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Hybrid Hive: Eat Shard? (Worm/MGLN) (Complete)

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Ace Dreamer said:
Armsmaster doesn't have access to other dimensions, which are almost certainly outside the reach of Coil, and his assassins.
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That's only relevent if Lisa:
1)Knows about that.
2)Believes Coil's reach is global.
Given how ridiculous that is it's not relevent to the discussion.

Also, don't forget Lisa's abilities to deduce things, and if she hasn't figured-out that, at least, messages given to Taylor will get to Minerva, then I'll be very surprised.
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And if she hasn't figured out several ways to get a message directly to Armsmaster I'd be even more surprised.

MTB said:
Also, tell Armsmaster means 'PRT plant mightwill get to know', tell Minerva doesn't.
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That's wrong.
Telling Armsmaster means that unless she can convince him to keep it secret from the PRT the PRT will know.
Telling Minerva means that unless she can convince her to keep it secret from the PRT the PRT will know.

Given armsmaster's canon actions he'd definitely be down with a legitimate reason to keep the operation secret so he can present everyone with his amazing accomplishment. Given the issues shards have with predicting magic Lisa is aware her predictions regarding Taylor/Minerva are problematic at best so I'm not sure she'd be as confidant about being able to convince Minerva to keep it secret from the PRT as she should be about her ability to convince Armsmaster of the same.

Of course this is assuming that Coil controls the PRT, as opposed to having a small number of agents in it, so as long as her initial contact is someone he doesn't control, and with sufficent standing to demand multiple guards she wouldn't need to worry about Coil.

nemo1685 said:
Is that an extremely shiny Monster of Mass Destruction? I'm curious and would read a story about them.
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LOL!
Yes, that's what it is. Unfortunately no story yet.

FaerieKnight79 said:
By all accounts from canon and this story, Sophia's shard didn't affect her judgment. It affected her temperment to make her more aggressive.
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That's functionally the same as something which lowers inhibitions, and it's pretty much universally agreed that if you are affected by such a drug (especially when you don't know you were under the effect) you are not fully responsible for your decisions.
Prince Charon said:
If a lawyer were somehow able to convince a jury that the accused was genuinely unaware that they were impaired before it was too late, they may well be found not guilty, or get a much-reduced sentence.
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Not even reduced, acquitted. I believe there have been cases where the defense was basically "I wasn't aware I was drugged". I don't know of any where that defense was successful, but if a lawyer thought that was a workable defense I'll assume it was.
To take an extreme case, if someone was dosed with a daterape drug, and due to that drug caused a fatal crash, I'm pretty sure the police would be after the guy who drugged whoever caused the crash, not the driver.

FaerieKnight79 said:
Except legally, they kind of do? I have legitimate medical reasons for why I have a short temper. Actually, in the past it's been a berserker rage but I've mellowed a lot since then. If I do completely lose it, I frequently don't remember what I did afterwords. But legally, it's entirely my ass on the line if I let myself get to that point. If I hurt someone while in a blind rage, it's me that is probably going to get into trouble.
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Yes, because:
1)You're aware of the problem so it's your responsibility to account for it.
2)While you may have a medical reason why you're more prone to this than other people, that is not the same (legally) as someone giving you something which caused this effect against your will/without permission.
 
TheUnicorn said:
Of course this is assuming that Coil controls the PRT, as opposed to having a small number of agents in it, so as long as her initial contact is someone he doesn't control, and with sufficent standing to demand multiple guards she wouldn't need to worry about Coil.
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And who exactly would that 'initial contact' be?

Piggot, who hates Parahumans? Renick who seems to be a happy gofer?

Now, I get it, Coil's reach isn't global and it's definitely not absolute where he can get to her.

However he is a slippery bastard and Minerva's protection would be a near guarantee of Lisa's freedom even when you ignore the fact that Minerva has a whole planet to stash her on.
 
TheUnicorn said:
The one w've been talking about is Armsmaster, but she could easily contact Rennic, or Director Armstrong in Boston, or many other PRT officials. It's not like she's limited to the publicly available contact information.
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And it's not like Coil wouldn't have taps.
on her communications. He's like an abusive boyfriend only creepier.

There's also the fact that Lisa's conflict drive would keep her from leaving until Coil was taken down.

And how could she be sure any guards weren't in Coil's pocket? Not quickly enough to save her.

Much as I don't like her, Tattletale's only option is to seek shelter with a Cape nobody would be willing to mess with, the kind of person that Coil's men would say "You don't pay me enough for this." At the order to fight them.

Oh my there appears to be such a Cape in town...
 
TheUnicorn said:
That's functionally the same as something which lowers inhibitions, and it's pretty much universally agreed that if you are affected by such a drug (especially when you don't know you were under the effect) you are not fully responsible for your decisions.
Not even reduced, acquitted. I believe there have been cases where the defense was basically "I wasn't aware I was drugged". I don't know of any where that defense was successful, but if a lawyer thought that was a workable defense I'll assume it was.
To take an extreme case, if someone was dosed with a daterape drug, and due to that drug caused a fatal crash, I'm pretty sure the police would be after the guy who drugged whoever caused the crash, not the driver.

Yes, because:
1)You're aware of the problem so it's your responsibility to account for it.
2)While you may have a medical reason why you're more prone to this than other people, that is not the same (legally) as someone giving you something which caused this effect against your will/without permission.
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If the defense wasn't successful, then by precedence it is not a legal justification.

Let's say someone kidnapped me and attached a venomous viper that will bite anyone I shake hands with. The first couple of times, since I hadn't learned the trigger for the bite I could probably be acquitted, but if I kept shaking people's hands, even if I don't realize what's causing it to attack I have had plenty of time to figure it out. People have been outright telling Sophia "don't do this" for a while now, at least since she got in the Wards. The Locker wasn't a reflex in a moment of weakness, it was a coldly calculated and deliberate move. Also, it's not like pre-trigger Sophia is ever going to come back. It's Shadow Stalker they have to judge, and she is a woman who makes evil choices and should be punished.
 
Leechblade said:
However he is a slippery bastard and Minerva's protection would be a near guarantee of Lisa's freedom even when you ignore the fact that Minerva has a whole planet to stash her on.
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Except, according to Hive, there's a high probability that sending a parahuman like Lisa to said other planet could be instantly lethal. This is why Assault and Battery don't join Missy on her morning runs, nor directly observe her training; trying to do so may kill them.

There's no point in stashing Lisa on another world to protect her from Coil if doing so kills her.
 
Jacen1 said:
Except, according to Hive, there's a high probability that sending a parahuman like Lisa to said other planet could be instantly lethal. This is why Assault and Battery don't join Missy on her morning runs, nor directly observe her training; trying to do so may kill them.

There's no point in stashing Lisa on another world to protect her from Coil if doing so kills her.
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It's not going to another Earth that's lethal.

It's the disconnection from your power that's lethal.

And that's only if you go to an Earth outside the operation Zone of Powers.
 
I don't know about him or ease. But in the early 90s I think it was the Hague worlds sci-fi convention I put up a couple of Russian translators in the tent I was staying in. They I've bought some nice evil emergency rations from lifeboats I think it was and are they share those with me it was an interesting experience I swear you could shave with the biscuits.
Apologise for the garbled text that should have read naval rations I still haven't figured out how to edit posts with the dictation software.
 
Megagulp said:
It's not going to another Earth that's lethal.

It's the disconnection from your power that's lethal.

And that's only if you go to an Earth outside the operation Zone of Powers.
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You will note that all of the worlds Taylor has easy access to are within the mana-suppressing barrier, and thus within the Zone of Powers.

The issue is that it is believed there is a notable probability that Taylor's method of Dimensional Transference may force a disconnect.

This is not to say this is true. However, because Taylor and Hive believe it may be the case, they will not consider offering sanctuary to a parahuman off world to be a viable option.
 
Leechblade said:
And it's not like Coil wouldn't have taps.
on her communications. He's like an abusive boyfriend only creepier.
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Those would be just as effective (if not more so) at stopping her from communicating with Minerva.
There's also the fact that Lisa's conflict drive would keep her from leaving until Coil was taken down.
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That is the point I was making. Lisa isn't interested in just getting out from under Coil's control and living a peacful life despite her claims to the contrary.
And how could she be sure any guards weren't in Coil's pocket?
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She doesn't have to. He doesn't have enough people in control that a random selection of multiple guards would all, or even most be in his payroll.

Dinode said:
If the defense wasn't successful, then by precedence it is not a legal justification.
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Only if the court believed the defence and still convicted. What I'm talking about is them making the argument they didn't know and being convicted because they did (or should have) known/realized, not because the court didn't accept the logic.

Let's say someone kidnapped me and attached a venomous viper that will bite anyone I shake hands with. The first couple of times, since I hadn't learned the trigger for the bite I could probably be acquitted, but if I kept shaking people's hands, even if I don't realize what's causing it to attack I have had plenty of time to figure it out.
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No argument. However we're not talking about something as easy to observe as a snake, and again, diminished capacity is diminished capacity so even if the shards aren't actively preventing their victims from realizing they'd been affected mentally (which seems unlikely, especially given the issues Tt. had in canon) it's quite likely Sophia won't realise she's affected and simply think that's how things are.
 
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TheUnicorn said:
Those would be just as effective (if not more so) at stopping her from communicating with Minerva.
That is the point I was making. Lisa isn't interested in just getting out from under Coil's control and living a peacful life despite her claims to the contrary.
She doesn't have to. He doesn't have enough people in control that a random selection of multiple guards would all, or even most be in his payroll.

Only if the court believed the defence and still convicted. What I'm talking about is them making the argument they didn't know and being convicted because they did (or should have) known/realized, not because the court didn't accept the logic.

No argument. However we're not talking about something as easy to observe as a snake, and again, diminished capacity is diminished capacity so even if the shards aren't actively preventing their victims from realizing they'd been affected mentally (which seems unlikely, especially given the issues Tt. had in canon) it's quite likely Sophia won't realise she's affected and simply think that's how things are.
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Look, it's becoming obvious that continuing this argument here is not going to solve anything without a major derail. If you'd like, I can make a proper topic or a PM for this purpose.
 
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All we can do is wait and see. Perhaps Lisa will have the luck to intercept Minerva on her patrol. I dare say she'd trade her powers for Coil's destruction....
 
Jacen1 said:
You will note that all of the worlds Taylor has easy access to are within the mana-suppressing barrier, and thus within the Zone of Powers.

The issue is that it is believed there is a notable probability that Taylor's method of Dimensional Transference may force a disconnect.

This is not to say this is true. However, because Taylor and Hive believe it may be the case, they will not consider offering sanctuary to a parahuman off world to be a viable option.
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Note that OP said that the world she's training on is in the barrier, but outside the Shard Operational Zone.

The Dimensional transference could snap the connection(As stated by Lilia).

It is implied, though not confirmed that they have access to worlds within the Operational Zone. That said, this argument is moot, since Lisa has way of knowing that powers have a limited dimensional range.
 
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Simple Map of Dimensional Sea around Bet
  • Informational
    • Okay. There has been some confusion about a few things. If I could label this informational and media I would, but I can't, and I'm calling it more informational than media.

    Here we have a simplified map of the Dimensional Sea around Earth Bet, as seen by Shard Techniques. In the middle is a blue dot representing Earth Bet. That is surrounded by the Shard Operational Zone, with a yellow-dotted administrative shroud barrier around it. Inside of that we have two Entity-locked zones, one with a deteriorated shroud barrier and one with a solid one. Surrounding the Shard Operational Zone is the Shard Deployment Zone, which has a solid red barrier shroud around it. The blue dot in the lower right is the Beach World, the red X in the upper left is Hive's entry point.


    Dimensional Transference to/from anywhere is likely to disconnect a parahuman. Portals are unlikely to disconnect a parahuman, but if they leave the Shard Operational Zone then there's a chance that the Shard will disconnect from the parahuman anyway. Please note that the Beach World is definitely outside of the Shard Operational Zone.

    Again, that is how Shards see the local Dimensional Sea. Taylor and Hive have a different map. This is also greatly simplified, and unlike the Shard one should probably not be perfectly elliptical. But I got lazy. It's for demonstration purposes only anyway.


    Here you can see that things are no longer centered on Earth Bet. The other elements are all still there, Shroud layers haven't changed, but everything is technically at least somewhat of a "shorter distance". It just isn't a uniform effect, with Hive's entry point being on the far end of things.
     
  • Informational
    • Okay...

    But that doesn't discount the idea of Minerva renting an apartment thousands of miles away from BB and stashing Lisa there until she has Coil behind bars.

    What's with the other Blue Dot though?
     
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    Leechblade said:
    Okay...

    But that doesn't discount the idea of Minerva renting an apartment thousands of miles away from BB and stashing Lisa there until she has Coil behind bars.

    What's with the other Blue Dot though?
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    Minerva teleports via dimensional transference. Which is likely to disconnect a parahuman. Which would be bad.

    And the second blue dot is the beach. He says it right there in the description of what the various tbings in the picture are.
     
    Leechblade said:
    Okay...

    But that doesn't discount the idea of Minerva renting an apartment thousands of miles away from BB and stashing Lisa there until she has Coil behind bars.

    What's with the other Blue Dot though?
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    CmptrWz said:
    The blue dot in the lower right is the Beach World
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    Also if you were a dimension hopping teleporter looking to stash Lisa outside of Coil's reach why would you be keeping her on Earth Bet?
     
    I asked a stupid question I get it.

    I also didn't realize that the method rather than the destination would be causing the disconnect.
     
    CmptrWz said:
    Okay. There has been some confusion about a few things. If I could label this informational and media I would, but I can't, and I'm calling it more informational than media.

    Here we have a simplified map of the Dimensional Sea around Earth Bet, as seen by Shard Techniques. In the middle is a blue dot representing Earth Bet. That is surrounded by the Shard Operational Zone, with a yellow-dotted administrative shroud barrier around it. Inside of that we have two Entity-locked zones, one with a deteriorated shroud barrier and one with a solid one. Surrounding the Shard Operational Zone is the Shard Deployment Zone, which has a solid red barrier shroud around it. The blue dot in the lower right is the Beach World, the red X in the upper left is Hive's entry point.


    Dimensional Transference to/from anywhere is likely to disconnect a parahuman. Portals are unlikely to disconnect a parahuman, but if they leave the Shard Operational Zone then there's a chance that the Shard will disconnect from the parahuman anyway. Please note that the Beach World is definitely outside of the Shard Operational Zone.

    Again, that is how Shards see the local Dimensional Sea. Taylor and Hive have a different map. This is also greatly simplified, and unlike the Shard one should probably not be perfectly elliptical. But I got lazy. It's for demonstration purposes only anyway.


    Here you can see that things are no longer centered on Earth Bet. The other elements are all still there, Shroud layers haven't changed, but everything is technically at least somewhat of a "shorter distance". It just isn't a uniform effect, with Hive's entry point being on the far end of things.
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    Where us the desert world where they sometimes run?
     
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