In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

[The Laurent]

He is not wearing swords, no. Nor can you recall seeing him wear them in the past.

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You know, it'd be a mistake to do so, but in a way it'd be a very tempting mistake.

I mean, besides accusing us of being corrupt cheaters, he's accusing us of being a *bad Samurai*.

Someone who could not possibly have done well on his own, and thus must have been cheating.

He just accused Soshi of cheating at the Bowman's Wager in the bluntest way he could. This is Rokugan, "talk shit get hit" is basically a pillar of their legal system.

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The problem is, if he did so he knew it.

If he knew it, he had a plan for if he was called on for it.

That plan might involve having a champion slice and dice us.

On the other hand, if we shift the matter into one of not just honor but skill, we could gain the side of the crowd. I mean, saying, "We're just that good of a warrior, are you doubting my warrior prowess?" is something where the only answers are, "No I'm not" and "Yes, we shall duel."

 

[A Nation's Virtue]

Frankly that's just what he'd want. We'd be completely overreacting to what he's saying.

Okay, first off.

People who know the lore: who can call on the Kamis to do that? It wouldn't be just anyone, right?

And wouldn't such an action be noticeable?

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Only shugenja (generally).The thing is that Arrow's Flight is a Mastery 1 (Air) spell, meaning you only need to beat TN 10 to cast, so it's really easy for basically anyone to cast.

Doing this would be easy for most shugenja who don't have an Air deficiency, and we have one with us. Of course, intervening with magic could be basically noticed by any shugenja who thought to check, unless we had a Soshi Shugenja on hand to cast. Those can cast non-damaging spells without leaving any outward trace of a spell being cast.

 

[whydoyoubother]

Well....

We could always challenge him to duel over the insult.

This is Shiro Matsu, the home crowd would prefer to see some blood.

@Maugan Ra is this guy wearing a katana & wazikashi?

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The Yoritomo School which favours intimidating people is a courtier-school. If he is really brave, he carries a Katana. Which means he is confident enough to wear it around LIONS while being a squishy pirate-courtier. Or he has a murderer in his hire/retinue to duel for him (more likely).

 

[gman391]

[x] "I am impressed Yoritomo-san by your audacity. Truly, to proclaim that the Lion Priests are inferior to the Scorpion in their own court? If it wasn't so obviously wrong, I'd almost think you had a point. But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things. Yes let's accuse the Scorpion for the failure of my own bushi and hope no one notices I blatantly insulted my hosts...it is an unorthodox tactic if nothing else. Not one I would have used though."

A slight shrug.
"Still I suppose I should thank you for the compliment, to say we are so skilled and powerful, that must be quite the esteem you hold in us. But really you give me and my kinsmen too much credit."

 

[random_npc]

would simply restarting his argument in less forceful terms under the guise of being sure what he's saying so it can be seen for the nonsense it is be feasible ?

 

[The Laurent]

Only shugenja (generally).The thing is that Arrow's Flight is a Mastery 1 (Air) spell, meaning you only need to beat TN 10 to cast, so it's really easy for basically anyone to cast.

Doing this would be easy for most shugenja who don't have an Air deficiency, and we have one with us. Of course, intervening with magic could be basically noticed by any shugenja who thought to check, unless we had a Soshi Shugenja on hand to cast. Those can cast non-damaging spells without leaving any outward trace of a spell being cast.

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Huh, well, that's not helpful. Because we don't want to turn this into a big production. That's what he wants, because the very act of 'people are investigating it' is a negative thing.

[] "I am impressed Yoritomo-san by your audacity. Truly, to proclaim that the Lion Priests are inferior to the Scorpion in their own court? If it wasn't so obviously wrong, I'd almost think you had a point. But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things. Yes let's accuse the Scorpion for the failure of my own bushi and hope no one notices I blatantly insulted my hosts...it is an unorthodox tactic if nothing else. Not one I would have used though."

A slight shrug.
"Still I suppose I should thank you for the compliment, to say we are so skilled and powerful, that must be quite the esteem you hold in us. But really you give me and my kinsmen too much credit."

*****
There are large parts of it I dislike, but this...this right there, is a pretty interesting line of attack.

*****
Combining it could be interesting. "Are you really insulting your hosts by saying that they would not notice?" and "Are you really insulting me by saying I am not warrior enough? Please consider it."

Other possibly-choice lines, "For a man who talks about seeing through sophistry and lies about the Kami, you seem to insult your hosts when you assume that Lion Priests are deficient in skill and can be fooled, their contest rigged, so easily."

 

[Wade Garrett]

You know, it'd be a mistake to do so, but in a way it'd be a very tempting mistake.

I mean, besides accusing us of being corrupt cheaters, he's accusing us of being a *bad Samurai*.

Someone who could not possibly have done well on his own, and thus must have been cheating.


The problem is, if he did so he knew it.

If he knew it, he had a plan for if he was called on for it.

That plan might involve having a champion slice and dice us.

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I think we can discard the "might".

He's a Courtier of the "Yell until you get your way" school.

He was sent to Winter Court at Shiro Matsu.

The Mantis must have sent a monster to be his yojimbo because otherwise the story of his death kind of writes itself.

 

[Felius]

Yoritomo Courtiers basically revolve around intimidating other people into getting their way and being completely unflappable otherwise. The only way to win this game is to either not play or change the terms of how everything is being discussed.

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If you or your Yojimbo are good enough I suppose that there might also be the counter of being incredibly quick to challenge the Yoritomo to a duel over it.

Speaking of which, it could be a valid way to get out of this, although I'd keep that as a last resort. Too risky and too out of our area of specialization.

 

[The Laurent]

Okay, more ideas.

[] "Many who do not understand a subject dismiss it in their ignorance. Thus I am not surprised at your accusation, considering your comments, when all are aware that any competent Priest could easily detect such a trick. I myself respect the competence and skill of Lion Shujenga(sp) (Or would it be Priests), and their ability to detect any such deception, and find myself surprised and saddened that you do not hold an equal regard for our hosts such as I do."

(I'm not sure this works, but in the Display of Steel we showed ourselves to be a very good fighter, all things considered, and until the accusation with the Bowman's Wager right now, we actually have a pretty good reputation among the Lion as a Bushi, and not merely a courtier. We NEED to remind them that he's an unjumped courtier with no victories to his name, whereas we fought twice in the Display of Steel.)

-[] It is just as interesting that a man who does not carry a katana, and did not take part in the Display of Steel nor the Bowman's Wager as I did, seeks to doubt my own competence in this regard.
Possibly with an added something involving our martial prowess?

@Maugan Ra , we carry around a sword, right? And did he take part in the tournament earlier? The swordsmanship one, if you recall it? It was a while back, but I want to see if we can use it as a rub-it-in, "A non-warrior accuses a warrior of needing to cheat at competence, how droll" way.

 

[Felius]

The Mantis must have sent a monster to be his yojimbo because otherwise the story of his death kind of writes itself.

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Perhaps they were tired of him yelling at them to get what he wanted and send him to his death?

 

[Maugan Ra]

Yoritomo Harike is the only Mantis present at the court. His one companion is Tsuruchi Miyako, and at this point the Wasp are not actually part of the Mantis Clan.

Neither of them carries a katana on a regular basis.

 

[whydoyoubother]

Yoritomo Harike is the only Mantis present at the court. His one companion is Tsuruchi Miyako, and at this point the Wasp are not actually part of the Mantis Clan.

Neither of them carries a katana on a regular basis.

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This is more scary than it should be. who is he going to summon out of his hat all of a sudden?
Wait. Crud. If he accuses us that we were cheating at Bowshooting, he might twist the duel to be arrows.... against the Wasp who acts as his champion.
That -would- hurt.
And restore the Wasps honor as the superior bowman.

.... which means he will have us admitting that we cheated (with evil scorpion magic) and probably shot full of arrows while the Wasp takes the day.

 

[Felius]

This is more scary than it should be. who is he going to summon out of his hat all of a sudden?
Wait. Crud. If he accuses us that we were cheating at Bowshooting, he might twist the duel to be arrows.... against the Wasp who acts as his champion.
That -would- hurt.
And restore the Wasps honor as the superior bowman.

.... which means he will have us admitting that we cheated (with evil scorpion magic) and probably shot full of arrows while the Wasp takes the day.

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I don't quite think he can change the duel to anything other than standard Iaijutsu without our agreement. More likely, he'd try to see if anyone from the other clans are interested in trying to murder the hell out of a Scorpion.

 

[Sirrocco]

This is more scary than it should be. who is he going to summon out of his hat all of a sudden?
Wait. Crud. If he accuses us that we were cheating at Bowshooting, he might twist the duel to be arrows.... against the Wasp who acts as his champion.
That -would- hurt.
And restore the Wasps honor as the superior bowman.

.... which means he will have us admitting that we cheated (with evil scorpion magic) and probably shot full of arrows while the Wasp takes the day.

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Nope. Crane court dominance over the generations says that you can pretty much always push matters of honor to iajutsu duels.

[x] gman391
-[x] Spend a void point.


I can't think of any changes that I'm sure would be beneficial. Let's see how this rolls.

Guess we're going with "not so much" on being friends with the Mantis. That's okay, though. We can start by disassembling them a few notches, then circle back. Certainly, given that Yasuki Mia was offering him fire support, it behooves us to try to make him less appealing as a partner if we're trying to befriend the Crab.

 

[The Laurent]

Nope. Crane court dominance over the generations says that you can pretty much always push matters of honor to iajutsu duels.

[x] gman391
-[x] Spend a void point.


I can't think of any changes that I'm sure would be beneficial. Let's see how this rolls.

Guess we're going with "not so much" on being friends with the Mantis. That's okay, though. We can start by disassembling them a few notches, then circle back. Certainly, given that Yasuki Mia was offering him fire support, it behooves us to try to make him less appealing as a partner if we're trying to befriend the Crab.

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Ninja'd before I even hit the reply button, but this is what I was typing:

Well, in an attempt to spur conversation rather than have everyone wait around for a tiny squid to save us all, what does anyone think about my proposed very-rough-draft start of a counter-attack?

[] "Many who do not understand a subject dismiss it in their ignorance. Thus I am not surprised at your accusation, considering your comments, when all are aware that any competent Priest could easily detect such a trick. I myself respect the competence and skill of Lion Shujenga(sp) (Or would it be Priests), and their ability to detect any such deception, and find myself surprised and saddened that you do not hold an equal regard for our hosts such as I do."

*****
Let me say that I think that gman's response might backfire and I think we need to play it in a little different way, and think that calling back to his disdain for, like, actually not being a fucking moron (it only comes off as intimidating directness because he rolled well) would put it all into context.

 

[Sirrocco]

Ninja'd before I even hit the reply button, but this is what I was typing:

Well, in an attempt to spur conversation rather than have everyone wait around for a tiny squid to save us all, what does anyone think about my proposed very-rough-draft start of a counter-attack?

[] "Many who do not understand a subject dismiss it in their ignorance. Thus I am not surprised at your accusation, considering your comments, when all are aware that any competent Priest could easily detect such a trick. I myself respect the competence and skill of Lion Shujenga(sp) (Or would it be Priests), and their ability to detect any such deception, and find myself surprised and saddened that you do not hold an equal regard for our hosts such as I do."

*****
Let me say that I think that gman's response might backfire and I think we need to play it in a little different way, and think that calling back to his disdain for, like, actually not being a fucking moron (it only comes off as intimidating directness because he rolled well) would put it all into context.

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If there is anyone out there waiting for the tiny squid to save them, the tiny squid has already voted @gman391. Your vote is basically making the same argument as gman's, but it's a lot less visceral, and fails to attack. I think your write-in will collapse under the weight of the opponent's attack, *especially* since everyone has seen us hesitate (and the room has started to turn against us). This is his area of strength. We cannot defeat him by directly opposing him with an appeal to intellect. On the other hand, gman's "You realize you just insulted all of the Lion, don't you?" forces him to do something other than attack - taking him out of his ridiculously overpowered Intimidate+Willpower dicepool. At that point, anything he does opens up additional vulnerabilities.

Basically, I don't think we can afford to be conservative here. His attack format is designed to crush the defenses of those who attempt to fight defensively.

 

[The Laurent]

If there is anyone out there waiting for the tiny squid to save them, the tiny squid has already voted @gman391. Your vote is basically making the same argument as gman's, but it's a lot less visceral, and fails to attack. I think your write-in will collapse under the weight of the opponent's attack, *especially* since everyone has seen us hesitate (and the room has started to turn against us). This is his area of strength. We cannot defeat him by directly opposing him with an appeal to intellect. On the other hand, gman's "You realize you just insulted all of the Lion, don't you?" forces him to do something other than attack - taking him out of his ridiculously overpowered Intimidate+Willpower dicepool. At that point, anything he does opens up additional vulnerabilities.

Basically, I don't think we can afford to be conservative here. His attack format is designed to crush the defenses of those who attempt to fight defensively.

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That is a point, but honestly, outside of the argument over the specific words...:

I think if we want to get the room back, we can and should draw attention to the fact that we're a proven and respected Bushi who proved themselves in the Display of Steel and carries around a sword, while he's an upjumped courtier coward who has never proved his skill at anything other than insulting his hosts and everyone around him and display profound and endless ignorance at every point and time.

Force the Lion here to realize, "Wait a second, that Mantis is a fucking priss."

Sure, in a logical sense it's not actually relevant to our argument, but who gives a fuck.

He just accused a confirmed and skilled warrior of having to cheat when he's clearly a novice, weak idiot blowing off his mouth.

Finding a way to add that in to any vote we decide on (whether mine or his or something completely different) will only strengthen how the Lion reacts to what we have to say.

 

[whydoyoubother]

I don't quite think he can change the duel to anything other than standard Iaijutsu without our agreement.

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I hope you are right, but there comes the catch. If he has no bushi with him, he will default to "it should be something both sides can do". We did suprisingly awesome at the bow-shooting so we can not claim that we are incapable of doing it. Pushing Iaijutsu would give him ammunition that we fear to fight on "equal grounds".
Maybe i am reading too much into it. It is, however, what i would do if i were this Yoritomo with a wasp in my pocket and no katanas on ourselves and wanted to get rid of a scorpion.

[x] gman391

 

[Wade Garrett]

He doesn't have that option.

Maybe if we were in Wasp lands, but the Crane have worked long and hard to make sure the way these things are settled is "Katanas & Iaijitsu."

Going "Well my bushi can't sword you must fight them with arrows" is basically him pooping into his hand and throwing it in the Tsurichi's face in front of the whole court in that scenario.

 

[Felius]

That is a point, but honestly, outside of the argument over the specific words...:

I think if we want to get the room back, we can and should draw attention to the fact that we're a proven and respected Bushi who proved themselves in the Display of Steel and carries around a sword, while he's an upjumped courtier coward who has never proved his skill at anything other than insulting his hosts and everyone around him and display profound and endless ignorance at every point and time.

Force the Lion here to realize, "Wait a second, that Mantis is a fucking priss."

Sure, in a logical sense it's not actually relevant to our argument, but who gives a fuck.

He just accused a confirmed and skilled warrior of having to cheat when he's clearly a novice, weak idiot blowing off his mouth.

Finding a way to add that in to any vote we decide on (whether mine or his or something completely different) will only strengthen how the Lion reacts to what we have to say.

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It's worth noting that being a Courtier is perfectly well respected and fine and honorable. It's not greater or lesser than being a warrior, just different specializations. At most some clans do put more importance in one or the other, but even then, not quite that much, given that in the end, both do need the support of the other. As such, attacking him for not being a warrior doesn't really have much to go on: We could imply he's talking outside his matter of specialization, but that's quite the weak argument, plus he can do the same to us, given that he can argue that it's ultimately a matter of the Kami and we are not Shugenja either.

 

[Sirrocco]

I think if we want to get the room back, we can and should draw attention to the fact that we're a proven and respected Bushi who proved themselves in the Display of Steel and carries around a sword, while he's an upjumped courtier coward who has never proved his skill at anything other than insulting his hosts and everyone around him and display profound and endless ignorance at every point and time.

Force the Lion here to realize, "Wait a second, that Mantis is a fucking priss."

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Or.... it could backfire horribly, since it means that we're responding to him insulting the entire Kitsu family by insulting the entire Ikoma family.

Now, we've been insulted. We could absolutely respond to said insult with a challenge to a duel... but that has *issues*. Specifically, we're not a Kakita. We have decent dueling stats, mostly due to our heavily pumped Reflexes, but they're not excellent. If he somehow managed to rope in the Dragon (unlikely, but possible) we'd lose. If he got the Crab (possible, though expensive) we'd probably lose. If he grabbed the Unicorn (entirely possible, based on our earlier debate alongside the Phoenix)... maybe 50/50? Mostly, though, I trust that he's competent enough that he wouldn't directly and blatantly insult the honor of our clan without some manner of iajutsu support that he felt confident in backing him up. We're Scorpion, so we don't *have* to leap immediately into a challenge on such things like a Lion would, but we certainly could, if we chose to.

Really, I expect it would be the Crab. There are two Crab Bushi, and one of them already defeated us once in the Test of Steel. As Crab (led by a Yasuki), it's entirely plausible that they'd be willing to lay down their lives one by one in exchange for sufficient donations to the defenses on the Wall. The Mantis *have* that kind of resource, and they crave respect. I'd absolutely be willing to believe that he'd lay down large amounts of cash in order to make people fear him. I'd further guess that he's been lying a bit low up until now, from the Crane going down (as they would have been his first choice for source of murderblender) and the combination of getting a strong enough in with the Crab and losing the Bowman's Wager would be the things that pushed him on the attack now. He needs a win. He's trying to take one. Let's see what we can do about that.

 

[gman391]

@The Laurent

"Still I suppose I should thank you for the compliment, to say we are so skilled and powerful, that must be quite the esteem you hold in us. But really you give me and my kinsmen too much credit."

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Instead of the above would this work to assuage your concerns?

"Still I suppose I should thank you for the compliment, to say we are so skilled and powerful, that must be quite the esteem you hold in us. Still even if you were impressed by my showing in the Challenge of Steel to give me such praise, it is too much I assure you"

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Hmm still not happy but seems to fit.

 

[Felius]

@The Laurent


Instead of the above would this work to assuage your concerns?


Hmm still not happy but seems to fit.

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Honestly I prefer the first one. The second becomes a bit too specific on what matters we are "skilled and powerful", with the mention of the Challenge of Steel, when those matters are not really relevant to the subject at hand.

 

[reignonyrparade]

[x] "I am impressed Yoritomo-san by your audacity. Truly, to proclaim that the Lion Priests are inferior to the Scorpion in their own court? If it wasn't so obviously wrong, I'd almost think you had a point. But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things. Yes let's accuse the Scorpion for the failure of my own bushi and hope no one notices I blatantly insulted my hosts...it is an unorthodox tactic if nothing else. Not one I would have used though."

 

[The Laurent]

Hmm, I think people are addressing my concerns pretty well and think that the first one is better. I still think, well, that the danger is that we need to play to the crowd here to some extent.

Our response (currently winning) feels very scorpion-y in a way...which is a good thing in some circumstances, but we're currently trying to buck an accusation of being slimy dishonorables, and all.

It's why in general the turning of the, 'Are you insulting the Lion' is important, but it'd be interesting if we could find a way to take the 'We're more Lion than you' ground, because right now he's being a blunt blusterer and that's helping him, but if we can somehow attack the underpinning of the bluster...hrm, not sure.

I have ideas, but not solutions.

And even the ideas are somewhat vague.

Hmm, specific criticisms.

"If it wasn't so obviously wrong, I'd think you had a point" feels like a weak line. Or at least, if we're going to go aggressive, I think we can do better. Maybe mention his own judgement earlier, to tie it into the attack-and-thrust we had going earlier.

"It is obviously wrong, founded upon a rather bold ignorance, yet I suppose it is typical..." Not sure if that's actually any better, but I'm trying to think of ways to tie all of his statements in a bow. Like, if he actually believed anything he's said up until the accusation, he's such an idiot in the matter of the Kami that he needs to be kept away from sharp corners and kept in a padded cell.

He has not even the slightest trace of credibility to even begin to speak on matters involving Kami, and I almost want to find a way to rub his nose in it while not digressing too much.

I mean, admittedly, we aren't an expert either, but the proud ignorance he's displayed in this conversation regarding anything at all is something that could only play well if nobody stops to think about it, and especially in context of this being a Lion gathering.