We've all been partying on Dr. Ibis' yacht recently while Chaucer's over there in his rowboat.
Yeh not to dismiss the hell that stockpile well go through due to his loyalty getting abused and Powers gaining hold over the foot along with how much were probably gonna get fucked by them in the future.

But we really shouldnt ignore the consequences of having one core members feeling like the team abandoned one of the people he cares about.

Remember The Slayers which was chaucers old team all freaking died so failing to save the fiancee of his old teammate is gonna cause massive problems. Like I dont thibk chaucer will do it but it wouldnt be suprising for letting hiver die be used as a lever for chaucer to betray JU
 
Let's not go too far and say Chaucer is going to betray Justice Unlimited over failing to save Hiver. He would be disappointed by a lot, likely even angry, but betrayal would be extreme.
 
Do we have hard evidence that Hiver would die if we didn't do this?

Maddie wouldn't have died if we hadn't done her mission, Petit Prince would have just recruited her. Maybe that could have lead to a Zuko style face turn later on had we played our cards right.
 
Do we have hard evidence that Hiver would die if we didn't do this?

Maddie wouldn't have died if we hadn't done her mission, Petit Prince would have just recruited her. Maybe that could have lead to a Zuko style face turn later on had we played our cards right.
I mean, do you think Wonderland criminals would let the New Dawn heroes live or perhaps not torture them to death? Do you think APL won't strap Stockpile on a chair and use him to death like they did Justiciar? Maddie would not have died, but if you ask me, she would've turn to something worse, a living puppet under the whims of an insane man-child. With how hard Bitterman's been emphasizing on consequences, it's hard for me to imagine why he'd go the softball approach. Heck Chaucer certainly believes he's headed towards his death, and I don't have reason to disbelieve him. The fact that he even sent Chaucer a message as well makes me think he's planning to do something drastic and turn, which I don't know why Powers, let alone Scarlet Maturity, would tolerate that.
 
...I don't like this. But we need to both keep the Wonderland prisoners down, we need Stockpile's cash, we need to secure the Ladder's Foot, Wolong assisting with Prometheus would help us make more powerful new Heroes, and we can't do everything.

Like Leizi said. We can't save everyone.
 
I believe it was stated in the update itself. Chaucer thinks Hiver is certain he's going to die. It's likely too, since it'll be an ambush with Scarlet Maturity and once they find out Hiver leaked us info, his head is going to roll.
Yeh honestly its amazing that we got rhys with his shapeshifting power. Since Id let us pull of a counter ambush along with Swans Destructive powers.

BTW once we learn how SM powers actually work wed hopefully be able to make a parahuman with powers suitable to Killing him. Dont how we can get anti-regen powers at minimum but hopefully new dawn and apiary has something to let us make an Anti SM Hero.

As for stockpile apart from being used like a rag by Powers and his shithead superiors in trying to keep Global Justice afloat. Theres a chance like with Mona hed break and become a Mad Scientist with grudge against JU do us not helping him at his most desperate. Algernon may have serious side effect but weve seen how bullshit they are if they go all in becoming Perfect for a Moment instead of mediocre for a lifetime.

Id still go with saving Hiver instead of stockpile. Team Unity and bonds are too important for me to damage right now when were still rebuilding and with shaky foundation.

Edit:
...I don't like this. But we need to both keep the Wonderland prisoners down, we need Stockpile's cash, we need to secure the Ladder's Foot, Wolong assisting with Prometheus would help us make more powerful new Heroes, and we can't do everything.

Like Leizi said. We can't save everyone.

Eh stockpiles cash is useful but we have other ways to get money like Hero Worship line atleast get us a sponsor with hold over the biggest megacorp in the world, like how Uiarra sublty took care of JU main finances. So really the money is just a minor short term benefit compared to the other benefits of helping stockpile.
 
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I have to commend Bitterman for making this feel like the hardest fucking choice in the world. I love you and hate you in equal measure for this (lovingly).
 
*Deep breath* Into the brink we go.....
[X] Plan: Grand Alliance
[X] Plan: Heart & Numbers
 
Are they dead if we don't help them?

Do we have hard evidence that Hiver would die if we didn't do this?

Without answering, I'll summarize what you know. Keep in mind, none of this is certain, but what your intelligence team can tell after a critic success:

1) Hiver think's he's going to die. Or, at least, Chaucer believes that what Hiver thinks and that Hiver thinks it's inevitable for some reason.

2) New Dawn is dangling by a thread. The Wonderland villains appear to be organizing and could easily crush New Dawn if they do.

3) The Americans want to give up on Global Justice. To stop that you're going to have to give them something on the level of Project Prometheus or the EXCEED armor. Stockpile is a true believer and will do everything he can to save Global Justice. You have to convince him if your sincerity too in order to recruit him.

Plus... the Seasons are a trap. We know it's a trap. Going to them is falling into the trap

Lady Leizi also isn't stupid. If she knows it's a trap, she'll plan for it like a trap.

We've all been partying on Dr. Ibis' yacht recently while Chaucer's over there in his rowboat

It's funny because it was suppose to be the opposite! But Dr. Ibis was too much fun to write!

how much will our maximum improve?

Up to 8 metahumans.

I have to commend Bitterman for making this feel like the hardest fucking choice in the world. I love you and hate you in equal measure for this (lovingly).

❤️
 
3) The Americans want to give up on Global Justice. To stop that you're going to have to give them something on the level of Project Prometheus or the EXCEED armor. Stockpile is a true believer and will do everything he can to save Global Justice. You have to convince him if your sincerity too in order to recruit him.
If we recruit Stockpile, do we absorb Global Justice or do they keep existing as an independent, US-sponsored entity?
 
Depends how it plays out. The latter will be trickier than the former.
Clawing GJ out of the US Gov's hands is gonna be trickier than I imagined it seems. Ideally, I wouldn't want to give the US Gov anything at all, but we may end up needing to give something away.

Definitely not Project Prometheus though. The ability to make new specific metahumans at will is way too much power to give to anyone, and while this tech is eventually going to be revealed to the public, I'd rather we keep our monopoly on it, especially since the dangers of Resonance is still largely unknown.

I guess the alternative is helping them with the bits of the EXCEED armor that GJ has never been able to crack the principles of. We have EXCEED-BEYOND waiting for us so it shouldn't hurt too much, though, I imagine having both EXCEED and EXCEED-BEYOND has some future synergy.
 
I guess the alternative is helping them with the bits of the EXCEED armor that GJ has never been able to crack the principles of. We have EXCEED-BEYOND waiting for us so it shouldn't hurt too much, though, I imagine having both EXCEED and EXCEED-BEYOND has some future synergy.
I don't think you're fully appreciating everything that entails, but I tend to say too much so I'll leave it at that.

What I wanted to get across is that the GJ mission isn't just a matter of recruiting Stockpile or propping up GJ. You'll have to get into bed with the Americans one way or another to get what you want.
 
So, looking again between all three time-limited missions and its benefits, it does seem like New Dawn have the most fruitful ones. Not only does Wolong have an ability that's not helpful with planning and strategizing as well as a force multiplier, but also will also help us synergize with abilities, thus giving us the potential of making stronger future heroes. Honestly, it's so good that I honestly feel like there might be big stipulations that may come from doing this. To elaborate more on what I mean, compare this mission to, say, Global Justice's, whose drawback is immediately obvious, the US government behind the hero group seeking to exploit its assets for profit, and who we might need to appease as much as we don't want to in order for a "greater evil" to not take over. Meanwhile
the most immediate drawback I'm seeing from New Dawn is the amount of AP we're required to spend in order to continue their questline, and the risk that comes from their mission, which we're still getting their cooperation for those anyways, so it mitigates said risk. This honestly makes me think that there're probably lots of stuff that's not immediately obvious and has made me a believer of the theory that Wolong might react negatively towards Project Prometheus, especially once he finds out how we got Novalight's DNA. This also has led me to conclude that in order to get Wolong's cooperation, we really need to help him out with his shit first and butter him up before we're allowed to even consider introducing him to the Project. Hence, I've concluded that New Dawn's benefits all really long term and you really have to work hard to get the really good ones.

I'll note that this is just Wolong; we haven't heard anything about what's going on with Arc yet, who Bitterman seemed to have implied earlier that something's going on with. Additionally, New Dawn's plotline is intertwined with Wonderland, which is very important in containing metahuman criminals; beyond that however, if my suspicions are correct, is the Valkyrie plotline, one of the four Voices, who I've speculated earlier to be one of keys to getting to the Leviathan mystery, the biggest benefit of them all. To sum up how I feel about this, it's so so so very good that it's making me believe that there are severe drawbacks we're not seeing yet.

As I've brought up Global Justice earlier, I'll continue their subject here. Global Justice's immediate obvious is Stockpile, a young Algernon-type who has yet to reach his potential, along with the immediate income. He is reported to severely loyal to a fault, thus his questline requires cajoling him to joining us while keeping the balance of keeping AGL around while not giving them too much. Hearing all that admittedly made me hesitate from all the loops I have to go through in order to get to this kid, yet it is still worth it. As an Algernon who has yet to choose a specialization as well as a possessor of remnants of EXCEED, he has a lot of potential that, placed in the right hands and handled right, which is another balancing act btw, could help us immensely. Should we have him enter into our ranks, not only do we get usual benefits of a hero: additional AP and increase to overall global stats, we also essentially rescue him from an organization that is gonna abuse him anyways. He is a long term invested almost in the same par as New Dawn whose skills may be essential into unlocking many mysteries of Horizon, including Leviathan, just from his potential as an Algernon. Moreover, by taking this mission, we put a temporary stopgap to a powergrab from Dominion and Osanyin. Gaining access to Foot of the Ladder may allow us an unobstructed entrance to our currently unnamed base and probably a good income from a rich people district (this is speculative).

Now finally for Four Seasons, who compared to New Dawn's and Global Justice's, their benefits are more short term. Should we succeed in finishing this quest, we gain immediate benefit of a hero from Hiver, intel on both Powers and Scarlet Maturity, and a portion of OID. Out of all these, intel on Scarlet Maturity is seemingly the most fruitful. To me, that is essentially a potential shortcut to the mysteries of Dominion since from all the info we know atm, Scarlet Maturity is easily the biggest wall towards that plotline. It's still not gonna be easy since SM has been around the block for a while and isn't a top "hero" (emphasis) for nothing, but that intel has the potential of dropping his difficulty down a few pegs. Moreover, we deny them control of OID, which I'll remind people is where Dr. Ibis' lab is and by gaining complete control over that territory, we gain both income and a base that'll give us more potential Ambosia benefits and firepower from his experiments, including Valiant Kabuto. We also give Chaucer a small moment of reprieve with Hiver, which sounds pretty good to me.

Now I'll admit even with all that, that still seems pale in comparison to both New Dawn and Global Justice's benefits. As much as Hiver is a nice dude, he's overall just a beatstick (at least from what we've heard) compared to Wolong's power multiplier and Ambrosia amplifier, and Stockpile's endless potential and EXCEED. Moreover, while Scarlet Maturity is a threat, he's only a really big threat in a micro-level as far as we know and is only mainly involved in the Dominion/Powers plotline as far as we know. Needed to repeat that for emphasis. So, allow me to walk you through my thought process of why I voted for the plan Scarlet Fraud.

So if you've been following me so far, you know that I've been calling New Dawn "really really good in the long term", while Four Seasons is "simply good in short term". 'So EternalObserver, if you know New Dawn is that good, why not vote for it?' Well frankly part of that is cause AP hell sucks, and Scarlet Fraud is the best counteract against that: it gives us 7 AP, hence more room to breathe potentially, discounting the consequences of New Dawn's demise. It allows us easier success against all the missions so far, including potential fixes that may come from Wonderland: for example, with 7 AP, we could take Rakeem's mission (2), Demonz Flame (1), Mahou Shoujo (1), Wonderland (1-3), and if there's room left, either Meet the Rookies (1) or Stockpile follow-up, along Global Action of recruitment (we'd have 2 by this time because Apiary). Then the turn after that, we could grab Hero Worship along with all the follow-up questline that precedes the previous turn as well as follow-up recruitment to Stockpile, in addition to welcoming more candidates to the team. From there, I blank out due to lack of info, and that's probably for the best since something will inevitably go wrong with my planning frankly due to unforeseen variables that Bitterman has yet to introduce, as well as me only accounting for what we have now. And yet I think we could still overcome this due to easy breathing room. It's also why I voted for Plan Heroism: even if it only gives us 1 AP now, it'll at least give us another next turn even if we come up short. Moreover, I have a feeling leaving SM and Four Seasons (sans Hiver) alone with OID gives repercussions similar to how I called out how Wonderland questlines may be affected from New Dawn's demise. I really want to get Ibis's base frankly, and the Demon Flamez questline looks enticing from just imagining how Dr. Rhodes may potentially interact with future recruits there (Sparksurfer and Jorōgumo), so the idea that a-hole Scarlet Maturity might affect and limit our ability to interfere with OID tbh really rubs me the wrong way. This is all speculative so I'm just spouting hot air at this point, but I don't wanna "fuck around and find out" what could and could not happen to those questlines. Finally, I think we could handle Ambrosia fine even without Wolong, and personally I find the guessing game of Ambrosia pretty fun. Wolong's ability to help with synergy comes from his limited precog, and while yes, it helps with planning, when it comes to this part of the gameplay, I feel like I enjoy playing blind for this part in particular.

So to sum it all up, yes Four Season's pretty short term, but I personally think it's a pretty good short term. Long term benefits are really good, but to get there, we have to go through a bunch of hoops first, and sometimes those one-time use weapons could help a lot.

Anyways, that's all from me. PS this took me 4 hours to type. I suck at articulating words. Ran out of gas by the end. Bleaerrefgh
 
Even if we ultimately aren't willing to ally with the Americans, getting a claim on the Foot of the Ladder early on is still valuable as there's no doubt Dominion will try for territory grabs near our base.

I won't repeat myself after this because I think I've been more than clear, but there is no mitigating what will happen. The world-state is going change after any of these missions expires. I already have plans for all three. Please don't think doing a mission now or in the future means ducking or reducing the consequences.
I have a suggestion for mission pairs of that type: if a mission is meant to pick up loose threads from another mission expiring or failing, this can be made clearer so players don't try to take both at the same time (if neither are expiring).

So something like:
The Dragon of the New Dawn
[...]
Seid ihr das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger
[...]
(Obsoleted by successful completion of The Dragon of the New Dawn)

That is, if it actually is obsoleted by that other mission.
 
Even if we ultimately aren't willing to ally with the Americans, getting a claim on the Foot of the Ladder early on is still valuable as there's no doubt Dominion will try for territory grabs near our base.


I have a suggestion for mission pairs of that type: if a mission is meant to pick up loose threads from another mission expiring or failing, this can be made clearer so players don't try to take both at the same time (if neither are expiring).

So something like:
The Dragon of the New Dawn
[...]
Seid ihr das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger
[...]
(Obsoleted by successful completion of The Dragon of the New Dawn)

That is, if it actually is obsoleted by that other mission.
I'm gonna do that in the future! That's just not what's going to happen in this instance. The two interact less than people seem to assume.
 
I don't think you're fully appreciating everything that entails, but I tend to say too much so I'll leave it at that.

What I wanted to get across is that the GJ mission isn't just a matter of recruiting Stockpile or propping up GJ. You'll have to get into bed with the Americans one way or another to get what you want.
The US pulling the funding on Global Justice is bad, but getting into costly political negotiations over trying to save someone puts a bad taste in my mouth.

[X] Plan: Heart & Numbers
 
Adhoc vote count started by Bitterman on Aug 23, 2024 at 12:32 PM, finished with 72 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Grand Alliance
    -[X] Mission 1: Drove Through Ghosts to Get Here (HIT 9, ESP 7, REP 5, OP 11)
    -[X] Mission 2: The Dragon of the New Dawn (ESP 4, REP 5, OP 3)
    -[X] Mission 3: Olympus Has Fallen (ESP 4, REP 6, OP 4)
    -[X] Lady Leizi: A Face that Toils So Close to Stones is Already Stone Itself (REPUTATION)
    -[X] Black Swan: Water-Cooler Talk (Chaucer)
    -[X] Menagerie Witch: Madeline-Bowl LVIII
    -[X] Handyman: Who Doesn't Love a Power Testing Scene?
    -[X] Global: A Spoonful of Sugar (John Henry Rhodes)
    -[X] Total AP: 5
    -[X] Total HERO: HIT 9, ESP 15, REP 16, OP 18
    [X] Plan: Heart & Numbers
    -[X] [MISSION 1] The Dragon of the New Dawn AP 2, ESPIONAGE 4, REPUTATION 5, OPERATIONS 3
    -[X] [MISSION 2] Who's Left Behind AP 2, HIT 6, ESPIONAGE 5, REPUTATION 4
    -[X] [MISSION 3] Drove Through Ghosts to Get Here AP 1, HIT 9, ESPIONAGE 7, REPUTATION 5, OPERATIONS 11
    -[X] Total AP & Hero: 5 AP, 15 Hit, Espionage 25, Reputation 14, Operations 14
    -[X] Personal Actions:
    -[X] Lady Leizi: A Face that Toils So Close to Stones is Already Stone Itself (REPUTATION)
    -[X] Black Swan You're Not My Real Dad!
    -[X] Menagerie Witch: Madeline-Bowl LVIII
    -[X] Handyman: Who Doesn't Love a Power Testing Scene?
    -[X] A Spoonful of Sugar (John Henry)
    [X] Plan: Heroism
    -[X] [MISSION 1] Olympus has Fallen (AP 2, ESPIONAGE 4, REPUTATION 6, OPERATIONS 4)
    -[X] [MISSION 2] Who's Left Behind AP 2, HIT 6, ESPIONAGE 5, REPUTATION 4
    -[X] [MISSION 3] Seid ihr das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger (AP 1, HIT 5, ESPIONAGE 4)
    -[X] Total AP & Hero: 5 AP, 11 Hit, Espionage 13, Reputation 10, Operations 8
    -[X] Personal Actions:
    -[X] Lady Leizi: A Face that Toils So Close to Stones is Already Stone Itself (REPUTATION)
    -[X] Black Swan You're Not My Real Dad!
    -[X] Menagerie Witch: Madeline-Bowl LVIII
    -[X] Handyman: Who Doesn't Love a Power Testing Scene?
    -[X] A Spoonful of Sugar (John Henry)
    [X] Plan: Scarlet Fraud
    -[X] Mission 1: Drove Through Ghosts to Get Here
    -[X] Mission 2: Who's Left Behind
    -[X] Mission 3: Olympus Has Fallen
    -[X] Lady Leizi: A Face that Toils So Close to Stones is Already Stone Itself (REPUTATION)
    -[X] Black Swan: Water-Cooler Talk (Chaucer)
    -[X] Menagerie Witch: Madeline-Bowl LVIII
    -[X] Handyman: Who Doesn't Love a Power Testing Scene?
    -[X] Global: A Spoonful of Sugar (John Henry Rhodes)
    -[X] Total AP: 5
    -[X] Total HERO: HIT 15, ESP 16, REP 15, OP 15

I have to say, vote this tight is not what I expected, but I'm very gratified! I guess those Back Issues this their jobs.

Also, I wanted to expressed thanks for all the engagement and discussion lately: it's what keeps me going and means a lot!
 
Stockpile aside from generally being a boy that's too good for this world, he also has vast amount of potential as an Algernon (albeit at the cost of early age dementia) and perhaps may be able to wield the EXCEED armor that Valiant Silver left behind. He is generally the big prize of picking Olympus has Fallen. With that said, even I'll admit that out of the three, this one seems like the one whose drawback is immediately obvious on first glance.

Let me put it this way, New Dawn's problems are problematic but straightforward in a sense that all we have to do are "beat the bad guys". Seems simple enough at first glance. Meanwhile for Four Season, it requires to willingly walk into a trap you knew was set for you in advance. This is slightly more complicated, but I feel like it doesn't take much brainpower to potentially outsmart your trappers now that you know the trap's existence. Traps are generally the most effective when it is yet to be known. And while sure, Four Seasons sucks now, there's a true and honest hero stuck in the middle and is about to march to his death willingly, and sometimes it's worth walking into a trap if it's to save the man's life. Meanwhile if you look at Global Justice, well, it's freaking politics in a nutshell :V. Between corporations, government, whatever they may be. There is no good vs evil here, only evil vs "lesser evil" in big quotation marks. Reminder that I'm describing what the missions are like at first glance.

Frankly I do get it. Olympus has Fallen is not merely a deal with the devil, it is a balancing act of cajoling and preventing. We have to give a reason for the US government to stay around while not giving them too much. All while convincing Stockpile to defect, and while he is a genuine boy deep in desperation, according to our Handy dandy man here:
"Look, I know that kid. He's a true believer in Global Justice, a real die-hard. He worshiped the ground they didn't let Justiciar walk on. You want him? You're gonna have to convince him that Global Justice is dead in the water and you did everything you could to save it. Long term investment is what I'm sayin'."
If we are to believe him, then this adds another factor to our balancing act. All while making a under-the-table deals with the government, whom based on what's been said about them so far, sounds real incompetent to be frank and corrupt as all hell. I perfectly understand why people don't want to deal with them. I like my politics personally, but it can be tiring and a drag for some people.

And while I'm typing this, I think I've realize what might happen to Stockpile should we not go to him. Since we know AGL is on the verge of dissolving Global Justice and is just about ready to give up on the Foot, why wouldn't they just give them away to Dominion as well should their offer be high enough? This switches the potential torturer from 'Murica to Mercenaries. Basically not only will Dominion have a chance of staking a claim on the Foot, they also potentially have a chance of gaining an Algernon asset. Heck yeah they're gonna spam that use button! Not to mention, Stockpile in his issue frankly just gives vibes of a kid with a pinned 'kick me' sign on his back in a stereotypical American high school.

Anyways, my point is if we really really want Stockpile in spite of how much government sucks here, then go right ahead. Honestly as much as it seems like it'll suck, we have to remember this is still a quest that relies a lot on dice, and we also have to remember who our MC is here, the so-called hatchet woman of Justice Unlimited. Bitterman will still make sure her skills will shine bright here.
 
Oh, btw before the vote ends.
Water-Cooler Talk (AP 0): Handyman is a friendly guy. Maybe he should get to know the people around her. (Choose to talk to Joelle Chaucer or Dr. Mammoth Ibis) (Chance of Intel depend on who is chosen)
Just found a typo. Unless Rhys is suddenly genderfluid, I don't think that's correct.
 
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