with the grand Duchy of Lithuania back in the 14th century and there were also a lot of Cossacks, indeed the Cossacks who threatened Istanbul with their raids and sent two different Sultans fleeing from Istanbul were aligned with the commonwealth before later aligning with the Russian Czars.
Hmm if I recall correctly there were also some Tatars in the vast Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the previous polish/Lithuanian personal union that preceded it(the Lithuanian grand duchy and the Kingdom of Poland had been in personal union since 1386) as they had thrown in their lot with the grand Duchy of Lithuania back in the 14th century and there were also a lot of Cossacks, indeed the Cossacks who threatened Istanbul with their raids and sent two different Sultans fleeing from Istanbul were aligned with the commonwealth before later aligning with the Russian Czars.
Definitely should see Cossacks being courted by the Muscovite and Poland Lithunia to bloody rivals and the Khan in answer to a Porte that has to rely more on Crimea.
I believe there were many independent bands of Tatars among the Cossacks. The Baltic is going to be in for some interesting times.
It would be hilarious if sponsoring more Cossacks and Crimean khan ends up back firing on the ones who think they hold the leashes.
Yeah. I just remembered that the leash the Ottoman's had over the Crimea might initially be looser after the event. Perhaps it will try to loosen if there are balkan revolts:
I think the manpower the Crimeans can ring to the table will increase their leverage in said relationship. The window is short though. Ottomams more reliant on slaves will control the Crimeans more than Otl if the economic insentives are present.
I do remember reading about some raiding and expansionist ambitions on the part of Crimean Khan being stifled or smothered by meddling from the Porte. If the Crimea Khan can use the higher demand of slaves than Otl to expand, away from Ottoman control or become a draw for Ghazis, there might be a big change in the black sea, and a rivalry replacing a relationship between Ottoman overlord and Crimean vassal.
If they need to fall back on European and Caucasian slaves, I could see the Crimean Khanate getting strengthed more than Otl. Probably could easily turn from ally to one a more wary relationship with the Ottomans.
Note: in the Crimea in the 15th century, the Crimean Goths (Germanic tribes) and Italians continued to hold out. The Turks conquered them only in 1475.
The Crimean Tatars in this period are rather an ally of the Christians against the steppe Tatar tribes. The problem is that the Turks are almost the only ally and trading partner for the Tatars.
There are many options. For example, in a real story, the niece of Emperor Constantine, Princess Zoya (Sophia) Palaiologos, married the tsar of Moscow, killed his son from his first marriage, and raised her own son Vasily to the throne. Vasily had problems conceiving children and when he died, Grand Duke Ivan 4 was a child (and suspected to be a bastard), which caused instability. If there is no Constantinople, then the interest in marrying a Byzantine princess will decrease. There is no dynastic crisis, the Prince of Moscow is capable and continues to unite Russia. Discrimination of Orthodox princes and boyars in Lithuania and Poland in real history led to a massive change of suzerainty to Moscow.
Tsar Ivan's mother was a Lithuanian Orthodox prince. The result is the Moscow Kingdom 50 years earlier. How is this an option?!
Important: in the 15th-16th centuries, Japan and China are not yet closed, the Japanese corsairs "wako" have not yet been destroyed by the shoguns. Junks should be washed up in California by the dozens, and Chinese and Japanese tourists will crowd in front of the palace Moreover, the Manjurs have not yet gone to China, and they have ports and ships on the northern coast of Asia. The northernmost known point is the fortress (!) on the island of Sakhalin. But their ships were clearly going further. Sooner or later they will meet with Byzantium.
There's also the point that not having Constantinople greatly weakens the Ottomans, and forces them to divert a large amount of resources and money to reestablish a city where it once stood..
The politics of Moscow, Sweden and Poland-Lithuania could get weird just on their own, at one point I think there were royals in both Poland and Moscow who had claims on all three thrones and with the Kazan and Crimean Tatar hordes allying with one side or another depending of how the politics of the times though I think at one point Moscow managed to piss off both hordes so badly they teamed up with Poland-Lithuania to take on Moscow.
There's also the point that not having Constantinople greatly weakens the Ottomans, and forces them to divert a large amount of resources and money to reestablish a city where it once stood..
This is the strongest change. In reality, the preferential tax policy of the Turks ensured them the loyalty of Christian commoners and small feudal lords. If the Turks raise taxes... In short, the Ottoman Empire is smaller and weaker.
Regarding China & Japan, baring isolated incidents/ships, I think you guys are being a little unrealistic.
Ships go where money and trade are and there's already plenty of it in Asia and Indonesia. Contact will be initiated by the Romans, either via Roman ships or Romans tagging along on European ships, not the other way around.
Hey, if a bunch of islanders can sail small boats using only the stars and memory, then Some Roman boys lost at sea island hopping before finding Asia and vice versa. And yeah, isolated ships have ended up on the west coast, with local tribes collecting metal tools from the wrecks and taking in survivors. With that in mind who's to say a Japanese or Chinese ship doesn't wash ashore in roman lands and its crew recovered and given shelter.
Just regular finds of ships and the testimony of the surviving Chinese and Japanese will clarify the location of the Arcadia and begin attempts to reach China. And there are contacts with the Portuguese and Spaniards. The first Europeans to reach Japan were the Portuguese. In 1543, their boat drifted in a storm on the island of Tanegashima, Satsuma Province, in the south of the Japanese archipelago. They introduced the islanders to firearms, exchanging them for silver and goods.
P. S. The reason for the long-distance travel of the Byzantines is the need for gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, incense, and sacred oils for temples. Against the background of the transfer, the needs of religion will be paramount. And if precious metals, stones and pearls can be found in Arcadia, then sacred oils and incense are only found in the Old World. Are we east of China?! Great! Myrrh and frankincense oils were brought in quickly!
I find it doubtful that there will be much contact yet. The article posted previously says that there is evidence of just under 200 crashes over a time span of 1200 years. There's no guarantee that they would arrive often enough or in large enough numbers to gain Roman attention. Roman control of its "Territory" is pretty light outside of Constantinople and the immediate vicinity. Any Japanese or Chinese survivors are far more likely to be found by the natives, and they won't necessarily hand them over to the Romans. I also find it doubtful that outside of shipwrecks, any Chinese or Japanese ships will arrive. The Pacific is massive, and Japan and China aren't really in the business of traveling thousands of miles of oceans. The Polynesians, whose business that was, never seemed to arrive in North America either.
Remember, we're talking about the Romans here. It's not a maritime culture. They are specifically described in this story as not wanting to sail east. They don't even have vessels good enough for ocean travel. Coastal voyages are about the best they can do, and without ports, that's going to be more difficult for the Romans than a maritime nation like say Portugal.
They did, around 1200 CE according to some claims (ref).
Or, at least, that there was contact - it could have been polynesians reaching North America or native Americans reaching Polynesia.
They did, around 1200 CE according to some claims (ref).
Or, at least, that there was contact - it could have been polynesians reaching North America or native Americans reaching Polynesia.
I was not aware of that. Still, this is recent evidence and the article specifically talks about it like a claim and theory, not necessarily fact. And even then, that was about 300 years before this time, and could've been a short encounter that was eventually forgotten, like the Nordic expeditions to North America.
Edit: Also, the article also says that the Native Americans in question were from around Ecuador, so South America. That's still a long way from where the Romans are.
12 junks discovered off the coast of North America in the 19th century. This is not much, but it is only the discovered junks, the records of which were in the archives. Do not forget, until the middle of the 19th century, European colonies occupied a small part of the coast. It is safe to say that there were many more junks. In addition, the 19th century is a period of decline in maritime shipbuilding and navigation in Asia. In the first half of the 19th century, all Asian countries were isolated. In the 15th century, the giant Chinese fleets have just stopped sailing, the Japanese corsairs "wako" have not yet been exterminated and are raiding everyone around, the Korean fleet will soon give birth to ironclads, the Mandjurs have not yet left to conquer China and are sailing off the east coast of Asia.
The Greeks and Italians are the most maritime nations of the Mediterranean. The Portuguese at the beginning of the development of Africa did not even know how to build ocean ships and draw maps. Byzantium has the best starting position. A lot of adventurer warriors who only know how to fight(reminds me of the end of the Reconquista, right!?) and who do not seek a peaceful life. Ships and shipyards. The coast along which it is easy and convenient to sail. Only the will of Constantine can explain the absence of a massive attack by the condottieri on the Indian states.
You do not causally cross the pacific. BTW, Hawaii isnt going to be a useful stop-over. It happens to be located in one of the worst locations for that: Inside the middle of the Subtropical North Pacific Gyro. This means the fast trade winds are blowing pretty far south and north of it and only towards Asia, dropping you off just about at the location of the Phillipines.
Which BTW is why Spain annex them to begin with: The Trade Winds dropped you off there, letting you use it as a base to resupply and then go and visit chinese ports. You could then go back to them, resupply once more loaded with goods from china, and take the tradewinds all the way back to Mexico. Here, expect them to be a vital point to stop for the Romans for the same reason.
Expect this time, we might see people from Mexico trying to make such voyages to trade with China.
Moreover, the Manjurs have not yet gone to China, and they have ports and ships on the northern coast of Asia. The northernmost known point is the fortress (!) on the island of Sakhalin. But their ships were clearly going further. Sooner or later they will meet with Byzantium.
