Remove ads

Hybrid Hive: Eat Shard? (Worm/MGLN) (Complete)

Reader mode
Someone who knows a lot more about math than me once told me that using complex numbers in your equations was a strong indication that you weren't using enough dimensions (in your math model) to describe things. Were they right? I don't know.

But, if so, some use of complex numbers might refer to the dimensions the shards know about, and some the mana ones. That would seem, to me, to produce the possibility of getting really horribly confused...
 
Ace Dreamer said:
Someone who knows a lot more about math than me once told me that using complex numbers in your equations was a strong indication that you weren't using enough dimensions (in your math model) to describe things. Were they right? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't have enough knowledge about high-D math to make a definitive statement, but there's got to be a decent reason that they still teach complex numbers (both i and α), for electronics and signals and stuff. Might be historical inertia (electrons having a negative charge being a prominent example), or it might be simpler to comprehend and utilize.
 
Remove ads
Physical Dimensions
  • Informational
    • To simplify some explanations of how Mana and Shards work together on a math front, I'm going to represent the way they see dimensions in a couple of specific ways. This post aims to explain at least some of that.

    Warning Basics Detail Chart
    • This tabset could contain information that counts as spoilers. Read at your own risk!
    • Mana-based and Shard-based techniques are very similar in many ways, but utterly different in others. They both see the same number of dimensions and can function on all the dimensions they can see. They don't, however, see the same dimensions. Due to some oddities in the way things work past the fourth physical dimension there are some variations.

      Hive has taken both sets of data and compiled a more complete list, finding physical dimensions that neither system could see alone by virtue of going "huh, there's a gap here where I'd expect something..." on the combined list.

      On that basis, we can represent Pure Mana or Pure Shard techniques as, in a way, "32 Bit" techniques. They can each see 32 physical dimensions, plus the NULL. Shard techniques further support being applied on negative dimensions, where the positive is known.

      Hive's combined system could be seen as "64 Bit" techniques, with 64 physical dimensions plus the NULL. This includes everything that the individual systems could see, plus the "gap fillers".

      Due to the way Mana works, it cannot be used with the "negative" physical dimensions. This means that any technique that takes advantage of them is impossible to reproduce with Mana.
    • Dimension Variable Mana Accessible Shard Accessible
      0 NULL Yes Yes
      1 Z Yes Yes
      2 Y Yes Yes
      3 X Yes Yes
      4 W Yes Yes
      5 V No Yes
      6 U Yes No
      7 T No No
      8 S No No
      9 R Yes Yes
      10 Q No Yes
      11 P Yes No
      12 O Yes No
      13 N No Yes
      14 M No No
      15 L Yes No
      16 K Yes No
      17 J No Yes
      18 I Yes No
      19 H No Yes
      20 G No No
      21 F Yes Yes
      22 E No Yes
      23 D No No
      24 C Yes No
      25 B No Yes
      26 A No No
      27 Z' Yes No
      28 Y' No Yes
      29 X' No Yes
      30 W' Yes No
      31 V' Yes No
      32 U' Yes No
      33 T' Yes Yes
      34 S' No Yes
      35 R' Yes No
      36 Q' Yes Yes
      37 P' No Yes
      38 O' No No
      39 N' Yes No
      40 M' No Yes
      41 L' Yes Yes
      42 K' Yes No
      43 J' No No
      44 I' No Yes
      45 H' Yes Yes
      46 G' No No
      47 F' No Yes
      48 E' Yes No
      49 D' No Yes
      50 C' No No
      51 B' Yes No
      52 A' No Yes
      53 Z'' No Yes
      54 Y'' Yes No
      55 X'' No No
      56 W'' No Yes
      57 V'' Yes Yes
      58 U'' No No
      59 T'' No No
      60 S'' Yes Yes
      61 R'' Yes Yes
      62 Q'' No No
      63 P'' Yes No
      64 O'' Yes Yes
     
  • Informational
    • CmptrWz said:
    To simplify some explanations of how Mana and Shards work together on a math front, I'm going to represent the way they see dimensions in a couple of specific ways. This post aims to explain at least some of that.

    Warning Basics Detail Chart
    • This tabset could contain information that counts as spoilers. Read at your own risk!
    • Mana-based and Shard-based techniques are very similar in many ways, but utterly different in others. They both see the same number of dimensions and can function on all the dimensions they can see. They don't, however, see the same dimensions. Due to some oddities in the way things work past the fourth physical dimension there are some variations.

      Hive has taken both sets of data and compiled a more complete list, finding physical dimensions that neither system could see alone by virtue of going "huh, there's a gap here where I'd expect something..." on the combined list.

      On that basis, we can represent Pure Mana or Pure Shard techniques as, in a way, "32 Bit" techniques. They can each see 32 physical dimensions, plus the NULL. Shard techniques further support being applied on negative dimensions, where the positive is known.

      Hive's combined system could be seen as "64 Bit" techniques, with 64 physical dimensions plus the NULL. This includes everything that the individual systems could see, plus the "gap fillers".

      Due to the way Mana works, it cannot be used with the "negative" physical dimensions. This means that any technique that takes advantage of them is impossible to reproduce with Mana.
    • Dimension Variable Mana Accessible Shard Accessible
      0 NULL Yes Yes
      1 Z Yes Yes
      2 Y Yes Yes
      3 X Yes Yes
      4 W Yes Yes
      5 V No Yes
      6 U Yes No
      7 T No No
      8 S No No
      9 R Yes Yes
      10 Q No Yes
      11 P Yes No
      12 O Yes No
      13 N No Yes
      14 M No No
      15 L Yes No
      16 K Yes No
      17 J No Yes
      18 I Yes No
      19 H No Yes
      20 G No No
      21 F Yes Yes
      22 E No Yes
      23 D No No
      24 C Yes No
      25 B No Yes
      26 A No No
      27 Z' Yes No
      28 Y' No Yes
      29 X' No Yes
      30 W' Yes No
      31 V' Yes No
      32 U' Yes No
      33 T' Yes Yes
      34 S' No Yes
      35 R' Yes No
      36 Q' Yes Yes
      37 P' No Yes
      38 O' No No
      39 N' Yes No
      40 M' No Yes
      41 L' Yes Yes
      42 K' Yes No
      43 J' No No
      44 I' No Yes
      45 H' Yes Yes
      46 G' No No
      47 F' No Yes
      48 E' Yes No
      49 D' No Yes
      50 C' No No
      51 B' Yes No
      52 A' No Yes
      53 Z'' No Yes
      54 Y'' Yes No
      55 X'' No No
      56 W'' No Yes
      57 V'' Yes Yes
      58 U'' No No
      59 T'' No No
      60 S'' Yes Yes
      61 R'' Yes Yes
      62 Q'' No No
      63 P'' Yes No
      64 O'' Yes Yes
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    So the question becomes...is there a Physical Dimension 65?
     
    CmptrWz said:
    This means that any technique that takes advantage of them is impossible to reproduce with Mana.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I haven't noticed it detailed in story, but I'm assuming Hive/Minerva would know all the same: How much shard functionality does Hive actually retain? Is it just tearing them apart for raw materials, techniques and single effect power modules, or is it able to do purely shard things outside of the powers looted? Are there vestigal/complete protocols left over, data, etc?
     
    So, to clarify, is Hive able to access the "gap" dimensions? If so, how? Just knowing that they exist shouldn't be enough to grant access, since neither shard nor mana techniques can see them, right? Or is the combination of techniques powerful enough to synergize and grant access to the gaps as well?

    Are there any techniques we've see so far that require negative dimensions, besides Shadow Stalker's?
     
    CmptrWz said:
    To simplify some explanations of how Mana and Shards work together on a math front, I'm going to represent the way they see dimensions in a couple of specific ways. This post aims to explain at least some of that.

    Warning Basics Detail Chart
    • This tabset could contain information that counts as spoilers. Read at your own risk!
    • Mana-based and Shard-based techniques are very similar in many ways, but utterly different in others. They both see the same number of dimensions and can function on all the dimensions they can see. They don't, however, see the same dimensions. Due to some oddities in the way things work past the fourth physical dimension there are some variations.

      Hive has taken both sets of data and compiled a more complete list, finding physical dimensions that neither system could see alone by virtue of going "huh, there's a gap here where I'd expect something..." on the combined list.

      On that basis, we can represent Pure Mana or Pure Shard techniques as, in a way, "32 Bit" techniques. They can each see 32 physical dimensions, plus the NULL. Shard techniques further support being applied on negative dimensions, where the positive is known.

      Hive's combined system could be seen as "64 Bit" techniques, with 64 physical dimensions plus the NULL. This includes everything that the individual systems could see, plus the "gap fillers".

      Due to the way Mana works, it cannot be used with the "negative" physical dimensions. This means that any technique that takes advantage of them is impossible to reproduce with Mana.
    • Dimension Variable Mana Accessible Shard Accessible
      0 NULL Yes Yes
      1 Z Yes Yes
      2 Y Yes Yes
      3 X Yes Yes
      4 W Yes Yes
      5 V No Yes
      6 U Yes No
      7 T No No
      8 S No No
      9 R Yes Yes
      10 Q No Yes
      11 P Yes No
      12 O Yes No
      13 N No Yes
      14 M No No
      15 L Yes No
      16 K Yes No
      17 J No Yes
      18 I Yes No
      19 H No Yes
      20 G No No
      21 F Yes Yes
      22 E No Yes
      23 D No No
      24 C Yes No
      25 B No Yes
      26 A No No
      27 Z' Yes No
      28 Y' No Yes
      29 X' No Yes
      30 W' Yes No
      31 V' Yes No
      32 U' Yes No
      33 T' Yes Yes
      34 S' No Yes
      35 R' Yes No
      36 Q' Yes Yes
      37 P' No Yes
      38 O' No No
      39 N' Yes No
      40 M' No Yes
      41 L' Yes Yes
      42 K' Yes No
      43 J' No No
      44 I' No Yes
      45 H' Yes Yes
      46 G' No No
      47 F' No Yes
      48 E' Yes No
      49 D' No Yes
      50 C' No No
      51 B' Yes No
      52 A' No Yes
      53 Z'' No Yes
      54 Y'' Yes No
      55 X'' No No
      56 W'' No Yes
      57 V'' Yes Yes
      58 U'' No No
      59 T'' No No
      60 S'' Yes Yes
      61 R'' Yes Yes
      62 Q'' No No
      63 P'' Yes No
      64 O'' Yes Yes
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Jordisk said:
    So the question becomes...is there a Physical Dimension 65?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Don't know, but the question that keeps popping up in my mind is whether or not there are Red Lectroids in that there 8th Dimension. I guess we can only wait and see if a bunch of guys with the first name 'John' pop up out of nowhere.

    :p
     
    Jordisk said:
    So the question becomes...is there a Physical Dimension 65?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    As far as Hive is concerned? Not one that can be utilized at this time.
    HebrideanStarfis said:
    I haven't noticed it detailed in story, but I'm assuming Hive/Minerva would know all the same: How much shard functionality does Hive actually retain? Is it just tearing them apart for raw materials, techniques and single effect power modules, or is it able to do purely shard things outside of the powers looted? Are there vestigal/complete protocols left over, data, etc?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    In this story, all Shards basically run on identical hardware, with software being the defining difference.

    All Hive needs to unlock more Shard functionality is more working software.

    The only thing Hive is unlikely to obtain are trump powers in the "affect other powers" category, as those are generally going to need the slave circuits that keep getting destroyed right away.
    ccstat said:
    So, to clarify, is Hive able to access the "gap" dimensions? If so, how? Just knowing that they exist shouldn't be enough to grant access, since neither shard nor mana techniques can see them, right? Or is the combination of techniques powerful enough to synergize and grant access to the gaps as well?

    Are there any techniques we've see so far that require negative dimensions, besides Shadow Stalker's?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Hive saw that the dimension lists were different, figured out how to do all Mana dimensions with Shard hardware and all Shard dimensions with Mana. Then looked at the resulting list, figured out the ones that were the same, then went "wait a minute, there appear to be gaps..." and figured out the gaps too. Then ensured that those worked in both ends, saw more gaps, repeat until there aren't any gaps. End result? The Hex spell system has access to all 64, as does Shard hardware that Hive has repurposed into Hybrid Devices.

    As for negative dimensions? A number of Shard techniques that include being intangible in some form utilize them.
     
    7, 8, 14, 20, 23, 26, 38, 43, 46, 50, 55, 58, 59, 62. These are the dimensions that neither Mana nor Shard techniques can locate by themselves. What is so special about these dimensions? Is there a pattern to what dimensions can't be seen? If there exists a method to extend the range of each of the manipulations beyond the 64 dimensions found so far, does any such pattern continue?

    ...if the pattern does exist and extends, can it be extended backwards to find mana-usable negative dimensions?
     
    Jordisk said:
    7, 8, 14, 20, 23, 26, 38, 43, 46, 50, 55, 58, 59, 62. These are the dimensions that neither Mana nor Shard techniques can locate by themselves. What is so special about these dimensions? Is there a pattern to what dimensions can't be seen? If there exists a method to extend the range of each of the manipulations beyond the 64 dimensions found so far, does any such pattern continue?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Let's search OEIS:

    There are no sequences listed that exactly match the given dimensions. If you search allowing sequences that contain more terms in the middle, and can rearrange the order, there are 3180 mathematically interesting sequences of integers that contain the listed numbers.

    skipping over unhelpful sequences:
    None are divisible by 3.
    None are squares.

    Other than that most of the lists that come up are primarily permuations of the natural numbers. Nothing really shows up.
     
    Vyrexuviel said:
    I think we all need to agree that whatever happens in Dimension S' needs to -STAY THERE-.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    The Shards know what happens in in dimension S'. That is why the Entities are going to blow up Earth.

    My bet? You degenerates are holding hands with Komi-san there.

    Ravenwood240 said:
    Cthulhu just wants cuddles; his anger comes because no one will cuddle him.

    Whatever happens in Dimension S' needs to -STAY THERE.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I believe you missed the joke. Dimension S' is Dimension 34. What is Internet Rule 34?


    saganatsu said:
    Let's search OEIS:

    There are no sequences listed that exactly match the given dimensions. If you search allowing sequences that contain more terms in the middle, and can rearrange the order, there are 3180 mathematically interesting sequences of integers that contain the listed numbers.

    skipping over unhelpful sequences:
    None are divisible by 3.
    None are squares.

    Other than that most of the lists that come up are primarily permuations of the natural numbers. Nothing really shows up.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Maybe look for sequences based on what dimensions Mana and Shard abilities ARE able to access? Or even that both are able to access? Given what I know of the Computer Wizard, there should be SOMETHING going on. Unless us not finding anything is the troll?

    Edit: OEIS isn't giving anything for the Mana dimensions. I am not bored enough to check the Shard dimensions or the mutual dimensions.
     
    Last edited:
    Ace Dreamer said:
    Someone who knows a lot more about math than me once told me that using complex numbers in your equations was a strong indication that you weren't using enough dimensions (in your math model) to describe things. Were they right? I don't know.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Complex numbers are a way of adding dimensions to your math/physics, so sounds right, although an odd way of putting it.
     
    The part I find odd is that if all the powers are just software, why can't she just flat reuse the more useful abilities? It seems like she has to reinvent everything and lost most of it. For instance, she got Vista's power and now has more inventory (not exactly an actual example, but how it feels like it went). Is it that the original powers are too dangerous, don't work with Hex hardware (needs Shard hardware), or that it would be suspicious? I understand that Bakuda's stuff was mostly insane, but surely limitations could be applied like how the shard originally did it? Instead it all had to be reverse engineered, and there's a lot less now.

    Sting seems to be the exception to that, and they don't even have that shard!
     
    LostArchivist said:
    The part I find odd is that if all the powers are just software, why can't she just flat reuse the more useful abilities? It seems like she has to reinvent everything and lost most of it. For instance, she got Vista's power and now has more inventory (not exactly an actual example, but how it feels like it went). Is it that the original powers are too dangerous, don't work with Hex hardware (needs Shard hardware), or that it would be suspicious? I understand that Bakuda's stuff was mostly insane, but surely limitations could be applied like how the shard originally did it? Instead it all had to be reverse engineered, and there's a lot less now.

    Sting seems to be the exception to that, and they don't even have that shard!
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    They are implementing things as they learn about them. They got information on Sting when Sting was used against the necklace, same as a lot of their detection methods. With Vista's shard, they learned how to expand and contract space. They can't do it the way Vista did it, because they don't have a vast reserve (like an entire other Earth, perhaps?) to add air when expanding space, or store air when contracting it. However, they are using the information to improve their portals, and they can both sense and communicate longer distances with the Vista data.

    In fact, the only one shard that didn't give something broadly useful was Bakuda's shard, and even then it gave hints on the mass-to-mana conversion needed for the solar system scanning spell. Sophia gave them an entire new set of dimensions to play with, even if they don't play well with mana. Vista gave the aforementioned communication and portals upgrade, and QA gave the Multitasking and Bug Control systems, the former of which is half the reason they were able to progress as fast in rebuilding their magic system.
     
    Last edited:
    Jordisk said:
    In fact, the only one shard that didn't give something broadly useful was Bakuda's shard, and even then it gave hints on the mass-to-mana conversion needed for the solar system scanning spell.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Bakuda's shard gave a lot of useful things! ...For killing Scion's real body after disconnecting his avatar so it can't flow back through the link.
     
    Byzantine said:
    Bakuda's shard gave a lot of useful things! ...For killing Scion's real body after disconnecting his avatar so it can't flow back through the link.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    An uncomfortably large number of Bakuda's techniques lead to dimensional instability. No one likes dimensional instability. Dimensional instability is generally bad for the people in that reality and local area. Anything from Dimensional Quakes to literally wiping entire planets and star systems from existence.

    Though you are right. Bakuda's shard was very useful...for teaching Hive to stay the fuck away from Time Travel.
     
    Jordisk said:
    An uncomfortably large number of Bakuda's techniques lead to dimensional instability. No one likes dimensional instability. Dimensional instability is generally bad for the people in that reality and local area. Anything from Dimensional Quakes to literally wiping entire planets and star systems from existence.

    Though you are right. Bakuda's shard was very useful...for teaching Hive to stay the fuck away from Time Travel.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Those are exactly the kind of weapon you need to really KO an entity and make it stick, though. Damn things are worse than cockroaches.
     
    Byzantine said:
    Those are exactly the kind of weapon you need to really KO an entity and make it stick, though. Damn things are worse than cockroaches.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    To deal with an Entity you want something like the Stilling, the "Golden Fuck-You Beam" that Zion uses. Make it a bomb and you are golden. If you use some of Bakuda's techniques, you can accidentally the local reality cluster. You don't use a False Vacuum Collapse to kill an ant, you don't destabilize the dimension to wipe out a planet.
     
    Byzantine said:
    Those are exactly the kind of weapon you need to really KO an entity and make it stick, though. Damn things are worse than cockroaches.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    What benefit is there in killing a single Entity if the resulting Dimensional Quake wipes out Every Reality Within the Isolation Barrier, including the one Taylor and Hive is on?

    Aaaaaand Imp'ed
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top