In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

I'm unconvinced the Crane situation is a problem we can solve swiftly, period. It was presented to us at the start of the Winter Court and would seem to represent an overarching plot thread rather than a sidequest, especially considering how simple our initial objectives have turned out to be thanks to our Bayushi lady.
 
@Maugan Ra - a question I *think* I have asked before, but am not certain of... how long would the turnaround time likely be on a letter from us to, say, the Scorpion reps at wherever it is that the Crane Can Champion is holding Winter Court and back?

Also, the previously asked question - is there the basic expectation that the Clan Champion would write his own correspondence? If we proved that the handwritign was different, would that actually mean anything?

Also, I'll admit that primemountain's response to the Wren question is pretty awesome, and I suspect I'll be modifying my vote accordingly. I'd forgotten briefly about that Dangerous Beauty kicker.
 
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Ok, final modifications made. Should be lot subtler, and far less pushy. I think that is as good as I am going to get it. Unless someone has a better idea?

@Sirrocco : What I would love to do, is buy Investegation 3, then roll it for what we would need to prove the letter is forged. That seems the most sensible thing to do, since we know jack !#$! about forgery.
 
@Maugan Ra - a question I *think* I have asked before, but am not certain of... how long would the turnaround time likely be on a letter from us to, say, the Scorpion reps at wherever it is that the Crane Can Champion is holding Winter Court and back?

Also, the previously asked question - is there the basic expectation that the Clan Champion would write his own correspondence? If we proved that the handwritign was different, would that actually mean anything?

Also, I'll admit that primemountain's response to the Wren question is pretty awesome, and I suspect I'll be modifying my vote accordingly. I'd forgotten briefly about that Dangerous Beauty kicker.

The Crane Clan Champion, Doji Kuwanan, is likely holding his Winter Court in Kyuden Doji. Judging by the maps I have, that's about 150 miles away, give or take a bit, but the route there runs along one of the Empire's main trade routes and is very well maintained.

In winter, a message carried by courier could be expected to take roughly a week each way, plus however long the turn-around is for the recipient to consider their answer and write a proper letter back.

The only other option for long-range communication is magic. Yogo Hanzo informs you that skilled Shugenja can invoke the Kami of the Air to carry a verbal message perhaps a minute or so long to a designated recipient. He himself does not know the required prayers, and apparently it's not a kind of magic that lends itself well to the specialized techniques of the Yogo family. You'd want a Soshi for that, and even then only the most experienced and powerful among their number would be able to communicate across such distances.

(Note that within their own territory, the Scorpion like to set up a network of Soshi Shugenja at every major castle or way station, so they can pass critical information around rapidly.)

As for the handwriting... sort of. A Clan Champion would probably delegate a lot of their letter writing to subordinates, but if such was done then it would be the subordinate who signed for it - they'd say 'The Champion instructs you...' rather than 'I command you'. As a side effect of their reverence for testimony, Rokugani are reluctant to allow anyone else to pretend to be them for anything remotely official. So it depends on whether Mariko's orders were signed by the Champion or not, and if you can gain access to something with which to compare them.
 
Added the bit about asking Genji for an example of the seal imprint. Saw it was clear in my head we were asking for it, and nowhere in the vote. Whoops.
 
Hmm... I kinda feel like we're rushing into this still.

Plus, I just kinda feel like we should maybe get Bayushi-sama's Okay on this before we go ahead with it?

I mean, would our leader tell us to go for it, or what? Also just feels like it's the sort of plot that, well, shows our hand a lot...

Plus, uh. It involves a Crane being asked by a Scorpion to be shown a very important document and um yeah...
 
And more edits. I think a Scorpion has plausible denial or not, and their ability to have it have nothing to do with what actually happened, and everything to do with how well they lie.
 
Okay. @primemountain's vote looks like it's beating mine by a fair margin. That's cool, since it looks like it's a solid vote, and that means I can relax into the kibitz/suggestion role rather than having to worry about further tweaks in my own plan.

- As previously noted, I think the Wren vote is awesome, and I don't want to touch it lest I in some way reduce that awesome. I am, at times, insufficiently bold. This was clearly one of those times.
- Would change "we also need' to "we could also use" on the seal. We're humbly requesting this rather than demanding it, and I honestly *expect* the seal to be good, or at least very well faked. I expect Doji Mariko to know what her Champion's seal looks like, and there's any number of ways that various conspirators might get that thing applied briefly. I don't expect her to know what his handwriting looks like, and the only way they're going to be able to fake that is with highly skilled forgers (which, admittedly, they might have).
- I'm not sure about your approach on the letter. First, I don't really understand what you even mean with the brush kit. Second... Doji Mariko appears to be entirely unwilling to openly accept the possibility that the letter might be forged. Even allowing for the possibility challenges everything about the way she has been taught to lead her life. That's why I'd suggested my own gambit. It's far easier for her to openly acknowledge that her villainous (but caring) Scorpion believes heretical ideas and wishes to check them out of a (clearly false, but sympathetic) desire to see to her safety. It gives her a reason to let us do this that doesn't require her to first acknowledge that we might be right.
- I almost want to pull Daidoji Chen in on this instead/first/as well. As a Daidoji, I suspect he might have a bit more willingness to accept the idea of forged orders. The real problem there is that it requires admitting to him that she told us this stuff. That might not work so well.
 
I would prefer to pull the Kakita...

He will be much more willing to protect her than the Daidoji.

And with him we don't even need to sat that she told us, but just to comment on how the Crane behavior is strange and mention that we only know of things like this, when there is a plot in the works.

Let him act on his own to protect her... be by taking the blame, be by getting us the letter.
 
And it raises the issue of if Chen's in on it.
Yeah, that too. I don't *think* he is, but....

Actually, my narrative senses are telling me that this is a parallel to the Crane Civil War in OTL, where the Shadow set the Crane Clan against itself by mucking with orders sent out by the Crane Clan Champion so that his commander in the field thought he was following orders while the Champion thought he was showing *deep* disloyalty, but that's by no means certain - and I know a fair number of QMs who, if they know you're leaning too hard on narrative senses (to the point of cheating with them), will *burn* you for it.
 
- I'm not sure about your approach on the letter. First, I don't really understand what you even mean with the brush kit. Second... Doji Mariko appears to be entirely unwilling to openly accept the possibility that the letter might be forged. Even allowing for the possibility challenges everything about the way she has been taught to lead her life. That's why I'd suggested my own gambit. It's far easier for her to openly acknowledge that her villainous (but caring) Scorpion believes heretical ideas and wishes to check them out of a (clearly false, but sympathetic) desire to see to her safety. It gives her a reason to let us do this that doesn't require her to first acknowledge that we might be right.
- I almost want to pull Daidoji Chen in on this instead/first/as well. As a Daidoji, I suspect he might have a bit more willingness to accept the idea of forged orders. The real problem there is that it requires admitting to him that she told us this stuff. That might not work so well.
The idea of the brush kit and the pile of parchment is the same idea as On. It allows her to preserve face. You say:"Doji Mariko appears to be entirely unwilling to openly accept the possibility that the letter might be forged". And that is what we avoid with this. Yes we will know, and she will know. But she can pretend she misplaced the letter into our brush kit and parchments, perhaps when storing ours with hers until she could arrange for its return. Or it might have been put there by a friendly Kami, or even a trickster. We give her a way to preserve her appearance of ignorance and innocence. Because when she places the letter into our stuff, no one will be there to see it. She can even plausibly claim we somehow stole it if needed.

As for Chen while I would like to approach him for his Daidoji-ness or Kakita for his willingness to oppose Marikos orders, but these are not contacts that are sufficiently developed for this kind of move. They are our back up mid-term plans if Doji cannot be brought around to the idea. Hell, even if Doji just tells us where she keeps the letter, and leaves us unattended in the room that is good enough for us. She does not have to give us the letter, merely not actively oppose us in taking it.

Essentially, my vote regarding Doji is to test the waters, and jump in if she is inviting us in. I am not trying to force the solution on her, I am giving her the signal that I am open to a solution that she can live with, if she wants us to check the letter, but does not know how to go about it without losing face. I would be perfectly fine if she suggested a method that the Kami might use for certain items to mysteriously find their way into our possession.

At least, that is what I am going for.
 
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Actually, my narrative senses are telling me that this is a parallel to the Crane Civil War in OTL, where the Shadow set the Crane Clan against itself by mucking with orders sent out by the Crane Clan Champion so that his commander in the field thought he was following orders while the Champion thought he was showing *deep* disloyalty, but that's by no means certain - and I know a fair number of QMs who, if they know you're leaning too hard on narrative senses (to the point of cheating with them), will *burn* you for it.
Here is the thing. Trusting OTL is just bad playing. Hell, i've read that the DaiDoji are supposed to be protective about the Doji, and that it is a part of their very Name, but I would still ask for a Lore roll before assuming that to be true. Go with IC knowledge, anything you suspect may be OC knowledge check IC and you should be pretty good. It is just simpler, easier on the players and the DM/QM, and it is just polite and proper comunication.
 
Hell, i've read that the DaiDoji are supposed to be protective about the Doji, and that it is a part of their very Name, but I would still ask for a Lore roll before assuming that to be true.
...why? The history behind the creation of the family is well known to any samurai with an education.

I get that it's an example, but that's honestly a pretty bad one to pick.
 
Ahhh. Okay. I can see that, I suppose... but I get the feeling that the brush kit thing may be solving the wrong problem. My read on things is that she thinks it dishonorable to even entertain the idea that it might have been forged. Of course, some part of her *does* have these suspicions, but she suppresses them ruthlessly, and feels guilty about them (and trapped, because those part of her see the trap, and cannot get the rest of her to do anything about them). To me, that means that we can potentially get her cooperation, but we first have to provide her a reasonably compelling reason that does not in any way require her to admit that there is even a possibility that the letter is falsified. to the degree we can do that, she will be strongly inclined to help, because she *does* have the bit that wants badly to be saved. If we can't do that, though, the bit that's been doing the clamping down will thwart us - that sort of internal struggle tends to strengthen both sides of the internal emotional argument.

Now, my answer was... weak. "Hey, my Scorpion boyfriend who cares about me has Scorpion suspicions, and it is a kindness to him to allow him to ally them" is very elegant as a reason that appeals to her feeling-trapped bits while not triggering her must-not-doubt bits. The problem is that showing confidential missives because your Scorpion boyfriend is feeling paranoid is in and of itself pretty dishonorable. It's well-formed, but not nearly a strong enough reason for what we're asking. I fear, though, that your argument will run smack dab up against her unwillingness to acknowledge that it could be true and fail there.

I almost wonder if we might not have some stories of this sort of thing happening in the past. @Maugan Ra - do we have stories from the Scorpion clan of various ancestors falling afoul of treacherous modifications or forgeries of official documents? If we could instead present it as stories from the past, then we could sidle in on getting her to accept that that sort of thing might conceivably happen to someone, and from there get her to admit the possibility that it might be happening to her.
 
I almost wonder if we might not have some stories of this sort of thing happening in the past. @Maugan Ra - do we have stories from the Scorpion clan of various ancestors falling afoul of treacherous modifications or forgeries of official documents? If we could instead present it as stories from the past, then we could sidle in on getting her to accept that that sort of thing might conceivably happen to someone, and from there get her to admit the possibility that it might be happening to her.

You have plenty of such stories, yes. Your sensei were always keen to impress upon you that while absolute loyalty is a virtue, loyalty when you suspect you are being deceived is foolish.

Of course, some of the stories involve cunning Scorpion agents making modifications to the official communications of other Clans and exploiting the results. You should probably not use those ones.
 
I picked it because it is an extreme example. This:

The history behind the creation of the family is well known to any samurai with an education.

was never mentioned IC. Now it is a fair thing to say that since that is such an important part of the Daidoji family, the QM probably has not changed it, but you are assuming that history to be true with no agreement from the QM. You are making an assumption.Now mind you, it is a fair one. The QM has neither the time nor the reason to confirm everything.

The understanding between player and QM is based upon the idea that assumptions are made by both in good faith, based upon shared materials, like say the 4e Core Rules. It is when one side makes assumptions in bad faith, like say assuming that someone is behaving in some way because they did in the OTL, that people get burned. The whole system runs on faith, and abusing that kills the game quickly.

Mind you, we can get by with a lot of general lore because we have Int 4 and Sage. So general details are IC knowledge for us. But here is an interesting question for you, with a Lore of 0 and an Int of 2, what do you think a samurai would know about the great clans and their various families? What level of detail is sufficiently common that "any samurai with an education", as you frazed it, would know it? Because there are plenty of Samurai Schools that do not give you Lore(Great Clan).


Um, Sirrocco? How? What? Why?
My read on things is that she thinks it dishonorable to even entertain the idea that it might have been forged. Of course, some part of her *does* have these suspicions, but she suppresses them ruthlessly, and feels guilty about them (and trapped, because those part of her see the trap, and cannot get the rest of her to do anything about them).
Could you do some quote magic and help me see where you got that from? Maybe I just do not know the culture enough, but that seems downright foreign. My read on her is that she is trapped, and being a capable, independed operator, she knows it.

Do you think it an accident she told a Scorpion about her bizzare letter? And did so as if talking to herself? She just has been thought to allways, allways keep her On. Never break it. She's a Crane. Apperance is everything. The moment she felt she could trust us with it, she mentioned it to us, hopeing we would be amenable to investigating for her, what she herself, literally can not. There is no way for her to broach the topic and keep her On.

Mind you, the meeting to come will certanlly tell us more about her.

Here, have a quote:

It is not that those emotions are controlled, it is that they are not present at all. Indeed, if anything you would say that the Crane looks... resigned.

"I am a samurai. I serve at the command and pleasure of my lord. My life and death are his to do with as he wishes." She says quietly, still walking at a calm and measured pace. "It is not my place to doubt, or to question his motives. If I am given instruction and have no reason to doubt its authenticity, then it is my duty to carry it out."

She falls silent at that, and you find you have no words. Suddenly, you understand why your Clan has always scorned the more restrictive and limiting aspects of custom and etiquette, why they have embraced the shadows and all of their crafts with such dedication. A Scorpion would be able to admit the possibility that their orders were faked, that someone was attempting to exploit their loyalty. To you, there is no shame in such thinking, for your sensei made sure you were aware of such options even if you never learned to employ them personally.

But Mariko is a Crane. Not only would her training have made little to no mention of such tactics, she has likely been brought up to believe that even displaying knowledge of them or thinking of them as a possibility is dishonourable. If the letter does not appear obviously fraudulent (and the chances are delicate correspondence such as this would have been written in a genuine Clan cipher), then she has no viable way to pursue the investigation. Who could she ask to authenticate a letter from the Clan Champion? Who could she confess her doubts to without appearing disloyal? And even if there was such an avenue available, you suspect it would take time to pursue, and if it arrived while she was already en route to Shiro Matsu... well, no wonder she feels resigned. Able to see the trap around her, but denied any means of escaping it.

Except, perhaps, through you.

Slowly, you nod. "I see. An unfortunate situation, Doji-san."

This is why, when asking about it we say: "Imply that after she expressed her opinion, it seemed to confirm some information we had gathered and led to new clues." as well as the whole argument section if the soft sell does not work.
In the argument we are telling her that there is reason a doubt its authenticity. The argument bit is about convincing her we are on the trail of a possible plot to harm Rokugan by forgeing orders. Orders like hers. And that we need her letter to prove it, because we allready expect it to be forged.
 
With regards to Mariko's motivations, it's always worth remembering that some people really are just honourable. It's a perfectly Scorpion attitude to believe that Mariko is looking for a way to circumnavigate the demands of honour in order to save herself and advance her interests, but it's not guaranteed.

Anyway, can I please get someone to run the vote counting program for me? I'll leave open the discussion on what to do with regards to the Crane issue for now, as I'll stick the days spent training near the start of the week, but I'd like to get a tally of how we're breaking up your free time and what the XP is being spent on.
 
Is there any reason why we have to do this right now? I mean, we could report to Genji, let him know of the situation, and spend the next few day or so stabilizing our relationships with the Crane. After the debacle with Kakita, I would rather take some time to evaluate how that changed things with the Crane contingent, shoring up any cracks that might have formed and all that, before rocking the boat.

And, while a bit more dangerous, an alternative to getting information from the Crane directly might be to use our newly converted maid as an asset, perhaps locating where correspondence are being kept in the Crane quarters and going from there. I would be strongly against her actually taking any letters, but we could use her as a spy to get more information about the Crane and the setup of their domicile.
 
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