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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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I've put in an edit to make the "step in on behalf of the Mantis on Bushido day" more explicitly part of the plan.
 
[X] Plan Squid

Nothing much to really object against here, it's a nice balance of managing the various clans. I suppose it doesn't really feel like it wins us or our clan anything except maybe some minor goodwill, I feel like we could try to advance some kind of Scorpion interest besides 'Keep everyone happy', but it's a decent enough arrangement overall.
 
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LastChronicler said:
[X] Plan Squid

Nothing much to really object against here, it's a nice balance of managing the various clans. I suppose it doesn't really feel like it wins us or our clan anything except maybe some minor goodwill, I feel like we could try to advance some kind of Scorpion interest besides 'Keep everyone happy', but it's a decent enough arrangement overall.
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I can see your point but... well, I basically see this as the equivalent of getting Enough Rope. If there was some clan out there that we seriously wished to harm, this would be an opportunity to do that, but I really don't see that there is, right now. Better to try to keep on a more or less even keel, while carefully advancing a few of our positions in Court.

The bit where we're pandering to Otomo-sama actually *is* a pretty risky move, though. We're straight-up handing him a pile of rope to play with and standing prepared to handle the result. This will almost certainly place us in an awkward position somehow or another. At the same time, if we can manage to pull ourselves back out of it well enough, we'll earn a bit more respect from him, and may get advantage elsewhere as well. Having extra influence in the imperial families doesn't necessarily do all that much while we're here, but it has all sorts of useful implications for endgame (assuming the man lives).
 
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7.09 - The Kami's Favour
  • Threadmarks
    • The 2nd Day of the Rat

    Court is just about reaching it's peak on the first day after the Bowman's Wager when you make your move. Conversation to this point has been somewhat sporadic and broken down into individual cliques, but when you address the room everyone turns to listen.

    "I have a question that has been occupying my thoughts of late." You begin, gesturing widely with your fan in one hand to signal a query directed at any who might think to answer. "In the contest yesterday - Shiba-san may not have called upon any of the kami to aid him, but it seems clear that they smiled upon him regardless. This inspired me to wonder - why do the kami favour some over others? Is it perhaps a sign that their behaviour is pleasing in some way? Or is it more basic, a reflection of that soul's individual worth? Would one who is closer to enlightenment be closer to the Kami as a result, or are the two matters independent of one another?"

    "An interesting question, Soshi-san." Asako Tani responds first, as just about everyone would have expected given her Clan and school. "Certainly there has been much speculation and research on the topic performed by sages and shugenja throughout the history of the Empire."

    "Really? I would have thought the answer was obvious." Yoritomo Harike says bluntly, delivering his reply with all the force and finesse of a tetsubo to the face. "The kami favour those who invoke their will, no more or less. All else is sophistry and pretty lies."

    Article:
    Yoritomo Harike rolls Intimidation/Willpower: ??? = 50
    Asako Tani resists with Etiquette/Willpower ??? = 18


    Tani almost seems to stumble, blinking rapidly as the sudden and aggressive statement catches her off guard. "I... that is to say I do not..."

    "Oh? Need some time to catch your breath, Asako-san?" The distinctly rural tones of Yasuki Mia cut across the hall like a blade. "That's fine. We'll wait. Maybe meditation will help?"

    Tani's face flushes at the blatant mockery, and behind her Shiba Danjuro visibly tenses, able to observe the sudden change in the atmosphere of the room but unable to counter it. All around the room the other guests and courtiers look on with unabashed interest, fans flicking back and forwards in a chorus of whispers. The air is charged, the Phoenix on the back foot, and before anyone can get their feet back under them the Mantis seize the opportunity so presented.

    "Ah, you must not be too hard on her, Yasuki-san." Yoritomo Harike says chidingly to the Crab as he steps forwards. "She is a 'Loremaster', after all, a creature of the temples and libraries. It is only natural that she stumble once or twice, when forced to confront a situation her studies did not prepare her for."

    "Are you mocking my school, Yoritomo-san?" Tani demands, visibly angry, her On momentarily disrupted by the coordinated assault. Her yojimbo looks at her with subdued alarm, well aware of the breach of etiquette that a display of obvious emotion in public entails, but the Mantis are not yet done.

    "I would never dream of such a thing, Asako-san." Yoritomo Harike says with absolute sincerity. "Doubtless in your Clan such techniques are highly studied and revered, and you have done your sensei proud by mastering them. But this is a court of warriors, not a temple full of sages, and your ways are not our ways."

    It is as though he has thrown a heavy stone into the middle of a lake, as violent ripples radiate out through the court and a rumble of agreement and approval fill the air. That last statement is a direct quote of Akodo-no-kami, used to dismiss and belittle the wisdom of Shinsei in the earliest days of the Empire, and by referencing it against the spiritual Phoenix in a court full of Lions Yoritomo Harike has made his position all but unassailable.

    Unfortunately, there is no real way for you to stay out of this matter entirely, not when you introduced this topic and even supported the spiritual authority of the Phoenix mere days ago. You cannot go against the words of Akodo, but perhaps you can weaken the position of the Mantis with a few sharp words of your own.

    "That seems a bold claim to make, Yoritomo-san." You say conversationally, deflecting the attention of the court in order to give Tani enough time to control her emotions once again. "'All else is sophistry and lies'? Surely you do not deny the influence of the kami in this world independent of mortal will?"

    Article:
    Soshi Naoto rolls Courtier/Awareness: 7k4 = 40
    Yoritomo Harike resists with Etiquette/Willpower: ??? = 35


    Your remark provokes another flurry of fans and considering looks throughout the court, but Harike remains calm and composed.

    "Only a fool would deny their influence, Soshi-san. I merely deny their independent favour." He replies, though perhaps not as confidently as he otherwise might have. "Our ancestors bless us, the Fortunes bless us, but the wind and the waves? No. The tide goes as it wills, uncaring of whether such movements serve or harm the interests of those who sail upon it."

    You pause for a brief moment, picking that statement apart in your mind in hopes of finding some new weakness or flaw to exploit, but before you can Yasuki Mia speaks once more.

    "Your own family believes much the same, don't they Soshi-san?" She asks with deceptive lightness. "I would have presumed so, given your long history of invoking their aid for all manner of dishonorable ends?"

    "Such as?" The words slip from your lips without conscious thought as you turn to face the Crab diplomat head-on. From the small smile on the Yasuki's face she is clearly going somewhere specific with this, but where...

    "Such as calling upon the spirits of the wind to favour the arrows of your allies and disrupt those of your enemies in a formal competition." Yoritomo Harike catches you from the side, his words blunt and accusing. "Or are the Scorpion too honourable to stoop to such things?"

    Article:
    Yoritomo Harike rolls Intimidate (Control)/Willpower: ??? = 69
    Naoto rolls Etiquette/Willpower to resist: 5k2 = 32


    For one long, horrible moment, you hesitate.

    It is a sign of weakness, the only one that Harike needs, and judging by the ugly gleam in his eye you are quite sure he knows it. Already you can hear angry muttering from the crowd of assembled watchers, feel the glare of the assembled Lion samurai upon your back. The opinion of the court is shifting agains you with considerable speed, as samurai look to their neighbours and wonder - how did the Scorpion and the Phoenix wind up as the finalists in a contest of archery? Was there something sinister behind those sudden gusts of wind that spoiled the aim of the Wasp? Were you cheating, and if so how should such an insult be answered?

    You need to say something, to react in some way and counter this sudden assault, but... what? How?

    You have no idea, but if you hope to salvage anything from this you must speak quickly...

    Article:
    What do you say/do?
    [ ] Write in
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Wow, this guy is either rolling like a champion, or he's the best Intimidate Courtier in the fucking Empire.
     
    Okay, so, first, was our shugenja even present? I mean, his accusation is on the face of it ridiculous, or at least doesn't hold up to more than a moment's scrutiny, but I'm not sure how to rub it in his face easily.
     
    The entire conversation is tripping me up to be honest. Yoritomo Harike is accusing us of cheating, but I don't get the crux of his argument in the entire snippet. Anyone able to get it better?

    Seriously, best I can figure out is that he's saying that the kami do whatever people say. If that's his argument, it's kinda blatantly wrong in so many ways. At least from what I know based on the lore.
     
    Lost Star said:
    The entire conversation is tripping me up to be honest. Yoritomo Harike is accusing us of cheating, but I don't get the crux of his argument in the entire snippet. Anyone able to get it better?

    Seriously, best I can figure out is that he's saying that the kami do whatever people say. If that's his argument, it's kinda blatantly wrong in so many ways. At least from what I know based on the lore.
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    He seems to be saying that the Kami do what people say...or they do what they want and don't give a fuck.

    Which, if you actually follow it to its logical end is a meaningless statement.

    He's stating, "Kami do what people will them to do...except when they don't and don't care about people."

    I guess he's trying to claim that the Kami never give blessings out just because?

    And so if the wind was favoring the Phoenix, it was because of us...therefore something something?
     
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    In hindsight, it was probably not a good idea to bring up the Kami and the Pheonix right after that unexpected win they had in the Bowman competition.
     
    The Laurent said:
    He seems to be saying that the Kami do what people say...or they do what they want and don't give a fuck.

    Which, if you actually follow it to its logical end is a meaningless statement.

    He's stating, "Kami do what people will them to do...except when they don't and don't care about people."

    I guess he's trying to claim that the Kami never give blessings out just because?

    And so if the wind was favoring the Phoenix, it was because of us...therefore something something?
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    it doesn't make sense, but he says it forcefully and convictionfuly enough that it gains a reaction, and that reaction means that we must have been up to something!

    Rokugani Court stuff is less about objective truth and all a game of who makes a mistake first. In that sense, someone being absolutely and hilariously wrong--but still forces reactions from other people that make them "Lose", is an excellent debater.
     
    Alectai said:
    it doesn't make sense, but he says it forcefully and convictionfuly enough that it gains a reaction, and that reaction means that we must have been up to something!

    Rokugani Court stuff is less about objective truth and all a game of who makes a mistake first. In that sense, someone being absolutely and hilariously wrong--but still forces reactions from other people that make them "Lose", is an excellent debater.
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    I think if we want to salvage this, we need to turn this into a different sort of battle. We aren't going to win an intimidation-off with him, because he's a blustering moron.

    So why not make him look like that? Not sure how to do it, but if we turn it into a contest of 'our intelligence against his' then we'll win a lot more than if it's 'our bluster against his.'

    So first, if we WERE going to sabotage the Bowman's Wager, how would we do it? What are limitations of doing so.

    Like, in order to deconstruct how ridiculous his claims are, we first have to know what we'd need to have done to actually cheated in that manner.

    Also, are there Shugenja who are monitoring the wager? What's the traditional means of ensuring that nobody cheats, @Maugan Ra , or is it an 'honors system' sort of thing?

    Who, who has knowledge of the Kami/spirits/whatnot, was watching that might confirm or deny anything? And are they present?
     
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    The problem here is that no matter what we need to stay on the offensive; we only have Willpower 2 and thus aren't good at defending ourselves when accused of stuff, as we just saw in the update.

    Does anybody recall if our resident Yogo was still recuperating during the events of the Bowman's Wager?
    Alectai said:
    Wow, this guy is either rolling like a champion, or he's the best Intimidate Courtier in the fucking Empire.
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    Yoritomo Courtiers basically revolve around intimidating other people into getting their way and being completely unflappable otherwise. The only way to win this game is to either not play or change the terms of how everything is being discussed.

    Of course, the problem here is that he undoubtedly has high Willpower and so is good on defense and attack so long as he keeps intimidating everyone into listening to him.

    Also, our Yoritomo friend is making a reference to the spell Arrrow's Flight, which basically makes an arrow certain to reach its target. Don't know if that'll help.
     
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    Alectai said:
    it doesn't make sense, but he says it forcefully and convictionfuly enough that it gains a reaction, and that reaction means that we must have been up to something!

    Rokugani Court stuff is less about objective truth and all a game of who makes a mistake first. In that sense, someone being absolutely and hilariously wrong--but still forces reactions from other people that make them "Lose", is an excellent debater.
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    For the record, this is pretty much precisely what is happening.

    Yoritomo Harike isn't trying to make well-reasoned points or convince anyone of a particular argument. He's trying to throw you off balance, provoke you into doing or saying something rash, and generally make you reveal weakness in front of the court as a whole.

    Asako Tani has already lost Honour in that update, because she was driven to stammering and open displays of anger by his boorish manner.
     
    A Nation's Virtue said:
    The problem here is that no matter what we need to stay on the offensive; we only have Willpower 2 and thus aren't good at defending ourselves when accused of stuff, as we just saw in the update.

    Does anybody recall if our resident Yogo was still recuperating during the events of the Bowman's Wager?

    Yoritomo Courtiers basically revolve around intimidating other people into getting their way and being completely unflappable otherwise. The only way to win this game is to either not play or change the terms of how everything is being discussed.

    Of course, the problem here is that he undoubtedly has high Willpower and so is good on defense and attack so long as he keeps intimidating everyone into listening to him.
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    Yeah, like I said. Only way around this is to make it an Intelligence contest, somehow. No idea how to do that, though.

    Also, increasing our WP just went up higher on our to-do list. Even though I'll be sad to see the chance to be peak human intelligence go away :(

    Maugan Ra said:
    For the record, this is pretty much precisely what is happening.

    Yoritomo Harike isn't trying to make well-reasoned points or convince anyone of a particular argument. He's trying to throw you off balance, provoke you into doing or saying something rash, and generally make you reveal weakness in front of the court as a whole.

    Asako Tani has already lost Honour in that update, because she was driven to stammering and open displays of anger by his boorish manner.
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    Okay, while I still don't have an idea, that's definitely a second point.

    We need to not overreact and act like this is a big deal. We'd rather be bland and avoid saying anything than go out on a limb with an argument and then fail a Willpower check.

    Edit: Additional idea:

    Here is the accusation...

    "Such as calling upon the spirits of the wind to favour the arrows of your allies and disrupt those of your enemies in a formal competition." Yoritomo Harike catches you from the side, his words blunt and accusing. "Or are the Scorpion too honourable to stoop to such things?"

    It has two parts. One, the specific accusation, and two, 'Scorpion are dishonorable and therefore would do that.' Which, uh, he has a point.

    If we could slip the debate into something philosophical and intellectual and polite and do it without him just going and being Donald Trump on us and saying something fucking stupid with a grin on his face, perhaps we could not get lost in the weeds of accusations.

    So, like, talk about honor and the nature of Kami in general?
     
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    Well....

    We could always challenge him to duel over the insult.

    This is Shiro Matsu, the home crowd would prefer to see some blood.

    @Maugan Ra is this guy wearing a katana & wazikashi?
     
    Not actually voting for but throwing out there as an Idea but if we want to throw him off his game

    [maybe] Why yes, Harike-san my clan has been know to willing dirty our hands when it comes to doing our duty for the empire so that other do not have too. However when we do use such methods nobody tends to know that we have.
     
    Wade Garrett said:
    Well....

    We could always challenge him to duel over the insult.

    This is Shiro Matsu, the home crowd would prefer to see some blood.

    @Maugan Ra is this guy wearing a katana & wazikashi?
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    Frankly that's just what he'd want. We'd be completely overreacting to what he's saying.

    Okay, first off.

    People who know the lore: who can call on the Kamis to do that? It wouldn't be just anyone, right?

    And wouldn't such an action be noticeable?
     
    The Laurent said:
    Frankly that's just what he'd want. We'd be completely overreacting to what he's saying.
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    He just accused Soshi of cheating at the Bowman's Wager in the bluntest way he could. This is Rokugan, "talk shit get hit" is basically a pillar of their legal system.

    Edit:
    Buuuut he doubtless has some kickass Yoritomo Bushi around to hide behind since apparently he's all talk.

    Yoritomo Rumina is no longer pleased with her cowardly punk relative.
     
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