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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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[x] gman391
- [x] do not spend a void point

Just because the Yoritomo don't have anyone who can duel us in a iaijutsu match doesn't mean that none of their allies do. I still think 'back off or I cut you' is a good idea, but let's save that void point in case the Lion or the Crab decide to stick their blades in.
 
@The Laurent
The issue is that we need to be short, sharp and quick. Which prevents us from addressing everything we can in a single set of lines.
I'd love to construct a long monologue about how he's a jackass...but he's just going to interrupt something like that, so we need to take the offensive and fast, put him on the defensive, let Tani get back in there by saying 'Of course the Kitsu are boss' and so on.
 
gman391 said:
@The Laurent

Instead of the above would this work to assuage your concerns?

Hmm still not happy but seems to fit.
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I, too, prefer the first version. Let's not even bring dueling into it.

The Laurent said:
Our response (currently winning) feels very scorpion-y in a way...which is a good thing in some circumstances, but we're currently trying to buck an accusation of being slimy dishonorables, and all.

It's why in general the turning of the, 'Are you insulting the Lion' is important, but it'd be interesting if we could find a way to take the 'We're more Lion than you' ground, because right now he's being a blunt blusterer and that's helping him, but if we can somehow attack the underpinning of the bluster...hrm, not sure.
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So, we're Scorpion. That means that we *can* sidestep this insult. Should we? Well, unfortunately, I think we kind of have to. Reread the exchange. The more direct insult to our family's honor was from Yasuki Mia, and her yojimbo will kill us. The Mantis only presented a hypothetical example of something that she might mean. He presents it as implication, rather than direct accusation,a nd tehn asks us straight-up if we are too honorable to stoop to such things. We straight-up can't say that we're not. If our leadership had ordered us to cheat in the Bowman's Wager, we would have, and everyone in the room knows it. That means that any form of standing on honor short of a duel challenge is a weak response to his accusation... and our Honor isn't as shiny as it used to be regardless. Maybe if it were 7, we could pull something like that off, but at 4? Not so much.

That means we pretty much have to play to type. It *is* unfortunate, because it involves acting very non-Matsu at the Matsu court, but I think it's our best bet.
 
[x] gman391
- [x] do not spend a void point

The trick is to slip the blow such that it hits a Kitsu in the face, and the Matsu will hopefully care little about whom it was originally aimed at.
 
A Nation's Virtue said:
Yoritomo Courtiers basically revolve around intimidating other people into getting their way and being completely unflappable otherwise. The only way to win this game is to either not play or change the terms of how everything is being discussed.

Of course, the problem here is that he undoubtedly has high Willpower and so is good on defense and attack so long as he keeps intimidating everyone into listening to him.
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So...Rokugani Trump?
 
gman391 said:
[x] "I am impressed Yoritomo-san by your audacity. Truly, to proclaim that the Lion Priests are inferior to the Scorpion in their own court? If it wasn't so obviously wrong, I'd almost think you had a point. But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things. Yes let's accuse the Scorpion for the failure of my own bushi and hope no one notices I blatantly insulted my hosts...it is an unorthodox tactic if nothing else. Not one I would have used though."

A slight shrug.
"Still I suppose I should thank you for the compliment, to say we are so skilled and powerful, that must be quite the esteem you hold in us. But really you give me and my kinsmen too much credit."
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What I might consider would be to omit the "But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things." bit. Perhaps a bit too overtly insulting, and if they were trying to get us to challenge them to a duel we would be giving cause for them to challenge us instead.
 
Felius said:
What I might consider would be to omit the "But I suppose it is typical for the Mantis to bluster their way through things." bit. Perhaps a bit too overtly insulting, and if they were trying to get us to challenge them to a duel we would be giving cause for them to challenge us instead.
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Might it be better to make a personal insult instead? "But I suppose considering how you've acted that it's typical for you to bluster your way through things." Or would that still be duel-worthy?
 
The Laurent said:
Might it be better to make a personal insult instead? "But I suppose considering how you've acted that it's typical for you to bluster your way through things." Or would that still be duel-worthy?
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Probably worse. Right now, we've descended to a certain level of rudeness between us - the Yasuki have straight-up claimed that the Scorpion have done many dishonorable things int eh past, and he's implied heavily that we personally did one int eh present. I don't *think* that that particular claim is going to give him much of a pretext for dueling - and the level of pretext is going to be important at least as far as getting iajutsu support. Still....

@Maugan Ra - could we get an etiquette check on this one?
 
I don't think, in the current situation, a purely personal insult is even possible. He's acting as a representative of his Clan, at this moment his actions are the actions of the Mantis. Sirrocco is right, it'd probably be worse.
 
As a sidenote: We probably should see if we can leverage the spy networks we have access through proxy to check out the delegations particularly hostile to us. Even they are not involved in some great overarching plot against us, I'd rather keep track of them even if only to avoid getting sucker punched. :p
 
Felius said:
As a sidenote: We probably should see if we can leverage the spy networks we have access through proxy to check out the delegations particularly hostile to us. Even they are not involved in some great overarching plot against us, I'd rather keep track of them even if only to avoid getting sucker punched. :p
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It's potentially useful, but I get the impression that our spy network can basically work on hunting the Nothing or hunting the rebels/kolat or trying to track down things on the other delegations. They can't do but so much, and we've had other priorities.
 
@gman391 do you think throwing some Sorte of insult for their present would be interesting?

like "oh, that's why you gave the spy glass, you believed theyes should be more awara of what is happening"
 
Something else to note , the question is what does he want to gain from this? Where the Scorpions his target , or more likely the Phoenix as he was concentrating on her at first after all. Based on the writeup if I remember it right there is nothing to gain directly from this for the Mantis despite there preference for rivers of road travel unless he wants to make more trouble for the pass.
 
The Phoenix and the Mantis have beef.
Two years later in canon time, the Mantis invade the Phoenix lands feeling that the Phoenix are too weak to stop them and that their Imperial Charter gives them permission to do so. Yoritomo was persuaded to do this by the Lying Darkness. It may well be that we are seeing the seeds of this being laid.

No way to prove it though.
 
gman391 said:
The Phoenix and the Mantis have beef.
Two years later in canon time, the Mantis invade the Phoenix lands feeling that the Phoenix are too weak to stop them and that their Imperial Charter gives them permission to do so. Yoritomo was persuaded to do this by the Lying Darkness. It may well be that we are seeing the seeds of this being laid.

No way to prove it though.
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Do the Phoenix kick their asses in canon?
 
In the end the Elemental Guard and Shiba are able to over come the Mantis but not before they take Kyuden Asako.

Round two Electric Bugaloo 40 years later is more mixed ending in a draw.
 
So, what does he gain?
- He lost a *lot* compared to what he expected to get in the Bowman's wager. He needs a win if he's going to be able to compete at all. That's especially the case because this was supposed to be the thing that his delegation got instead of, for example, the Display of Steel.
- He also lost a fair bit when the Kakita went down. He was supposed to have the Crane as natural allies, and then they turned more to us, and now the only one that's left is focused more on hunting shadows than on anything having to do with the Mantis.
- In retrospect, the topic we raised basically just rubbed his nose in the whole Bowman's Wager thing, so now he's going to see if he can regain lost glory by taking a chunk out of both us and the Phoenix. If he hadn't, he would have lost even *more* standing - something he really can't afford right now.
- He's in direct competition with us. Trade that goes through Beiden Pass is trade that isn't going through his boats. The more he can undermine us (and, by extension, the pass), the more resources he can pull in trade-wise.
- He has a relationship with the Crab to solidify and strengthen. He's probably flirting pretty heavily with Yasuki Mia. He seems like her type.
- We've been responsible for... a lot of things. We've gained heavily for our age and apparent expertise, and for a while he couldn't really touch us because he'd have to go through Bayushi Kimoko to get to us, and she's a serious hard counter for the sorts of tactics he prefers to use. Unfortunately, we're not nearly as good at it, and he knows it - which means that he can by comparison gain mroe by tearing more out of us.
- He's being brash, aggressive, and ambitious - taking the risky play with enough force and trying to ride the wave until it pays off. This is what the Mantis do.

@Maugan Ra - Another question. It had seemed like if you were a bushi, you pretty much had to carry a katana or be utterly disrespected. Courtiers and Shugenja could get away with not wearing them (and, by extension, with callign champions when challenged) but Bushi didn't have that option. Is that not the case?
 
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