- Location
- Leeds
[x] Sirocco
In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)
- Location
- home
I have to admit; I am feeling a little ambivalent about whether to let Kakita know about his opponent's training. On the one hand, yeah, informing Kakita might anger our host, which could have pretty bad repercussions. And even if we aren't actually seen giving that information, if Kakita shows a surprising knowledge of what skills the Matsu samurai-ko brings to the duel, we are the natural suspect for being his informant given that we have shown a certain amount of affection to Mariko.
On the other hand, we agreed with Ikoma to investigate the Crane matter, and, if both Kakita and Mariko are dead, then we lose one of our biggest leads in solving that and reaping the benefits, not only of the trade arrangements offered by the Ikoma, but also a potentially grateful Crane (if someone is mucking up their communication), and also possibly the Lion (if someone is trying to provoke them to conflict with the Crane).
Hmm...
On the other hand, we agreed with Ikoma to investigate the Crane matter, and, if both Kakita and Mariko are dead, then we lose one of our biggest leads in solving that and reaping the benefits, not only of the trade arrangements offered by the Ikoma, but also a potentially grateful Crane (if someone is mucking up their communication), and also possibly the Lion (if someone is trying to provoke them to conflict with the Crane).
Hmm...
[x] Sirocco
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I'm mostly in agreement to Sirroccos modifications to our plans, but I do not like that write in for the Wren one bit. I'll make another one, but I would like comething confirmed first:
@Maugan Ra : Can we get a Lore(Bushido) roll here, and could you then answer me this: With how focused the Lion are on Bushido, even if Compassion is not their focus, how bad is it that some among the Matsu cut their servants to wet their blades before sheathing them? Because, as far as I can tell this is pretty bad. Undermining social order bad. Heimen sending assasins against imperial figures bad. And I would like to know if my reaction is appropriate while I create a vote.
EDIT: Are heimin generaly thought to write and read?
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[X] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation:
Answer in a pained voice: "Ah. I had hoped..." Allow a pain filled sigh that has nothing with our wounds to escape.
Spend a bit of time in silence considering the hundreds of Matsu samurai stationed here. If even a small number of those hundreds held to this idea, there are dozens of injured heimin every day. Every time they draw their blades to practice katas they would end by cutting their own people. How did we miss this? Or did the other Scorpion know about it? By the Heavens this will not stand.
School your face to absolute stillness and speak formally: "This will not stand Wren-san. That I promise you. If you could, I would like a list of those heimin most often and most grievously injured since this tradition took root." This might take a while, but damn if you are going to let the Matsu keep doing this.
Answer in a pained voice: "Ah. I had hoped..." Allow a pain filled sigh that has nothing with our wounds to escape.
Spend a bit of time in silence considering the hundreds of Matsu samurai stationed here. If even a small number of those hundreds held to this idea, there are dozens of injured heimin every day. Every time they draw their blades to practice katas they would end by cutting their own people. How did we miss this? Or did the other Scorpion know about it? By the Heavens this will not stand.
School your face to absolute stillness and speak formally: "This will not stand Wren-san. That I promise you. If you could, I would like a list of those heimin most often and most grievously injured since this tradition took root." This might take a while, but damn if you are going to let the Matsu keep doing this.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
I'd like to hear the official answer on this, too, but my own understanding (from which we get my write-in)
- It is *technically* a different focus of honor, rather than being a specifically dishonorable act. They are following Honor (honoring their blades) by eschewing Compassion. Compromises like this will prevent them from getting *too* high on the honor tree, but... well, I hadn't heard this particular bit, but I didn't find it terribly surprising, what with the other things I'd heard about the Lion in general and the Matsu in particular. It may be mildly frowned on by the samurai of other families, and some of them would get downright pissed if you tried to pull that on their heimen, but... Matsu lands, Matsu rules.
To put it in perspective, I was under the impression that my response was pretty intense as compared to how Naoto's peers might be expected to react. One samurai evincing displeasure for the technically-honorable actions of another in front of a heimen is... unusual.
- Most heimen cannot read and write. Only those who have particular reason to (scribes, merchants, and so forth) learn the art.
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Well, guess we wait and see what Ra says about the Bushido roll.
Once we get that, I'll adapt the vote. What I am trying to show is not displeasure at the other samurai, but compassion for the heimin. I'll probably remove the bit about promising her this will not stand, but put in a bit about arrangeing a meeting with her and a scribe, so the list can be made. I do not want to ask her for a list of the relevant Matsu who do those things so as not to strain her loyalty(as she is rather new to the whole thing). After all, the only thing she told us that way are the saying the Matsu repeat aloud before their heimen, and which heimen were hurt.
Once we get that, I'll adapt the vote. What I am trying to show is not displeasure at the other samurai, but compassion for the heimin. I'll probably remove the bit about promising her this will not stand, but put in a bit about arrangeing a meeting with her and a scribe, so the list can be made. I do not want to ask her for a list of the relevant Matsu who do those things so as not to strain her loyalty(as she is rather new to the whole thing). After all, the only thing she told us that way are the saying the Matsu repeat aloud before their heimen, and which heimen were hurt.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So, a few perspective-bits off your quote... (Again, i could be wrong, and we await the response of the QM. This is just my *personal* understanding.)
- This tradition has probably been going on for longer than living memory. She would not have known when it started. The Matsu aren't big on picking up new ways to do things when the old ways work just fine - and if the old ways do not work just fine, then clearly you aren't applying them enthusiastically enough.
- We have a Duty to our clan, which is not in any way served by a quixotic attempt to shift the Ancient and Honored (though terrible) traditions of the Matsu. We're already upsetting them off enough by deigning to interact with the Crane. Openly championing the cause of the heimen over their idea of honor will net us nothing but a series of duels to the death, followed by a shallow grave, and the embarrassment of our superiors. Our task here is "get along with the Matsu", not "winnow the Matsu".
- I would *suspect* that the Matsu who do this sort of thing do not normally perform morning kata with live steel. Part of the point of that sort of tradition is that you respect it, and that you're not drawing the blade unless you have good reason to.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
The prize does go to the Unicorn. The Scorpion are surprisingly good at providing freedom and potential upward mobility (not into samurai caste, but it's easier to improve your situation within your station) and not just abusing their people (they have learned to value even unorthodox resources), but they also tend to do a lot of summary executions and permitting corruption and ruling through fear, and the freedom and upward mobility also come with a lot of potential downward mobility. On the flip side, the Scorpion themselves have been pretty mistreated for the last while, and that always helps to instill a fair bit of Compassion in the ranks, so Naoto's generation is probably doing pretty well, comparatively.
Naoto is surprisingly Compassionate for even a Scorpion of his own generation, and he fakes even more on top of that because he's able to see the value of heimen loyalty, and the Matsu make it so *easy*. If he were at Winter Court in Unicorn lands, he wouldn't be making anything close to as big a deal about it.
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What I am trying to figure out from this is are the Matsu going about it like:
A formal Matsu solemnly approaches the heimin with a drawn blade. The heimin, knowing his lord had drawn his blade justly in protection of them, gladly offer an arm. The cut is swift, careful and shallow. The Matsu nods to the heimin, even as the heimin bows, the blades honor preserved.
Or is it more about bullying and abuse of power, where the heimen are left wounded, even crippled needlessly just because the Matsu above them can get away with it. The formal, traditional and respectful manner depicted above, or something like it? We do not want to change a tradition like that.
But the Matsu have raged all over the Empire in the time leading up to the Second Day of Thunder. We need to check if they have grown arrogant and abusive of their privileges.
I do not think Naoto is espetially Compasionate. I think he can be when it suits his Clan and the Empire. Remember, he was raised by Scorpion judges. He should be completly capable of being ruthless if needed. His problem with this is if there is abuse, not the pain willingly suffered by the heimin.
That is the thing, she did not casualy remark that the tradition exsisted, her face closed down. As if it was not the place of the heimen to judge her lords, so the best she could do is merely answer. The way she answered is what I find ominous, not just her words.
A formal Matsu solemnly approaches the heimin with a drawn blade. The heimin, knowing his lord had drawn his blade justly in protection of them, gladly offer an arm. The cut is swift, careful and shallow. The Matsu nods to the heimin, even as the heimin bows, the blades honor preserved.
Or is it more about bullying and abuse of power, where the heimen are left wounded, even crippled needlessly just because the Matsu above them can get away with it. The formal, traditional and respectful manner depicted above, or something like it? We do not want to change a tradition like that.
But the Matsu have raged all over the Empire in the time leading up to the Second Day of Thunder. We need to check if they have grown arrogant and abusive of their privileges.
I do not think Naoto is espetially Compasionate. I think he can be when it suits his Clan and the Empire. Remember, he was raised by Scorpion judges. He should be completly capable of being ruthless if needed. His problem with this is if there is abuse, not the pain willingly suffered by the heimin.
That is the thing, she did not casualy remark that the tradition exsisted, her face closed down. As if it was not the place of the heimen to judge her lords, so the best she could do is merely answer. The way she answered is what I find ominous, not just her words.
@Sirrocco, in truth I had put the Mantis there as a placeholder, as it was very late.
But I think the best would be for a meeting with one of these and not another meeting with the Cranes.
-Crabs
-Otomo San
-Pale Oak.
I don't believe that one new day will be enough to change Mariko stance if we didn't managed to get her to give us the letter .
What do you think?
But I think the best would be for a meeting with one of these and not another meeting with the Cranes.
-Crabs
-Otomo San
-Pale Oak.
I don't believe that one new day will be enough to change Mariko stance if we didn't managed to get her to give us the letter .
What do you think?
Sirrocco
Pedantic
- If Pale Oak has something for us, he will give it to us. If we have something specific to talk with him about, we can track him down. Until then? there is little to be gained.
- Spending time with Otomo-sama isn't terrible on the face of it, but I'd want to have a reason for that, and I don't currently.
- Visiting the Crabs is worthwhile in a general sense, but I think we'd want to get that breakdown of Crab Clan tradeable resources from Pale Oak first, and to my knowledge he hasn't given us that.
I'm not all that strongly attached to putting another day into Mariko, but I figure it's iterating on our current plan one way or the other, and I haven't seen anything else that's *more* worth doing.
Hmm... Hey guys, question.
Instead of openly asking Doji Mariko about whether the orders are fake or not... what if we just get the stuff we need from Ikoma Genji -- the example of the Champion's orders, the wax seal thing -- and then simply leave those things where she can see them?
We don't bring up faked orders. We don't ask her to show us her letter.
Instead, we take the proof and simply... leave it lying around after we leave. So SHE can check it herself.
After we give a suitably subtle/appropriate message about checking orders and stuff.
THAT, to me, seems like a far more Scorpion way to go about things?
Also uh, the current plan had always seemed a little... crude to me.
Also: What if we raised the question of faked orders with Daidoji Chen? Maybe he'd be more receptive to it than Doji Mariko.
Instead of openly asking Doji Mariko about whether the orders are fake or not... what if we just get the stuff we need from Ikoma Genji -- the example of the Champion's orders, the wax seal thing -- and then simply leave those things where she can see them?
We don't bring up faked orders. We don't ask her to show us her letter.
Instead, we take the proof and simply... leave it lying around after we leave. So SHE can check it herself.
After we give a suitably subtle/appropriate message about checking orders and stuff.
THAT, to me, seems like a far more Scorpion way to go about things?
Also uh, the current plan had always seemed a little... crude to me.
Also: What if we raised the question of faked orders with Daidoji Chen? Maybe he'd be more receptive to it than Doji Mariko.
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Like I said, there's a non-zero risk that Chen's in on the faked orders if they are, indeed, faked.
I don't remember, but I thinkthat we never ask Pale Oak to get information on the other clans for us.
But even so, we would do alright if we use this action to mingle with the other diplomats and see what kind of opportunity it brings.
Our problem now, is that we are somewhat locked in our main goals, as they demand time for improvment and not consecutive actions.
Say instead of going for the Crab (not enough information on what they want), Pale Oak (let him work for a while in the integration of our spies in the Magistrates offices) or the Otomo (we want to survive his good will), that we spend this action opening other paths.
We can make in roads with the Phoenix (good fallback for action with the Cranes) or study what the Crab are bringing (with a study on what is the produce of that mine) , se if the other Scoepions need any help or, only, get a feeling on what is happening in court.
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Anyone remember Ikoma Ganyu?
@Maugan Ra : We never did take him up on his offer to show us around town.
@Sirrocco, what do you think of seeing about spending one of our afternoons cultivating that contact?
EDIT: Having Lions that like us could be useful, and he has more reason to like us then most.
@Maugan Ra : We never did take him up on his offer to show us around town.
@Sirrocco, what do you think of seeing about spending one of our afternoons cultivating that contact?
EDIT: Having Lions that like us could be useful, and he has more reason to like us then most.
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- Location
- London, England
Lore: Bushido 5k4 = 30
Bushido has never been a code where all samurai can agree perfectly on what is or is not the honourable course of action. There is always room for interpretation or doubt, and each family tends to practice the code in subtly different ways.
The Matsu family, unsurprisingly, tend towards the more violent and warlike aspects of Bushido. They value compassion, but in an abstract sense, primarily by defending the lower classes from external enemies. A Matsu lord might reduce the tax burden on his people if he realizes they are starving, but that is because it is his duty to nurture and protect the villages in his lands for the glory of the Emperor, not because he actually cares all that much about the individual peasants.
The practice of not sheathing your blade unless it has tasted blood is an old one, though not always practiced. Provided that the Heimin survive and are not crippled by any cuts inflicted, then in Matsu eyes the practice is fully supported by Bushido. No honourable samurai will be cruel to the peasants... but that doesn't mean you have to care about their happiness. They're not really people, after all.
(Basically, if you want to argue that the Matsu should not be doing this, you'll find enthusiastic support from the Unicorn, but it is unlikely that the Lion will actually listen to you)
Bushido has never been a code where all samurai can agree perfectly on what is or is not the honourable course of action. There is always room for interpretation or doubt, and each family tends to practice the code in subtly different ways.
The Matsu family, unsurprisingly, tend towards the more violent and warlike aspects of Bushido. They value compassion, but in an abstract sense, primarily by defending the lower classes from external enemies. A Matsu lord might reduce the tax burden on his people if he realizes they are starving, but that is because it is his duty to nurture and protect the villages in his lands for the glory of the Emperor, not because he actually cares all that much about the individual peasants.
The practice of not sheathing your blade unless it has tasted blood is an old one, though not always practiced. Provided that the Heimin survive and are not crippled by any cuts inflicted, then in Matsu eyes the practice is fully supported by Bushido. No honourable samurai will be cruel to the peasants... but that doesn't mean you have to care about their happiness. They're not really people, after all.
(Basically, if you want to argue that the Matsu should not be doing this, you'll find enthusiastic support from the Unicorn, but it is unlikely that the Lion will actually listen to you)
He is a good option... I would prefer to have more options in court, but wouldn't complain about using our action on him.
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Since Bayushi-sama is keeping us from Court(esentially we are in hiding from shame from losing to a Kakita) it might be wise to not go after someone who is from Court. Ikoma Ganyu is a nice, safe, honorable option. Also, modified vote for Wren:
[X] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation:
Answer in a pained voice: "Ah. I had hoped those rumors overblown." Allow a pain filled sigh that has nothing with our wounds to escape.
Spend a bit of time in silence considering the hundreds of Matsu samurai stationed here. If even a small number of those hundreds held to this idea, there are dozens of injured heimin every day. Every time they draw their blades and not manage to cut someone, they would end by cutting their own people. In the name of Honor. Seeing a Crane get trapped by malicious orders reminded you of it, and learning what the Matsu do only hammers the lesson home.
Your instructors were right. Question everything and develop your own judgment. Use Honor as a tool, for you have now seen the results of blind obedience. You will never allow yourself to fall to such self-delusions. And their own treatment of the heimen may give you more opportunities. You might want to speak to Pale Oak. See if we cannot find out which heimen have suffered the worst. Those could serve a purpose.
School your face to absolute stillness and speak formally: "Thank you for enlightening me Wren-san. Should one of the heimen be grievously injured, I would like to be informed."
*****
We pick up some more balls to juggle, and maybe start our path to being callled a hero of the people. That would be very useful for any spy network carrying our name. We can not stop the Matsu from the practise, but we could expose some of the worst offenders, and profit from it.
EDIT: toned down somewhat, both in reasoning and presentation.
[X] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation:
Answer in a pained voice: "Ah. I had hoped those rumors overblown." Allow a pain filled sigh that has nothing with our wounds to escape.
Spend a bit of time in silence considering the hundreds of Matsu samurai stationed here. If even a small number of those hundreds held to this idea, there are dozens of injured heimin every day. Every time they draw their blades and not manage to cut someone, they would end by cutting their own people. In the name of Honor. Seeing a Crane get trapped by malicious orders reminded you of it, and learning what the Matsu do only hammers the lesson home.
Your instructors were right. Question everything and develop your own judgment. Use Honor as a tool, for you have now seen the results of blind obedience. You will never allow yourself to fall to such self-delusions. And their own treatment of the heimen may give you more opportunities. You might want to speak to Pale Oak. See if we cannot find out which heimen have suffered the worst. Those could serve a purpose.
School your face to absolute stillness and speak formally: "Thank you for enlightening me Wren-san. Should one of the heimen be grievously injured, I would like to be informed."
*****
We pick up some more balls to juggle, and maybe start our path to being callled a hero of the people. That would be very useful for any spy network carrying our name. We can not stop the Matsu from the practise, but we could expose some of the worst offenders, and profit from it.
EDIT: toned down somewhat, both in reasoning and presentation.
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@primemountain, my problem with your vote, is that it impossible our modern morals in the setting, locking us more and more into a mindset that would make difficult to act against.
I understand that it try to minimize it, but the last sentence broke that.
Maybe take the last murmur out and, if we truly want to act against this practice, use this as a possible reason for the assassination atemp .
I understand that it try to minimize it, but the last sentence broke that.
Maybe take the last murmur out and, if we truly want to act against this practice, use this as a possible reason for the assassination atemp .
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Yeah, that was a bit too much for mere heimen company.
I do not think it has to do with modern morals. It is just wasteful. Wounded heimen do less work, and shodier work as well as resent you for it, thus being further encouraged to do less and shodier work. It is just plain stupid. Like plenty of things in the modern world.
I do not think it has to do with modern morals. It is just wasteful. Wounded heimen do less work, and shodier work as well as resent you for it, thus being further encouraged to do less and shodier work. It is just plain stupid. Like plenty of things in the modern world.