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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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Maugan Ra said:
With regards to Mariko's motivations, it's always worth remembering that some people really are just honourable. It's a perfectly Scorpion attitude to believe that Mariko is looking for a way to circumnavigate the demands of honour in order to save herself and advance her interests, but it's not guaranteed.
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That is fine, but the argument being made is not for her to circumnavigate the demands of honour in order to save herself and advance her interests, but in order to fulfill a greater duty and avert a greater threat.Saving her is just a bonus. In some ways, it is sacrificing her personal honor to serve the Empire. Again, a Scorpion way of looking at things and a perfectly reasonable one to take.

I mean I know she is a Crane, but surely she would not put her personal honor above the wellbeing of Rokugan. That would be the hight of dishonor. Right? :)

@kanemi: No we do not have to do this right now. Thus all the bits in the vote about testing the waters and giving her opportunities to give us a signal to back off. But I am not going to shut her out if she is internally screaming for help. We go in slow and careful, and see what is what. Delay brings its own risks.
 
My biggest concern is appearing two-faced to the Crane. Yeah, we have been presenting an honorable front, but we just told Mariko during the riddle segment that an honorable front doesn't necessarily mean having honorable intentions (well, that's her interpretation of our riddle, at least). With that lesson in mind, she considers the fact that we offered to champion her, getting information from her regarding her orders in the process. Then, as soon as Kakita confronts us about championing Mariko (and really, she has to be wondering in her heart of hearts why we REALLY want to champion her and if it is just a ploy), we essentially bow out.

Now, we are bringing up her orders again, wanting to see them, wanting her to leave us alone with them, etc. If she had more faith in us, I wouldn't be so concerned but, given she was questioning our motives just the other day, I am worried that pushing too hard is going to destroy everything that has been built.

@primemountain: I am fine with your approach for a 'how are we going to bring this up' write-in, but wonder if it might be better to save it for a second or third visit is all. I get the concerns with delays, but think that at least one visit that is spent reassuring the Crane that we hold no grudges, making sure that we haven't fallen in their estimation, and patching things up might make the eventual 'are you sure that your orders are genuine' confrontation go more smoothly.
 
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Ummm.

"Well gee, Mr. Kakita who hates me with the bone deep, gnawing hatred that only the man who has been NTR'd of his childhood crush can manage, I will give you a golden opportunity to cut my head off and go whoops katana slipped..."

That's a long way from essentially bowing out, I think.
 
primemountain said:
Um, Sirrocco? How? What? Why?

Could you do some quote magic and help me see where you got that from? Maybe I just do not know the culture enough, but that seems downright foreign. My read on her is that she is trapped, and being a capable, independet operator, she knows it.
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It's actually in the block you quoted.

Maugan Ra said:
"I am a samurai. I serve at the command and pleasure of my lord. My life and death are his to do with as he wishes." She says quietly, still walking at a calm and measured pace. "It is not my place to doubt, or to question his motives. If I am given instruction and have no reason to doubt its authenticity, then it is my duty to carry it out."
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So, first part of the problem: it is her duty to carry out the instruction without question. This constrains her behavior. It can be countered by giving her reason to doubt its authenticity - but that reason has to be strong enough to make her question a letter from her Clan Champion, from a cultural background where legal decisions are determined by testimony.

Maugan Ra said:
But Mariko is a Crane. Not only would her training have made little to no mention of such tactics, she has likely been brought up to believe that even displaying knowledge of them or thinking of them as a possibility is dishonorable.
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Second part of the problem. It is literally dishonorable for her to even entertain the idea that such things *might* have happened. This one may or may not be in effect, but it is far more pernicious if it is. Without it, we could at least discuss things - determine what evidence she might need to go forward, and so forth. With it, she is working hard to prevent herself from even entertaining the idea.

Maugan Ra said:
If the letter does not appear obviously fraudulent (and the chances are delicate correspondence such as this would have been written in a genuine Clan cipher), then she has no viable way to pursue the investigation. Who could she ask to authenticate a letter from the Clan Champion? Who could she confess her doubts to without appearing disloyal? And even if there was such an avenue available, you suspect it would take time to pursue, and if it arrived while she was already en route to Shiro Matsu... well, no wonder she feels resigned. Able to see the trap around her, but denied any means of escaping it.

Except, perhaps, through you.
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Third part of her problem. Even if she was not herself constrained from pursuing the issue, she has no resources that she could call on to pursue it with. Given that we *are* here, this is actually the easiest bit.

Maugan Ra said:
"Indeed." She says quietly. "And one I do not much wish to reflect upon. For now... ah, this must be the theater? Let us set aside such dire thoughts, and focus on appreciating the performance."
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And this is the bit that makes me think that the second part of the problem is in effect. She's coming as close as she can to outright asking us to help her, in desperation because she has no better options, but even having thus opened up, she's unwilling to talk about it further. To my eyes, that means that discussing it is awkward and uncomfortable to her - that she managed to get out the information she did though traditional Rokugani verbal chicanery and doublethink, but that she's not with it all the way. She's basically sneaking stuff past her own internal censors, and asking her to act (however deniably) in a way that goes against them directly without compelling support isn't going to go over all that well.

In retrospect, I think we might both being a bit too direct. It'll take time, yes, but a bit more talking around the problem would likely be good for all involved, if we can manage it. There will probably be at least another week or two before the next duel to the death, right?
 
Wade Garrett said:
Ummm.

"Well gee, Mr. Kakita who hates me with the bone deep, gnawing hatred that only the man who has been NTR'd of his childhood crush can manage, I will give you a golden opportunity to cut my head off and go whoops katana slipped..."

That's a long way from essentially bowing out, I think.
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The only way that we could have bowed out with any less danger to Naoto is if we agreed to Kakita, before the fight, that we would not champion Mariko, something that would have destroyed Naoto's image in court, ruining the carefully created image of an honorable and somewhat capable bushi. He had to fight if he wanted to maintain any standing in the court, and, considering that Naoto's boss is showing herself to be aggressive and bloodthirsty while Yogo is... well, a Yogo, Naoto needs to maintain some standing in order to court certain elements of the court that are not going to respond to Kimoko's martial prowess.

That being said, Naoto agreed to terms that anyone with a brain would recognize greatly favored the Kakita, but limited the damage as much as he could. Going from 'cannot continue' to 'first blood' grants him the greatest chance of survival. It is not without risk, but there are a number of different reasons why Naoto might have considered himself not to be in danger (Kakita probably wouldn't want to murder his love's date in front of her after Naoto offered to champion her in a deathmatch, Kakita probably knows of the Scorpion Clan's policy of disproportionate retribution and feared reprisal, etc.)

That being said, I am not saying that any of these were actual factors in the decision, but rather that, given that Naoto is from the Scorpion Clan, those dishonorable dogs, there is always going to be a suspicion of 'what's this guy's angle?'. Thus, considering we asked about Mariko's orders before, if we keep pushing that point, people will start saying 'that is his angle'.
 
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kanemi said:
That being said, I am not saying that any of these were actual factors in the decision, but rather that, given that Naoto is from the Scorpion Clan, those dishonorable dogs, there is always going to be a suspicion of 'what's this guy's angle?'. Thus, considering we asked about Mariko's orders before, if we keep pushing that point, people will start saying 'that is his angle'.
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Yeah... but it's moderated by the fact that she *wants* this to be our angle. We're the only way she possibly has out of this trap. For that matter, it's also well-explained by honestly carign for the woman. We were offended by the Matsu, and acted rashly (though romantically). When presented with a threat to the woman, we pried into it. Kakita Sekawa pointed out that we were about to get both us and the woman killed, so we accepted the honorable (but unpleasant) way out of that issue. Now we're back to working on this Crane thing that might get her killed in the long term. It all pretty much fits.
 
Getting her to give us the letter needs more time, else she'll just throw up her mental walls and we'll never get anywhere. So bringing it up now might not be the best idea. Give it a bit more time, and try to ply other angles first.
 
Sirrocco said:
Yeah... but it's moderated by the fact that she *wants* this to be our angle. We're the only way she possibly has out of this trap. For that matter, it's also well-explained by honestly carign for the woman. We were offended by the Matsu, and acted rashly (though romantically). When presented with a threat to the woman, we pried into it. Kakita Sekawa pointed out that we were about to get both us and the woman killed, so we accepted the honorable (but unpleasant) way out of that issue. Now we're back to working on this Crane thing that might get her killed in the long term. It all pretty much fits.
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Agreed, if you are looking at it from that angle, then everything you said does fit. I am not disputing that. My only question is if her desire to believe that Naoto has her well-being in mind and her desire to get out of the trap outweighs her duty to unquestionably obey her orders and her cultural suspicion of the Scorpion. My point, my only point, is that if we hold off for a day (or a few) on asking her about her orders and just focus on being with her for that day, then she is more likely to believe that we have her well-being in mind rather than just playing her.
 
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4.13 - Training Montage
  • Threadmarks
    • primemountain said:
    [x]"You are an honor to your family, Wren-san, but there is no debt. Your Uncle deserved Justice and it was my Honor to help give it. The Emperors Under-Hand is sworn to uncover and deal with such matters, from those plots targeting the whole of Rokugan, to those threatening a single member. While there are duties you could take on to further help the Empire, I will not force them upon you by some nonexistent debt. "Remove your mask and ask gently:"Do you want to serve the Emperors Under-Hand Wren-san?"
    -[x]Should she accept, instruct her in the basics of what we need. Essentially keeping her ear out for any plots, especially against the Empire, the Matsu or the Scorpion. Note that something is going on with the Crane, and any light she could shed on the situation would be helpful.
    --[x] "If I am unavailable, or you cannot reach me for some other reason and the matter is time sensitive you can approach Pale Oak-san. He is a colleague of yours now. You may find his advice helpful in performing your new duties."
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    For some reason, Wren blushes furiously when you remove your mask, and seems torn between looking away and focusing on tending to your injury. Why would... oh, right. Shirtless samurai who saved her family from an unfortunate fate. Well, as flattering as it is, you should probably not draw attention to it.

    "I... yes, samurai-sama. I would." She whispers quietly, as though hardly daring to believe her own audacity.

    "Excellent." You say with a smile, replacing your mask. "Here is what you should do..."

    [x] Whether she accepts to job offer or not, ask her gently: "You are quite skilled in treating sword wounds. Might I ask where you practiced the art?"
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    "I..." She hesitates for a moment, schooling her expression to neutrality. "The Matsu family have a great reverence for their swords, Samurai-sama. A number of them believe that their blades should not be sheathed without tasting blood. Heimin blood is apparently sufficient."

    She ducks her head and returns to concentrating on your wounds.

    -/-

    10th Day of the Boar

    Kemari balls are generally little more than gravel wrapped in animal hide or linen, easily prepared and available in considerable numbers during any respectable court. The Matsu seem to have a fondness for the game, as it combines relaxation with the physical training of reflexes and coordination, and Bayushi Kimoko appears to have laid her hands on several of them without serious difficulty.

    Her decision to throw them at you with great force rather than simply indulge in a few games is rather unconventional, to say the least.

    Working your jaw, you do your best to avoid any sign of the pain you feel from showing on your face. Even so, you're fairly sure you can taste blood inside your mouth, and considering your commander's last shot hit you in the chest, that's probably not a good sign. Still, you aren't falling over yet, and while the methods are dubious your lord's insistence that you learn to draw your sword fast enough to counteract the effects of being surprised makes sense. If you can perform a proper Iaijutsu draw at the right moment, you will be able to knock the incoming ball out of the air before it hits you. If not, you are provided with yet more motivation for future attempts.

    At least she's been considerate enough to keep your training inside one of the dojos the Lion have allowed you to use, rather than out in the parade square. You feel thoroughly undignified as it is, and there is no need to add to your humiliation by inviting multiple witnesses.

    Kimoko tosses one of the balls from hand to hand with a cheerful smile, and you work to suppress a sigh as you sink back into your stance.

    -/-

    11th Day of the Boar

    "Again."

    You try not to groan, but it is difficult. Your muscles are burning and your whole body is soaked in sweat, but Bayushi Kimoko does not let up. She stands in front of you, studying your moves with a critical eye as you bring your sword up and begin to move through the katas she demonstrated to you once more.

    "You think this is too difficult?" She asks in a hard tone of voice. "That I am, perhaps, demanding too much of you, too quickly?"

    "No... Bayushi-sama." You reply, breathing heavily as you wrestle with what feels like a lead weight as you move through the motions once again. You must have done this dozens, perhaps even hundreds of times so far, and your lord shows no sign of letting up just yet.

    "Good. You have never stood on the battlefield, Soshi-san, but you are a Bushi. One day, you will have to." She says curtly. "On that day, you must be capable of performing your moves no matter how much your body aches or your mind cries out for rest. They must be automatic, worthy of no more thought than breathing. You must see your enemy without focusing, understand what he will do and how he will react even as you doubt your own ability to take another step. If you can not, then you will die, and in dying you will go before your ancestors in shame. Is that what you want?"

    Up and around... sweep low and double back... a quick jab, not committing...

    "No... Bayushi-sama..." You manage to gasp out.

    "I'm not sure I believe your sincerity." Kimoko says, drawing her sword in a ripple of glinting light. "Now... dodge."

    What is she... ARGH KAMI THAT HURTS...

    -/-

    Results

    Through intensive training, Naoto has learned the second technique of his school. By dedicating two additional days to his training, he has also learned the Kata 'Strength of the Scorpion'. These are detailed below.

    Pincers and Tail - The infamous Scorpion Feint has been the demise of many fine samurai. You may take the Feint maneuver for one raise when making an attack, instead of two.

    Strength of the Scorpion - This kata may be activated as a simple action (or as a free action when beginning an Iaijutsu duel), and remains in effect for the duration of any given skirmish or battle. Once per round, after successfully employing the Feint maneuver, you may raise your final damage inflicted by +3 wounds.

    Feinting (One Raise) - A feint involves first misleading the target into believing that you are going to attack in one particular fashion, then exploiting the holes in their defense opened when they attempt to counter your attack. After a successful feint, halve the difference between your attack roll and the enemy's armour TN, then apply the result as additional wounds when rolling for damage. The maximum additional wounds inflicted is (5xIR).

    -/-

    12th Day of the Boar

    As you are leaving the dojo on the third day of your training, the door slides open before your lord can reach it. Standing on the other side is Matsu Ketsui, clad in instructor's gear rather like that which Kimoko is wearing. And beyond her is... Matsu Heijiko.

    As you bow to the Daimyo and vacate the area, you consider what this might mean. If Ketsui is training Heijiko prior to her duel with Kakita Sekawa... that could be a problem. You understand that the duel has been scheduled for late afternoon on the fourteenth day of the Boar, so you have until then to decide if you are going to do anything with this information.

    What do you do?
    [ ] Stick to the existing vote, as detailed below. Sekawa is a fine duelist, and it takes more than a few days to become good enough to match one of the Kakita on the field.
    [ ] Modify your intended actions in some way (Write in)

    [x] Present our plans to Bayushi-sama. Listen to any orders or advice she might offer. We do not want a repeat of the duel incident.
    [x] Contact Ikoma Genji (by appropriately secretive means - probably including letters). Once he has deigned to arrange for a meeting or other trustworthy channel, reveal what you have found about the source of the Crane's orders. Ask if he might be able to provide you with an example of a message written in the Champion's own handwriting. We also could use a copy of the vax imprint left by the Champions seal.(and whatever else our Investigative skill tell us we may want to ask from him)
    [x] Approach Doji Mariko. Spend some time with her, stabilizing things after the recent events, and trying to get a feel for how the dynamic may have changed. Bring our ink brush kit, as well as several pages of parchment. Use some of it for any poetry that comes to mind.
    -[x] If we have recovered what we need from Genji and the conditions seem right, (appropriate levels of privacy and she is relaxed enough) proceed. If not, see if we cannot help create the right conditions, but do not force the issue. If she seems disinclined to discuss serious matters, let it go for now.
    --[x] Should we succeed, mention casually that you may have a way of testing the validity of the letter that she received from her Champion. Imply that after she expressed her opinion, it seemed to confirm some information we had gathered and led to new clues. Present what we would reasonably need to determine if the letter is genuine, if we were going to do that. Idly note that there are many ways that small items can be temporarily misplaced and things are lost and show up in the strangest of places. Trickster spirits playing games no doubt. Pointedly set aside our ink brush kit and pile of parchments. Conveniently forget them when leaving.
    ---[x]If she argues against such misplacements citing Courtesy, calmly argue back that she should consider the wider consequences of if we prove the letter is a fake. For example, if someone could forge one, why not more? The damage such a hypothetical miscreant could inflict would be considerable. There could be Cranes all over Rokugan following orders designed to make them subtly sabotage the very harmony and peace they are sworn to protect. Such a threat to the Empire would be devastating if left unchecked. It would be our Duty as a member of the Emperors Under-hand to stop such a disruptive plot. We might even ask for her help in stopping such a thing, for is it not a Cranes Duty to help preserve the harmony of the Empire? Spend a Void Point on the Argument.
    [x] Try to spend some time with Kakita Sekawa, reassuring him we bear no grudge for the duel and have a healty respect for his skills with the blade. If this can be done on the training yards, all the better.
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  • Threadmarks
    • Maugan Ra said:
    "I..." She hesitates for a moment, schooling her expression to neutrality. "The Matsu family have a great reverence for their swords, Samurai-sama. A number of them believe that their blades should not be sheathed without tasting blood. Heimin blood is apparently sufficient."

    She ducks her head and returns to concentrating on your wounds.
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    Well I just found a new favorite Family to hate.
     
    [] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation
    -[] Your face becomes serious, with an expression of deep disapproval that is reflected in your voice. "I see."
    --[] Then reestablish your on, and continue the conversation as if the topic had never been broached.
    [] Modify your intended actions in some way
    -[] Quietly mention what you have noticed to whichever Crane you speak to next - likely Doji Mariko. You have confidence in the Kakita, but you understand that this is the sort of thing that can alter the way an enemy approaches a duel, and you see no good reason *not* to give him the advantage of foreknowledge on the matter.

    edit: tweaked based on some of Bastur2's feedback.
     
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    The problem here, after thinking a little, is the bit with training with the Kakita and not the information on itself.

    Should we change that?
     
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    Rook said:
    Well I just found a new favorite Family to hate.
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    On one hand it's better than historical Japan as it implies that it doesn't end in death at least some of the time, while in Japan it usually did...

    On other hand in Japan there was vertical mobility in the way of adoptions and tendency of "I need to test my new sword you will do" and "don't put sword back without tasting blood" to suffer unfortunate case of "offended another samurai and was cut down", not sure if any correlation but suspect at least some was present.
     
    I will take Sirrocco's, but add another change.
    [x] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation
    -[x] Your face becomes serious, with an expression of deep disapproval that is reflected in your voice. "I see."
    --[x] Then reestablish your on, and continue the conversation as if the topic had never been broached.
    [x] Modify your intended actions in some way
    -[x] Quietly mention what you have noticed to whichever Crane you speak to next - likely Doji Mariko. You have confidence in the Kakita, but you understand that this is the sort of thing that can alter the way an enemy approaches a duel, and you see no good reason *not* to give him the advantage of foreknowledge on the matter.
    [X] don't meet with the Kakita, but with a representative of the Mantis, instead.
     
    Bastur2 said:
    The problem here, after thinking a little, is the bit with training with the Kakita and not the information on itself.

    Should we change that?
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    Perhaps you could provide some explanation here, as to why you think it is a problem?

    We're pretty obviously anti-Heijiko, after all. We openly offered to stand against her in a duel to the death due (we claimed) to having been personally offended - and we did so in front of *lots* of witnesses... while on a date with Doji Mariko that had only the faintest bit of plausible deniability. Which side of this particular altercation we're rooting for should be pretty obvious to anyone who's paying attention.
     
    [X] Plan Bastur2
    Allows us to pass on the information, fade into the background slightly (after all i wouldn't be surprised if the Matsu are still slightly in denial about the whole Great Clan thing). Plus suddenly becoming friendly with Sekawa is unlikely to work considering he still view us as Scorpion moustache twirler hiding his colours, which lets be honest we are.
     
    Sirrocco said:
    Perhaps you could provide some explanation here, as to why you think it is a problem?

    We're pretty obviously anti-Heijiko, after all. We openly offered to stand against her in a duel to the death due (we claimed) to having been personally offended - and we did so in front of *lots* of witnesses... while on a date with Doji Mariko that had only the faintest bit of plausible deniability. Which side of this particular altercation we're rooting for should be pretty obvious to anyone who's paying attention.
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    But it is one thing to go against an unknow Matsu and another to go against a student of the Damio.

    I just don't see the reason to be seen with the Kakita and have the risk of angering our host.

    Let him figth, the information is enough.
     
    I wonder would it be possible to pass the information along without even having to meet face-to-face? We're Scorpion sending a message to Crane. This is probably the easiest scenario to send it via metaphor and coded poetry.
     
    Bastur2 said:
    But it is one thing to go against an unknow Matsu and another to go against a student of the Damio.

    I just don't see the reason to be seen with the Kakita and have the risk of angering our host.

    Let him figth, the information is enough.
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    I was going to argue against this, but... you have a point there. It's probably not best to set ourselves so *directly* in opposition to the obvious desires of Matsu Ketsui. Still, I don't think it's time to try to engage with the Mantis just yet. Among other things, we haven't actually been introduced. Also, we should get to letter-writing.

    [x] Write-in: Response to Wren's revelation
    -[x] Your face becomes serious, with an expression of deep disapproval that is reflected in your voice. "I see."
    --[x] Make sure that she knows that the disapproval is not for her.
    --[x] Then reestablish your on, and continue the conversation as if the topic had never been broached.
    [x] Modify your intended actions in some way
    -[x] Make sure to pass along what you have seen about Matsu Heijiko's preparations to the Crane. Do so discreetly.
    -[x] If you have not already met with Kakita Sekawa, then leave that be. Instead, have that promised visit with Ikoma Ganryu.
    --[x] If Strong Birch again won't take your money, that's fine. Don't argue. Instead, leave an appropriate quantity of coin in a discreet but easily-found place at your seat.
    -[x] Write a letter to the Scorpion attending Winter Court at Kyuden Doji, informing them of the local behavior of the Crane, implying that you have reason to believe this may be the result of someone mucking about with the internal Crane lines of communication, and asking if it seems in keeping with the way the Crane Clan Champion is treating the Lion delegation. Suggest that you would prefer that word of this *not* be spread around outside the Clan. Follow Standard Scorpion Techniques for having messages passed discreetly.
     
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    bookwyrm said:
    I wonder would it be possible to pass the information along without even having to meet face-to-face? We're Scorpion sending a message to Crane. This is probably the easiest scenario to send it via metaphor and coded poetry.
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    I'm guessing she would expect this, even if the best would be us meeting her in person. Granted, is quite hard with all that has been happening.

    [x] Sirocco

    I'm up to this plan, and see no issues. With hope, we should find answrr to what's going on with the letter Mariko received before that fateful day.

    Also... Yeah, as much as I'm biased towards the Lion, they tend to... Not be so nice with those under their station. :\
     
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