La Chanson de la Victoire (The Song of Victory): La Petite Arpenteuse (Non, SV, you are a General of France in the Napoleonic War!)

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Right.

I say we should at least TRY to save Spain. Spain being destroyed forever would not necessarily serve our best interests, frankly. Refugees, Chaos at our Border....no, I think we should at least try to stabilize the Peninsular before the Brits do.
 
Right.

I say we should at least TRY to save Spain. Spain being destroyed forever would not necessarily serve our best interests, frankly. Refugees, Chaos at our Border....no, I think we should at least try to stabilize the Peninsular before the Brits do.

Divide and rule my friend, divide and rule. What you said are short term troubles, but long term it means we have one less nation that could rival us on the continent to worry about.

Plus we are main west European land power, while Brits are sea power. When it comes to Spain they can't threaten and rival us so let wait for the Brits to do hard work for us and then roll in and take the gains.

Basically i prefer our neighborhood (Germany, Italy, Spain ) to stay divided and subservient to our interests.
 
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Divide and rule my friend, divide and rule. What you said are short term troubles, but long term it means we have one less nation that could rival us on the continent to worry about.

Plus we are main west European land power, while Brits are sea power. When it comes to Spain they can't threaten and rival us so let wait for the Brits to do hard work for us and then roll in and take the gains.

Basically i prefer our neighborhood (Germany, Italy, Spain ) to stay divided and subservient to our interests.
Divided is one thing.

An anarchic wasteland that we can never make any use of is another.

Again, we should at least TRY as long as the Brits do the same.

And besides, if we manage to re-unite Spain on our own Terms, it won't a Rival in anythingto us.
 
Still The British Empire is in a bad spot, war with the US, in the hell hole that is Spain and fighting in India, and they have been losing a lot of ships that will make all the harder for them to keep there Empire
 
The treaties seem rmarquably lenient to Prussia and Austria. No territory loss? no sister republic established? no French protectorate over nearby german lands? not even a french vote in the HRE? no Rhine border for France? Venice not freed from Austrian boots? no freeing (parts of) Poland?
We annexed the Rhine the Last war, so there is that.

Venice now firmly under French Occupation.

Napoleon has no interests (Right now at least) To go stomping through Europe and start remaking all the maps to his liking.

Not yet at least, not until his house is cleaned up.
I know Talleyrand is a statu quo ante and balance of power man, who is thinking about not getting future foes but it seems to little, even for him. At least recent Prussian and AUstrian territory gains should have been reversed and unruly lands given freedom. Unless he is banking on Prussia and Austria influance collapsing and other German/italian territories falling naturally in the French sphere of influance?
We had no territorial ambitions because we already achived them in the last war.

this was just cementing them in such a way that it won't be reveresed without a total collapse of French authority.

As for why he did not take away territory:

Simple, He's smart enough to know that, while the French Army has been almost undefeated at this point, it's exhausted, and the people of France are exhausted from war.

We don't want another revolution starting from Bread Riots.
so did we do the doctrine for Men going out of the army?Because We just won and after the spanish situation is dealt with I think our army is going to shrink. and Having the infrastructure for that set up before it happens would be really nice.
Most men who demobilize will be given a pension based on rank, that is it. It will be up to the averege soldier and officer to find their way in the world.

And if we need to call them up, well, then we know those mad lads will show right up to kick ass again.
As for the Rhine...we have enough issues on hand as is. We really cant afford to both integrate the rhineland and patch the domestic problems at the same time.
We already have Alsase and Lorrain, and parts of the Rhine itself, just not the entire Rhineland.

Give it time.
Right.

I say we should at least TRY to save Spain. Spain being destroyed forever would not necessarily serve our best interests, frankly. Refugees, Chaos at our Border....no, I think we should at least try to stabilize the Peninsular before the Brits do.
A Shattered warzone in spain is not a good thing, either for us, or the rest of Europe.
Still The British Empire is in a bad spot, war with the US, in the hell hole that is Spain and fighting in India, and they have been losing a lot of ships that will make all the harder for them to keep there Empire
indeed.

But India is almost secure. so there is that.
 
indeed.

But India is almost secure. so there is that.
They are gonna need a lot of men to hold all of India and they dont have the manpower to spare, so it might become a new Spain for them, and the army that is there right did it not got beat up badly in the other rolls before the last set of rolls?

Also with the new gold and silver coming in is the Wealth of France 12/10 are something right now?
 
They are gonna need a lot of men to hold all of India and they dont have the manpower to spare, so it might become a new Spain for them, and the army that is there right did it not got beat up badly in the other rolls before the last set of rolls?

Also with the new gold and silver coming in is the Wealth of France 12/10 are something right now?
That depends if now, after Tipu's Death, there are any forces left in India who could oppose the British. The only ones who might are the Maratha, but sadly, even if they should win, they don't have the inclination to ally and work with France like Tipu had.
 
That depends if now, after Tipu's Death, there are any forces left in India who could oppose the British. The only ones who might are the Maratha, but sadly, even if they should win, they don't have the inclination to ally and work with France like Tipu had.
We dont need them to ally or work with France, we just need them to bleed the British, and if they dont have the army to effectively hold there territory as i am assuming as they had a lot of bad rolls before the last rolls, there should be small groups of rebels poping up around there British territory in India
 
The only problem with that is with constant instability and the future rise of nationalism, there is the threat of Basque and Catalonian nationalists (populations of which live in France along the Biscay/Med coast, respectively) causing cross-border problems in the future. Aside from that, constant fighting and conflict would see a constant stream of refugees and raiding spill over the border. An example would be the cross-border raiding during the Mexican Civil War in the 1910s.

I'll admit, my history classes in regards to Spain and souther Europe weren't the best, but didn't that happen anyway in this world?

But that would allow future British influence on the Continent

It's Britain. They always will have influence on the continent. Better or worse, they have the largest empire in the word, admittedly taking some losses right about now but still.
Beside that it looks like they will have it anyway, so is it better they have pull with a fully reformed spain that's gratefully for their help or a handful of Spanish successor states that sorta hate one another and are vying for control?

I don't know, just doesn't seem like intervention is a good idea.
 
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They always will have influence on the continent. Better or worse, they have the largest empire in the word, admittedly taking some losses right about now but still.
Beside that it looks like they will have it anyway, so is it better they have pull with a fully reformed spain that's gratefully for their help
Why should they get that when WE can have that instead?
And besides, @Magoose said that Spain falling ino an anarchic hellhole is BAD, both for us and the rest of Europe. Not to mention that outside help is it's ONLY hope to regain stability ever again by now.

We have more to gain then to lose by intervening at this point. And if we don't do it now, we might lose that Chance forever.
 
Why should they get that when WE can have that instead?
And besides, @Magoose said that Spain falling ino an anarchic hellhole is BAD, both for us and the rest of Europe.

We have more to gain then to lose by intervening at this point. And if we don't do it now, we might lose that Chance forever.
The reason Spain collapsing into an Anarchic hellhole is threefold.

One, the Border with Spain will be a humanitarian nightmare, with refugees wishing to flee to the relative safety of France now that all civil and military authority is collapsing, and the only power players that wish to restore order being... Don Carlos, one division of Spanish troops, both of whom are separated...

And the Republic that just turned Madrid into a memory.

Two: Due to the Fragmenting nature of this civil war, the Spanish Peninsula is going to be a proxy war, not unlike the Great Game in Afganistan and Khazecstan in OTL between Russia and Britain. However, with it being far closer, it will be far bloodier, and more dangerous to France, and Portugal... and Britain. It is going to be an ulcer for any nation that gets involved in it.

Three: Spain collapsing will be a precedent that hasn't been seen since the Roman Empire.

A Nation dying.

That would scare the shit out of every nation.
 
The reason Spain collapsing into an Anarchic hellhole is threefold.

One, the Border with Spain will be a humanitarian nightmare, with refugees wishing to flee to the relative safety of France now that all civil and military authority is collapsing, and the only power players that wish to restore order being... Don Carlos, one division of Spanish troops, both of whom are separated...

And the Republic that just turned Madrid into a memory.

Two: Due to the Fragmenting nature of this civil war, the Spanish Peninsula is going to be a proxy war, not unlike the Great Game in Afganistan and Khazecstan in OTL between Russia and Britain. However, with it being far closer, it will be far bloodier, and more dangerous to France, and Portugal... and Britain. It is going to be an ulcer for any nation that gets involved in it.

Three: Spain collapsing will be a precedent that hasn't been seen since the Roman Empire.

A Nation dying.

That would scare the shit out of every nation.
Sure, it's not without risk. But again, at this Point, I think the potential benefits outweigh the potential costs.

If we do nothing, one of two things will happen: Either Spain dies, thus making everything worse for all of Europe...or Britain secures the Peninsular, making it even more powerful.

Both aren't good for us. So I say we should throw our hat into the ring, seeing as how Britain and Portugal will do the same. And if we can make this thing much worse for them then it is for us...
 
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If we do intervene in Spain, it might be a prudent idea to start working on how to make use of propaganda, for it is imperative that we win the hearts and minds of the Spanish people and make sure that, at worst, we are perceived as the lesser evil between us and Britain (and, at best, be perceived as protecting the Spanish people from the British "tyranny and opression"). Learning how to use propaganda is also going to help us contain the threat of Robespierre and make it much harder for him to gain traction in France again.
 
The reason Spain collapsing into an Anarchic hellhole is threefold.

One, the Border with Spain will be a humanitarian nightmare, with refugees wishing to flee to the relative safety of France now that all civil and military authority is collapsing, and the only power players that wish to restore order being... Don Carlos, one division of Spanish troops, both of whom are separated...
Also all the Nobles who could run, did so, leaving a power vaccum.
 
Also all the Nobles who could run, did so, leaving a power vaccum.
A very big power vacuum might I add… and a vacant throne that needs to be filled.

We might even have a Congress of all the European powers to figure out who's ass sits on the throne and how Europe should handle this complete clusterfuck of a crisis.
 
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A very big power vacuum might I add… and a vacant throne that needs to be filled.

We even have a Congress to figure out who's ass sits on the throne and how Europe should handle this complete clusterfuck of a crisis.
My advice is gonna be tell Tallyerand to get the best deal for us. Personally, I'd just want some land around the Pyrenees to secure our Sothern border, and otherwise, let the place rot.
 
My advice is gonna be tell Tallyerand to get the best deal for us. Personally, I'd just want some land around the Pyrenees to secure our Sothern border, and otherwise, let the place rot.
The problem is Napoleons ambition that we need to check, and the brewing international refugee crisis that may soon begin, with millions fleeing Spain for safer places, either in The Americas with their king, or to the rest of Europe. It will be a diaspora not seen since the Israelites under Rome.

but in the Jews case, they had a United empire to travel through, not a broken Europe.

Edit: There is also the fact that the nation dying will make all of Europe poorer, and those Spanish Refugees have to go somewhere.

Also Nappy would never give up a free crown.
 
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The problem is Napoleons ambition that we need to check, and the brewing international refugee crisis that may soon begin, with millions fleeing Spain for safer places, either in The Americas with their king, or to the rest of Europe. It will be a diaspora not seen since the Israelites under Rome.

but in the Jews case, they had a United empire to travel through, not a broken Europe.

Edit: There is also the fact that the nation dying will make all of Europe poorer, and those Spanish Refugees have to go somewhere.

Also Nappy would never give up a free crown.
Like I said: Intervention in Spain, with heavy emphasis on restoring Order and rebuilding the Country, is in my Opinion our best Option now.
 
I really think that we should try to abide by those statements:
DO NOT INVADE SPAIN, DO NOT HELP SPAIN AND DO NOT EVEN HINT THAT WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN SPANISH MATTERS.
Spain, as Magoose said, will be an ulcer, now there is two way for us to react:
1 Go in and inevitably offence enough Spaniard that they star a guerrilla that we may win or lose, we will have to contend with the brit (who normally will have the same problem)
2 Build up our defence in the northern mountains of Spain and let Spain fight itself (and the brit if we are lucky). Then if and only if Spain call us to take on the brit we go in and out as fast as possible.

But I know that the crown of Spain is a perfect nappy bait...............
 
my thoughts regarding Spain is that we should take the regions near our border and make each a sister republic or a Vassal
 
An ulcer is better than the open wound spain will be. I have my doubts things would collapse so badly to be compared to the jewish diaspora however.
 
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