Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

Heh. The interlude talks about how the last Romans who saw Europe with their own eyes are dying off, and Arcadia is the home of the next generation...

Very next update, Europe come crashing into Arcadia with a vengeance.
 
Hmmm, I didnt know cultural genocide was a thing. I though the groups around Constantinople found this new culture more by choice then anything, but perhaps I misread that.

I look forward to seeing the changes, an empire in the Caribbean will still occur, and probably South America I imagine, but who can say.

I absolutely love this story, the religious changes it could cause is truly exciting in a story.

Edit: by the way, I assume it's not the religion part, but why is it cultural genocide? They are even speaking their language within the city of Constantinople it seems, so it seems like their culture is about as alive as it could be, excepting the fact that they aren't semi nomadic, but transitions like that tend to happen naturally as far as I am aware, since it's not very effective in terms of resource production.
 
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Why is everyone so convinced Constantinople is going to have any sort of serious influence on the Caribbean? People keep bringing it up here and on AH.com and it just baffles me. The logistics and timing just don't work.
 
As I said on AH.com:

I say it could be called cultural genocide. In some cases, it will very clearly be Roman culture running roughshod over the natives and absorbing them. It is pretty indisputable that the Romans, even if they tacitly allow existing languages and the like, are very clear on 'you need to be Christian and I'd prefer if you speak Greek'. One could also argue it isn't cultural genocide using the fact that the Romans aren't going to be forcing people to give up everything other than needing to be Christian as a starting point.

I'm going to acknowledge all viewpoints here, and there is a solid argument to be made that what they're doing is cultural genocide in the name of integration.
 
Hmmm, the Spanish being more invested in the Caribbean and its various plantations has interesting (and very unpleasant) implications.
 
As I said on AH.com:

I say it could be called cultural genocide. In some cases, it will very clearly be Roman culture running roughshod over the natives and absorbing them. It is pretty indisputable that the Romans, even if they tacitly allow existing languages and the like, are very clear on 'you need to be Christian and I'd prefer if you speak Greek'. One could also argue it isn't cultural genocide using the fact that the Romans aren't going to be forcing people to give up everything other than needing to be Christian as a starting point.

I'm going to acknowledge all viewpoints here, and there is a solid argument to be made that what they're doing is cultural genocide in the name of integration.
That said, the Roman style of cultural assimilation is a substantial and measurable improvement over the methods historically used by the rest of Europe. Pre-Christ Rome's methodology of telling conquered peoples that as long as they obey Roman law and pay their taxes on time they can do whatever was a key component to Rome's success, adding 'and at least pretend to be Christian in public' doesn't really change much. Especially under these specific circumstances where the Romans have some pretty convincing evidence that their God is real enough to pick an entire city up and plonk it down on the other side of the planet to save it from heretical invaders, which is a pretty convincing reason to convert by any metric.
(Incidentally, have the Romans figured out where they are yet? I believe they should have sufficient knowledge of astronomy to determine approximately where they are compared to where they were, but I'm not certain.)


So yes, while what the Romans have done\are doing to the local native populations could be argued to be cultural genocide, it is a very inoffensive form of such, and substantially better than the native populations could expect from literally anyone else.

Hmmm, the Spanish being more invested in the Caribbean and its various plantations has interesting (and very unpleasant) implications.
There's going to be a lot of dead Africans in the Caribbean, even more than OTL, I reckon.

With a much stronger native presence on the Central American mainland and Cortes' Wild Ride presumably going to faceplant spectacularly, I imagine the Caribbean islands will be an even more exciting place, as they will be much easier to colonize than Central America and thus more valuable.


The knock-on effect on the Transatlantic Slave Trade that this will have will be interesting, and also probably horrifying, because it's the Transatlantic Slave Trade and that is always horrifying no matter what happens.
 
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Spain will most likely fortify the heck out of Havana and Santiago on Cuba. Cuba will most likely be the Crown Jewel to which most of the Spanish colonists will be sent to settle into.
 
There isn't much Constantanople can do to prevent the Spanish from taking Luisiana and the Southern/Central US that the Spanish and French did historically. Without California and Mexico we'd likely see more Spanish settlement/development of the region than historically, contesting the Continental US with England and France.

And if the Spanish fail to topple the Incas, we'd likely see the Spanish more actively competing with the Portuguese for territory on the Atlantic coast.
 
Spain will most likely fortify the heck out of Havana and Santiago on Cuba. Cuba will most likely be the Crown Jewel to which most of the Spanish colonists will be sent to settle into.
And with the difficulty of colonizing the Central American mainland Cuba could potentially become the place for trade, doubly so with the Rockies making land travel from Constantinople to the east coast rather difficult. The Romans are likely going to want to trade with at least some parts of Europe, and with the Rockies in the way the easiest trade route to Europe would be to sail down the coast to Mexico, cross the land there and then sail up to Cuba and on to Europe.

I wonder if the Romans will decide to cut a canal somewhere through Central America before someone else builds the Panama Canal, depends on too many uncertain future factors to be able to predict.


There isn't much Constantanople can do to prevent the Spanish from taking Luisiana and the Southern/Central US that the Spanish and French did historically. Without California and Mexico we'd likely see more Spanish settlement/development of the region than historically, contesting the Continental US with England and France.

And if the Spanish fail to topple the Incas, we'd likely see the Spanish more actively competing with the Portuguese for territory on the Atlantic coast.
Yeah, without being able to walk all over Central America and potentially much of South America as well, North America will be much more contested than it was in OTL as it will be the only part of the New World that can be easily conquered, thanks to the Rockies serving as a barrier to Roman influence.

The Portuguese for example aren't going to be happy with the Treaty of Tordesillas they signed back in 1494 when it turns out that the Castillan hemisphere claimed all the easier to settle northern lands and left the Portuguese to deal with a large and organized Incan Empire.


Eastern Brazil should still be fine though, the Incas didn't cover enough land for too much Roman influence to have reached all of Brazil by the time the Portuguese get their empire on.
 
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The Portuguese for example aren't going to be happy with the Treaty of Tordesillas they signed back in 1494 when it turns out that the Castillan hemisphere claimed all the easier to settle northern lands and left the Portuguese to deal with a large and organized Incan Empire.

Eastern Brazil should still be fine though, the Incas didn't cover enough land for too much Roman influence to have reached all of Brazil by the time the Portuguese get their empire on.

These two statements seem to be somewhat contradictory, Portugal never really moved into former Incan territory, that was all Spain.

 
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These two statements seem to be somewhat contradictory, Portugal never really moved into former Incan territory, that was all Spain.

That was because Spain got Central America, which allowed them to project their power along the west coast via ships.

Without Central America under Spanish control the only way to get to the west coast is to sail around the bottom of South America, which IIRC is something of an ordeal, so the Spanish won't be able to claim the west coast the way they did OTL.


The Incas also maintained some pretty extensive trade routes, some of which went into Brazil, which if nothing else should mean that the natives in Brazil have at least already been exposed to Roman diseases, which will impede Portuguese ambitions far more than the natives in the relatively isolated eastern United States area.
 
YES!

FINALLY! THE EVENT EVERYBODY IS WAITING FOR IS HERE!

I'M SO EXCITED FOR WHAT'S COMING UP NEXT!

Now I just have to wait again for many months for the updates...

:V
 
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YES!

FINALLY! THE EVENT EVERYBODY IS WAITING FOR IS HERE!

I'M SO EXCITED FOR WHAT'S COMING UP NEXT!

Now I just have to wait again for many months for the updates...

:V

Don't worry, we, the conspiracy to frustrate you, will be sure to regularly make posts like "So is this still alive?" in order to get your hopes up!

But seriously it is good to see this thing is still alive, not least because, once you look away from the starting premise, it is one of the most realistic TLs around. The societies feel like functional societies populated by human beings.
 
But seriously it is good to see this thing is still alive, not least because, once you look away from the starting premise, it is one of the most realistic TLs around. The societies feel like functional societies populated by human beings.

I guess you can't rush quality, huh?

:cool:
 
Portugal didnt care about Brasil until they found gold. They could as easily settle the cape or Australia if they care. Their whole endgame was steering trade to Lisbon from the orient, which was more profitable than the Americas.

Also I dont see Cortez failing to conquer Mexico, it was his charisma and the hate the natives had against the Aztecs that won the war, not superior european equipment.

The only think i dont see happening is a repeat of the conquest of the incan empire, or atleast how it got conquered.
 
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Portugal didnt care about Brasil until they found gold. They could as easily settle the cape or Australia if they care. Their whole endgame was steering trade to Lisbon, which was more profitable than the Americas.

Also I dont see Cortez failing to conquer Mexico, it was his charisma and the hate the natives had against the Aztecs that won the war, not superior european equipment.

The only think i dont see happening is a repeat of the conquest of the incan empire, or atleast how it got conquered.
Why would the natives ally with him? They have better options they're more familiar with here.
 
I'll be frank:

The various Aztec tributaries have been at war with the Aztec, off and on, basically since Demetrios showed up. They've been fighting the 'good fight' if you will, for years now. Not only are they going to be more leery of random people showing up to 'hey hey, we'll help you out here', the Aztec are also far and away more prepared for actual warfare at this point. The meme about 'Cortes is a messenger of our god/an actual god' is just that, a meme, but the fact remains that the Aztec are not going to make the mistakes they did OTL. This alone makes it harder for the Spanish to win.

This is not touching on the fact that Cortes is not the most stable individual, and is a gloryhound to an extreme. The Romans are going to throw any calculus he may have made out of whack.
 
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They didnt think that Cortez was a god and he only got invited to their city after 8 months of battles against cortez and his native alies.

Heck, the spanish even had to fight the taxclans to prove their strenght first before they joined him.
 
As far as things go in Central America/Southern Mexico, I think the Spanish are unlikely to get much at this point. The Aztecs' enemies have a much more friendly alternative already in the area, and surely Demetrios and company would have been working on local relations by now. As far as the Portugese are concerned, there may now be a reason to invest more heavily in the New World now, with potential Roman trade.

I don't quite see the point of the concept of cultural genocide, it seems very common in history to me. In the British Isles alone there are probably more than a dozen good examples, what with the plethora of invasions and resettlement.
 
The entire point behind the Spanish conquest/colonization of the Americas is to find trade routes to Asia; they want, they need, a port on the Pacific coast to compete with the Portuguese. Relying on Roman ports on the Pacific will rankle their pride and, more importantly, cut into their profit margins.

If Cortes doesn't carve out a slice of the Americas and set up a port on the Pacific coast, then someone else will. The Spanish will keep trying, throwing money and bodies at it until they eventually succeed.
 
Which...is why I said that was a meme? Historical meme, granted, but still a meme?

Look: I've plotted this out quite thoroughly, and researched the hell out of it. I'm not going into this without knowing what I'm doing. And, to be completely frank, even if I hadn't, I don't have much interest in validating Cortes again in this timeline like he was OTL. The man was an asshole and having him faceplant is karmic justice as much as anything.

I'm not going to say the natives will win all the time, or that the Spanish won't eventually knock a way in. But Cortes, in specific, is not in for fun times.
 
Cortes ultimately was a insanely lucky renegade what else can you say about a man who had a army sent after him to arrest him which he somehow defeated and convinced to join him instead.

Seeing him fail especially if said failure results in his arrest and brought back for trial would be pleasant.
 
Sure it is your story and it is a roman isot. It is gonna be biased against their rivals by default.

But my main point is that I dont see such a big divergence to change much or anything and to be fair to you it is first chaper of this arc so things can change.


And to be fair to cortez, all big conquerors are assoles and crasy.
 
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