In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

Thank you Bayushi-sama for tanking all that Glory gain. But still. Shit. Glory 4.3, we are waaay to high in Glory for a Scorpion. That is the same Glory as the Emperor. And it could have been worse.

And now to dive back into the lore posts on the Clans and see who are current allies are/could be.

Right now I am leaning into going to support the Dragon, because we know shit all about the Dragon, Crab or Mantis. Since this is not really a memorable thing, we might as well do some scouting.

Besides, that discousion is 2v1. If we move in to support the Phoenix that would be far too blatant. This way we get a nice even 2v2, and we get to scout out some of the other courtiers in a low risk setting. While we have invested in these skills, we we do not know how we actually pair up to these people. So lets dip our toes in.

EDIT: Also, that vote worked out a lot better then I feared, but I am still worried about Daidoji. That look in his eye worries me. I need to go back and reread what we told him when he asked about how Mariko died.
 
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We were attacked by the Mantis in the funeral (that was an attack) and we didn't get much luck in our contacts with the Crab.

Helping them is a way to say that we want a chance to court one of the two sides.

We have no contact with the Dragon, that is alone and brought an insult to our hosts and perceived allies.

On the Unicorn side I think that we have to wait to hear about what Yogo told us about them...

And on top of that, we should know who here has a better standing with the Lions by knowing who received the a
Swordpolisher
 
[X] Join the conversation between Tani and Moshan
- [X] And support the Phoenix
Thank you Bayushi-sama for tanking all that Glory gain. But still. Shit. Glory 4.3, we are waaay to high in Glory for a Scorpion. That is the same Glory as the Emperor. And it could have been worse.
?

High Glory isn't a problem for Scorpions. Having people know of your valorous deeds is good for your Clan's prestige and your own, which helps in turn with getting what you want. It's only a problem if you have a specific role that requires you to stay out of the public eye.

As for having just as much Glory as the Emperor, that's not really a problem. The Emperor only has low Glory because few people would be able to recognize him out on the street.

To be honest though, Toturi probably has way higher Glory than 4 due to how he got the throne.
 
Thank you Bayushi-sama for tanking all that Glory gain. But still. Shit. Glory 4.3, we are waaay to high in Glory for a Scorpion. That is the same Glory as the Emperor. And it could have been worse.
The emperor's glory is disproportionately small compared to his status because not many people would recognise him. He just lives lifestyle that is isolated from others by the court.
 
We're too high in Glory for a Soshi, perhaps, who are not known for being a flamboyant family.

But for the Scorpion in general, the Bayushi are known for being flashy. A high glory is not necessarily an impediment to a Scorpion's service to the Clan.
 
"You are... saying that someone interfered with my Clan's correspondence, in an attempt to push us into war, Matsu-sama?" Daidoji Chen says slowly, a strange light in his eye as he glances between the Daimyo and you.
It's been a long time since the quest was active, and so I don't remember every thing we've said and done and when it was all said and done, but...

I remember that a one point we did tell Chen that we had no idea what was going on, right? (Update 5.16)

(As a reminder, we actually found out that the orders were faked in 4.17.

Now it comes out that the Scorpion delegation did get to the bottom of that matter. Chen's probably wondering whether we found this out before or after we told him that we weren't sure what was going on. Or he could just be thinking "Huh, so the Scorpions did get to the bottom of this after all."

Anyway, if we talk to Chen about it, do we tell him that we found out after we had the talk with him? And sadly, of course, the Scorpions didn't manage to reveal it fast enough to save another Samurai Clan delegate... First the Crane delegate, now the Scorpion delegate!

Plus, I mean. The Lion Daimyo literally said "the Scorpion leader only told me this just the night before her death." So that's sort of suggesting that the Scorpion only got to the bottom of this recently. And, well, the events of the past (how many days has it been? 3?) few days -- the attack on the Scorpion compound, their Shugenja being KOd, Naoto being waylaid by a spirit and coming back to be almost arrested/framed for murder -- do make it look like the Scorpions only just now got to the bottom of things and the mysterious enemy rushed to try and take us out. (And Naoto was thus left in a position where, even though he had the truth, was kinda unable to easily act on it anymore due to the whole suspicion thing and the "no superior anymore" thing.)
 
It's been a long time since the quest was active, and so I don't remember every thing we've said and done and when it was all said and done, but...

I remember that a one point we did tell Chen that we had no idea what was going on, right? (Update 5.16)

(As a reminder, we actually found out that the orders were faked in 4.17.

Now it comes out that the Scorpion delegation did get to the bottom of that matter. Chen's probably wondering whether we found this out before or after we told him that we weren't sure what was going on. Or he could just be thinking "Huh, so the Scorpions did get to the bottom of this after all."

Anyway, if we talk to Chen about it, do we tell him that we found out after we had the talk with him? And sadly, of course, the Scorpions didn't manage to reveal it fast enough to save another Samurai Clan delegate... First the Crane delegate, now the Scorpion delegate!

Plus, I mean. The Lion Daimyo literally said "the Scorpion leader only told me this just the night before her death." So that's sort of suggesting that the Scorpion only got to the bottom of this recently. And, well, the events of the past (how many days has it been? 3?) few days -- the attack on the Scorpion compound, their Shugenja being KOd, Naoto being waylaid by a spirit and coming back to be almost arrested/framed for murder -- do make it look like the Scorpions only just now got to the bottom of things and the mysterious enemy rushed to try and take us out. (And Naoto was thus left in a position where, even though he had the truth, was kinda unable to easily act on it anymore due to the whole suspicion thing and the "no superior anymore" thing.)
We told him we knew nothing on the 21st, it is currently the 27th, and Kimiko died on the 22nd.
 
@Garlak : Thanks for that. So no, we did not actually lie to him. He asked if we know who was behind this, we did not. We still do not. We figured out what had happened too late to stop it, we never did figure out who or what was behind it until a spirit literally up and told us on the day of the assasination.

So no, we did not lie. Good for us. Did we have knowledge we did not share? Yes. That may come back to bite us if we do not handle it well.
 
[x] Join the conversation between Mia, Harike and Masaru
- [x] And support the Dragon
 
[X] Join the conversation between Tani and Moshan
- [X] And support the Phoenix

Even better if Yogo Hanzo joins in on the side of the Unicorn.
 
On the Unicorn side I think that we have to wait to hear about what Yogo told us about them...

And on top of that, we should know who here has a better standing with the Lions by knowing who received the a
Swordpolisher

Yogo Hanzo has only relatively limited insight into the Unicorn. They appear to desire nothing more than peace and unity between the Clans, and he honestly can't tell if that's just a front or if they're secretly after something they haven't told him about.

He can cheerfully speak with them as one samurai to another, though, especially their Shugenja.

As for the sword-polishers... looking around, the Crab and the Unicorn are the only ones to receive such a basic courtesy thus far, in addition to you.
 
Okay... to hope that the shugenja with a dark family and a desire for payback would be good at politicking was a little to much.

But I still think that we would gain more from letting someone come to us than from going for any of the present options.

Yes we need to talk with Tani, but we also need to talk with everyone else.

Let's let someone have the initiative for once, as we don't really have to get anything else done in this court and we don't have any plans for this conversations.

[X] "watch the art around the room"
 
Okay... to hope that the shugenja with a dark family and a desire for payback would be good at politicking was a little to much.

But I still think that we would gain more from letting someone come to us than from going for any of the present options.

Yes we need to talk with Tani, but we also need to talk with everyone else.

Let's let someone have the initiative for once, as we don't really have to get anything else done in this court and we don't have any plans for this conversations.

[X] "watch the art around the room"
I don't know that we can afford to take it slow or passive right now. We don't have Bayushi-sama any more, which means we have to step up.

From a meta sense, how successful we are at this court involves in part how well we find out the goals and motivations of the various named characters, and what we do to fulfill them (or not). We invested rather heavily in the the Crane at first, and then got taken out of action for a while. The Scorpion delegation also lost its most powerful member. The overall results aren't necessarily bad as far as long-term goals (We have Otomo-sama as a personal ally, and we have significant favor with Lion and some credit with the Crane) but right now, we're distinctly behind on everything else.

- Unicorn(4): Yogo Hanzo is handling these. That'll be enough to help keep on friendly terms, which is handy, but it gets us little on finding out what any of them might want. He can also get us an introduction if/when we need it. They seem to be of the peace faction, which means that our clan has probably gotten credit with them for preventing the Lion/Crane war
- Dragon(1): Yogo Hanzo is handling him as well. He's a Mirumoto, he's good with those swords, he's on a religious pilgrimage, and would likely be interested in us arranging for him to be able to visit Shiro no Shosuro.
- Phoenix(2): We have something that might turn into a friendship with Asako Tani. Thus far, she's admitted no desires other than the Peace Faction thing. We have nothing on the Shiba.
- Mantis(2): Effectively no connection or information
- Crab(4): Yasuki is Yasuki, and at least some of her goals are mercantile. We've managed to alienate the Kaiu. We have very little here.
- Crane(1): We don't really know what Daidoji Chen's current goals are. *He* might not know what his current goals are. We should probably talk with him at some point soonish, to try to establish what the new relationship between our delegations should be based on (since the "flirting with Mariko" basis is... well... dead). He might well be sitting on a few trade opportunities that he's ill-equipped to arrange, and may appreciate some straightforward and sympathetic practicality. Also, it seems likely that he's behind in much the same way we are. He didn't lose quite as many days, but I suspect we could make common cause with him fairly readily - especially since we can currently count him as an ally(2,2).
- Otomo(1): We're in pretty solidly with Otomo-sama, but opportunities to improve that relationship are never going to be a bad thing. Actually, he might well be a highly useful source for information. Many of the things we have to trade are useful in rebuilding, and in his professional capacity he might well know where that rebuilding would be most useful for the long-term productivity of the Empire.
- Lion(lots): We're in pretty solid here, too. Not sure what else there is to do other than acting reasonably honorably and staying on their good side. Cultivating the Diamyo's son a bit might be useful at some point, and it's not like we're ever going to not want more Lion favor/influence, but we're already in the "huge success" column (as long as we don't mess things up) and we really need to be playing catch-up elsewhere.

So, of those, we've basically got an in with the Phoenix (one of them) and the Crane (the only one remaining). Also, at some poitn during the court, we (WoQM) need to come to an agreement with each of the attending clans as to tariffs. (By implication, the sole Dragon rep actually does have at least some clout, and is worth cultivating at least some. His art suggests as well that he might be amenable to being approached.)

So, in terms of specific goals and immediate strategies....
- Unicorn: basically under control. We aren't in a good position to pursue their plot hooks, but we are in a good position to painlessly ignore their plot hooks without too much damage. We can take what Yogo Hanzo gets us, and figure that that will be enough.
- Dragon: Basically the same deal as the Unicorn. Yog Hanzo is handling him, and we can't really afford to double up right now.
- Phoenix: Whoof. We need to have a nice, quiet talk at some point, in which we tell her enough about what was going on to satisfy her. I looked back, and we never got word back from our superiors int he Clan. The stuff that Bayushi Kimiko ordered us not to talk about has been mostly revealed anyway, and I don't think we can afford to wait for the round-trip for a message that would tell us what to do with the new info. Unfortunately, she's a loremaster. Anything we tell her will get spread among the Phoenix, at least, pretty quickly. This one is kind of tricky.
- Mantis: We should keep an eye open for some way to get an in to this delegation. Interfering with their attempt to schmooze the Crab is not going to be the way to go on it.
- Crab: We need to get an in back into this delegation at some point, especially given the importance of trade. Unfortunately, our ability to leverage Lion connections has gone down significantly since the last time we examined the situation - and the fact that they're now in the sword-polisher club means that they probably don't need it as much. We could probably gain some favor here by offering them knowledge about the Nothing (especially the "how to spot them", "how do they fight", and "we think they're vulnerable to crystal but maybe not jade" parts) but, again, just handing out that sort of info is not something to be done lightly. It'd be easier if they had a Kuni with them.
- Crane: We should meet with him pretty soon, find out how he's doing, re-establish some sort of a connection with him, and share... probably at least as much as we're sharing with anyone else. Ugh. He'll have good reason to feel affronted if it becomes clear that we have information and have not told him (especially if we'd told anyone else) but he's not exactly the sort of person we want to tell. Yeah, the "how much do we tell who" thing is going to get ugly, and deserves some more thought.
- Otomo: Doing well so far. Grab further opportunities as they present themselves, but no need to focus on him.
- Lion: see Otomo.

side note: not only did we get the clue about the Nothing, but the Yuki-onna told us about the importance of Crystal ("tears of the sun") as well. Also, a *lot* has happened at this court that hasn't made its way to the eyes of our superiors. This info needs to get out.
- We should tell Yogo Hanzo about the connection with Crystal immediately.
- We should have a letter composed for our leadership back home containing basically all of the information we currently have abotu the foe (response to the wards, the bit about Crystal that the yukionna said, the "unmaking the soul" bit that the yukionna said, the bot about the clothing and the facelessness and the claws, and so forth). We can inform them as to the details of Bayushi-sama's death at the same time. Given that our own skill with ciphers may not be up to the task, possibly have "Pale Oak" do the cipher. There's a nontrivial chance that they'll come back to finish the job at some point, and the Scorpion *need* to know.
 
Yogo Hanzo has only relatively limited insight into the Unicorn. They appear to desire nothing more than peace and unity between the Clans, and he honestly can't tell if that's just a front or if they're secretly after something they haven't told him about.
They want the clans to unite and work together rather than waste our times with pointless intrigue?
You are right, that does sound suspicious.
 
@Sirrocco: Sorry to burst a bubble but we know it is Crystal. Naoto does not. We rolled Lore for that(I think) and Maugan said something like(found it):
Lore: Theology 5k4 = 22

It's a fairly vague statement. Rokugani mythology holds that when Lord Moon devoured his children, Lady Sun wept in grief, and her tears fell into the world. When they landed upon the ground they became Jade, and where they solidified in the air they became Crystal. Those few tears which mixed with the blood of Lord Moon became the first humans.

So... there are several possible interpretations of her words. Which is to be expected from a spirit, really, since they don't see the world in the same way that humans do.
So yeah, not really clear on the Crystal thing. Talking to a loremaster might make sense if we ask her about those tears of the sun. Maybe she knows what the spirit meant?

Btw, @Maugan Ra : What did Yogo say about the attackers? Apart from jade not working on them, did any of the other stuff work? Did he have an opportunity to try that ward thing on them? Is that what caused the fire marks we saw in the spot where he fell, or did he call upon the fire kami directly? Or is this something we need to ask him IC at a later date?
 
@Sirrocco: Sorry to burst a bubble but we know it is Crystal. Naoto does not. We rolled Lore for that(I think) and Maugan said something like(found it):

So yeah, not really clear on the Crystal thing. Talking to a loremaster might make sense if we ask her about those tears of the sun. Maybe she knows what the spirit meant?

Btw, @Maugan Ra : What did Yogo say about the attackers? Apart from jade not working on them, did any of the other stuff work? Did he have an opportunity to try that ward thing on them? Is that what caused the fire marks we saw in the spot where he fell, or did he call upon the fire kami directly? Or is this something we need to ask him IC at a later date?

Okay, well at that point we know that "tears of the sun" means Crystal, Jade, or people. "People" seems unlikely. As for what we know of the battle....

"The enemy numbered seven, Soshi-dono." Pale Oak reports, schooling his voice to professional detachment. "One appeared to be you in every respect, down to mask and clothes. The other six initially seemed to be servants, but upon attacking removed their faces as though they were masks, leaving nothing but smooth expanses of skin. Their hands became clawed and they carried no weapons, save for the one imitating you, which wielded a katana with some notable skill."

He pauses for a moment, gathering his thoughts. "The enemy are Tainted in some fashion, but appear to have some strange resistance to the sacred touch of Jade. Yogo-sama was able to physically repel the faceless ones with a ward of some kind, which drove them back and scorched their flesh, but upon summoning the spirits of earth with which to smite them found this ineffective. In addition, they are stronger and faster than seems possible for mortal foes, and they seemed largely unaffected by grevious injuries."

Another pause. "Even so, Bayushi-sama was able to account for three of the faceless ones, and Yogo-sama and I were able to destroy another, before their injuries overwhelmed her and a poisoned blade incapacitated him. I fled, and they retreated."

So... weak against the ward (which we'd heard about from Yogo Hanzo before - it's probably the "detect the tainted by setting them on fire" ward). Strong against Jade (which does give us strong IC reason to believe that the yukionna was referring to crystal, given the lore we *did* get). Strong against attacks based on the spirits of the earth. Stronger, faster, and apparently able to ignore wound penalties (at least somewhat).
 
- Crane(1): We don't really know what Daidoji Chen's current goals are. *He* might not know what his current goals are. We should probably talk with him at some point soonish, to try to establish what the new relationship between our delegations should be based on (since the "flirting with Mariko" basis is... well... dead). He might well be sitting on a few trade opportunities that he's ill-equipped to arrange, and may appreciate some straightforward and sympathetic practicality. Also, it seems likely that he's behind in much the same way we are. He didn't lose quite as many days, but I suspect we could make common cause with him fairly readily - especially since we can currently count him as an ally(2,2).
About that -- Daidoji Chen has just learned that the Crane's orders were faked. And the people who uncovered this were the Scorpion, and the people who announced this were the Lion.

Daidoji Chen is going to want to talk to us not just because of the "So, when did you learn this?" angle but also because we might be able to give him some assurance of wtf is going on.
 
Looking at @Sirrocco's examination of our various relationships, I'm reminded of something I brought up about forty pages ago...

I don't think it would be a terrible idea to write out a letter apologizing for the whole incident in a day or two. You know, after Kaiu Hiraki has a little time to cool off a bit. Frankly, it's likely also just good etiquette. This was a pretty big faux pas, but not an irrecoverable one. If we show some sincerity in the future, and continue to be relatively upstanding, the bridge can probably be mended.

But that's for a few days down the road.

It's been an adequate amount of time, especially considering what's happened. It might behoove us to write an apology letter soon.
 
7.05 - Unicorn Theology
After a quick look around - one which cannot be prolonged too far lest you give the impression of being indecisive and weak - you settle on approaching the ongoing discussion between Iuchi Moshan and Asako Tani. The Unicorn is accompanied by one of the Utaku twins who seems to be serving as his delegation's yojimbo, though you cannot tell at a glance which one she is, while the quietly intense form of Shiba Danjuro stands behind his charge in turn.

"I speak merely on my family's traditions, Asako-san." The Iuchi is saying politely as you approach, the patterns on his rich blue-and-purple kimono catching the eye as he gestures with the fan he holds in one hand. "If the Iuchi were not adaptable to changing circumstances we would have failed in our duty long ago. Surely no course which condemns a samurai to such an end could be righteous."

"I make no claims about your history and the choices you have faced, Iuchi-san." Asako Tani replies evenly, the very picture of composed confidence. "Even so, to go so far as to say that there is no great difference between one technique and another is self-evidently foolish."

"Fortunate, then, that I said no such thing." The Unicorn replies, though his eyes narrow faintly. "There are a great many differences between the techniques of my family and that of, say, the Isawa... but to say that one is better than the other is insulting to them both. Each is best suited to a particular task or approach, perhaps, but nothing more."

Hmm. That seems like the best opportunity you are going to have to intervene, though you would have preferred a topic that you could actually argue in while believing your own words. Still, such is life and duty in Rokugan, and you have no intention of allowing your own doubts to interfere with what you know must be done.

"I am afraid I must respectfully disagree, Iuchi-san." You say in a deferential tone, moving to join the small gathering in the middle of the hall. "Even if what you say is true, surely an approach that can be successfully applied to many scenarios is superior to one that can only be applied to a few?"

"Matters of the spirit are concerned with more than mere practicality, Soshi-san." The Unicorn replies, perhaps a tad sharper than is entirely appropriate. "Air might be found useful in more situations than Fire, but I would hardly claim it to be the superior element as a result."

"Ah, but then we are returning to the pursuit of enlightenment." Tani returns, shooting you a grateful look in acknowledgement of your assistance. "Shinsei teaches us that there were many paths that one could walk to the same destination... but also to be wary of false paths that might lead us astray."

"By extension, therefore," you continue, picking up the thread of the conversation with a practiced ease that leaves the Unicorn momentarily disorientated, "one can clearly see that not all paths are equal. As the studies of a Shugenja are the pursuit of enlightenment through elemental communion, then by the wisdom of Shinsei some means of study are superior to others."

"Are you calling my techniques a false path?" Iuchi Moshan demands in a slightly louder tone, one which draws glances from many places across the hall. Behind him the Utaku shifts her stance, one hand coming to rest near but not on the hilt of her sword.

"I would never dream of doing such a thing." You reply, adding just the right amount of emphasis to your words in order to highlight the self-doubt such a question implies. "I merely acknowledge that such things exist, and one must be wary of encountering them. And since it is the duty of the Phoenix to guide and watch over all magical pursuits within the Empire..."

"It is our testimony which stands supreme in matters such as this." Tani finishes off, smiling pleasantly. "Can you fault our logic, Iuchi-san?"

The Unicorn tries to do so, that much you can credit him with, but between your gift with words and Tani's near-encyclopedic grasp of magical theory and theology, he finds himself outmaneuvered and out-argued again and again. In the eyes of all the court, you and Tani are clearly in the right, and eventually even Moshan is forced to concede and retreat.

In the aftermath, you find yourself moving around the hall at Tani's side, conversing in more detail about some of the points and arguments raised and then dismissed in the previous debate. It is an interesting discussion to be sure, but you are not so foolish as to believe that the Phoenix has nothing greater in mind... and after a moment or two, your instincts are proven right.

"Well, Soshi-san, I dare say these count as more comfortable surroundings." Tani says conversationally. Your course has carried the two of you away from the rest of the immediate gathering, at least temporarily, and aside from the silent form of Shiba Danjuro walking along behind you none can easily overhear the nature of your conversation. "Perhaps now you might tell me what it is that was meant by the spirit's words? Touched by the storm, I believe she called you?"

How will you respond?
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