Remove ads

Hybrid Hive: Eat Shard? (Worm/MGLN) (Complete)

Reader mode
Jordisk said:
Honestly, Algebra is not that difficult to reverse-engineer after you see it done, though figuring it out without a reference was a rather impressive achievement. Algebra is literally the mathematics of unknown values and the manipulation of equations, usually to find those values. If you see enough basic algebra, you can figure out what it is doing and how to do it yourself. Even if all you have seen is 2x=1 solved to x=1/2, and similar simple equations, you can eventually work out the fully-variable equations used to represent general problems and large sets.

Rather, Numberman's Shard is using a base-twelve system to do basic operations, be they First Order (addition/subtraction), Second Order (multiplication/division), Third Order (exponents/logarithms), or even higher order operations, and has a little bit of simple Algebra, basically just substituting large numbers or sets as variables. Team Mana is using base ten to do Calculus with imaginary numbers, written with a completely different numeral set and operator notation. Yeah, it is POSSIBLE for someone with enough processing power to figure out how to get from one to the other, but it isn't bloody likely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A shorter analogy, perhaps, would be attempting to work out set theory in hexadecimal notation.

They're both math. But you're gonna have a bad time.
 
Logos01 said:
A shorter analogy, perhaps, would be attempting to work out set theory in hexadecimal notation.

They're both math. But you're gonna have a bad time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You would have no worse of a time than if you were working out set theory from scratch in decimal notation like we humans did. Hexadecimal is just another counting base, base 16, instead of our normal base 10. My example was having ancient Greek level mathematics in one counting base, and somehow using that to understand calculus using complex numbers in a completely different base, using different symbols for the numbers and the operations. Much harder.

Translations between bases is already rather time-consuming for complex mathematics. Include learning to understand the different writing system for their mathematics, and finally advancing mathematics as far as we took it in over two thousand years? It isn't happening any time soon.

Once the Shards have a basic understanding of magic, they can move into ways to detect it, and then into ways to use it. Granted, this would probably take multiple cycles, and thus isn't going to happen in this case, but still.
 
I give up on figuring out what to respond to at this point. Instead, I shall provide an explanation for Number Man.

He, thanks to the influence of his shard, can use his atrophied linker core to perceive the math of spells. This is exposed to him with symbols that he recognizes, though the variables aren't labeled well and it varies on what base it decides to show him. He can adapt to the base changes easily enough, but he keeps coming up short on the "this works" side of things.

Part of the "that doesn't work" on his end is that he's seeing things that don't make sense.

For example, he sees the following happen in the spell: 0 + 1x + 1y - 1x

That's wonderful. Obviously the final answer is 1y, right? Except that no, the answer is 2y. He can see that the answer is 2y, and that the process of going from 0 to 2y is correct and functions.

But he can't tell why it comes out to 2y. He's missing the rules that tell him what happened and why it works.

Worse, he sees that happening, and somewhere else in the equation 2z becomes 1.5θ as a side effect of the transition, which is the entire reason that this section doesn't just go 0 + 2y, but without any obvious relationship between the two pieces.

Mostly because he doesn't know how mana is shaped and functions, and all of the equations he's trying to figure out are working on mana directly and thus follow its rules.
 
Jordisk said:
You would have no worse of a time than if you were working out set theory from scratch in decimal notation like we humans did. Hexadecimal is just another counting base, base 16, instead of our normal base 10. My example was having ancient Greek level mathematics in one counting base, and somehow using that to understand calculus using complex numbers in a completely different base, using different symbols for the numbers and the operations. Much harder.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You kinda missed the lurch here.

We didn't work out set theory in base ten. Set theory can't be worked out with any enumeration base, because set theory isn't numerable. There are very large segments of mathematics which don't actually involve numbers. Set theory is on the edge of that area of mathematics.

While sets contain numbers, sets cannot be added, subtracted, multiplied, or divided, let alone derived. Higher order mathematics is absolutely nothing like what you learn in K-12 math classes.
 
Last edited:
CmptrWz said:
I give up on figuring out what to respond to at this point. Instead, I shall provide an explanation for Number Man.

He, thanks to the influence of his shard, can use his atrophied linker core to perceive the math of spells. This is exposed to him with symbols that he recognizes, though the variables aren't labeled well and it varies on what base it decides to show him. He can adapt to the base changes easily enough, but he keeps coming up short on the "this works" side of things.

Part of the "that doesn't work" on his end is that he's seeing things that don't make sense.

For example, he sees the following happen in the spell: 0 + 1x + 1y - 1x

That's wonderful. Obviously the final answer is 1y, right? Except that no, the answer is 2y. He can see that the answer is 2y, and that the process of going from 0 to 2y is correct and functions.

But he can't tell why it comes out to 2y. He's missing the rules that tell him what happened and why it works.

Worse, he sees that happening, and somewhere else in the equation 2z becomes 1.5θ as a side effect of the transition, which is the entire reason that this section doesn't just go 0 + 2y, but without any obvious relationship between the two pieces.

Mostly because he doesn't know how mana is shaped and functions, and all of the equations he's trying to figure out are working on mana directly and thus follow its rules.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So, basically, his atrophied core lets him sense magic, and his power lets him put math to that sense, but since neither he nor his powers understand magic, the math is incomplete or imprecise. In your example, showing addition, subtraction, and multiplication for operations that aren't quite the same as those, or else leaving out whatever additional operations balance things out and providing side effects. He's seeing disjointed bits of algebra (probably also calculus, given the usual practical effect of his power in mechanistic prediction) that seem to be shorthand for... something equivalent to a programming language, I suppose, or at least something capable of expressing the concepts of sequence-of-events and cross-reference. But it's a shorthand, and not documented, or else largely out of sight.

Am I understanding it right?
 
Qwertystop said:
Am I understanding it right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In this example, x and y are actually rotations and thus the order is significant. Rotate 1x, then 1y, then -1x. That leads you to the same result as a 2y rotation from the x and y points of view, but because mana as a number of physical dimensions beyond the norm a pile of other things just got shifted as well. Those other things obviously shift differently than just the 2y rotation alone would result in.

Except that Number Man doesn't have any clue that this is a series of rotations, or what the thing being rotated looks like.
 
CmptrWz said:
In this example, x and y are actually rotations and thus the order is significant. Rotate 1x, then 1y, then -1x. That leads you to the same result as a 2y rotation from the x and y points of view, but because mana as a number of physical dimensions beyond the norm a pile of other things just got shifted as well. Those other things obviously shift differently than just the 2y rotation alone would result in.

Except that Number Man doesn't have any clue that this is a series of rotations, or what the thing being rotated looks like.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This makes sense from a mathematical PoV X and Y are used often in HS Algebra and up but also as physical points X-axis, Y-axis, and Z-axis.
 
CmptrWz said:
In this example, x and y are actually rotations and thus the order is significant. Rotate 1x, then 1y, then -1x. That leads you to the same result as a 2y rotation from the x and y points of view, but because mana as a number of physical dimensions beyond the norm a pile of other things just got shifted as well. Those other things obviously shift differently than just the 2y rotation alone would result in.

Except that Number Man doesn't have any clue that this is a series of rotations, or what the thing being rotated looks like.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Does this mean that Number Man is capable of learning to do spells? Provided someone explained Mana and its rules to him.
 
Inv1ctus6243 said:
Does this mean that Number Man is capable of learning to do spells? Provided someone explained Mana and its rules to him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Chances are his Shard could stand in for a Device if he had a mana source to work with, I'd think, yeah.

But please do bear in mind that MGLN magic doesn't require the use of mathematics or devices. It's just ... vastly more effective when you do. (As compared to Earth's ninja clans. Of which Nanoha's family belongs to one without her knowing before becoming a Magical Girl.)
 
Might be worth thinking about those questionnaires, where it asks you to give a value from one to five, one being 'poor', about the quality of your 'experience' (say, after a support phone call). That number can be manipulated using math, but, the sorts of things you can do with it, that produce useful results, are rather different to 'counting numbers'.

Another example might be where numbers are being used as names, to distinguish between several objects... Trying to do math with names just gets messy. :)
 
Ace Dreamer said:
Might be worth thinking about those questionnaires, where it asks you to give a value from one to five, one being 'poor', about the quality of your 'experience' (say, after a support phone call). That number can be manipulated using math, but, the sorts of things you can do with it, that produce useful results, are rather different to 'counting numbers'.

Another example might be where numbers are being used as names, to distinguish between several objects... Trying to do math with names just gets messy. :)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dude. Don't even get me started on the nonsense of Numerology and the Qabbalistic Interpretations of the Talmud.

Math with Names. Man. Not even once.
 
Inv1ctus6243 said:
Does this mean that Number Man is capable of learning to do spells? Provided someone explained Mana and its rules to him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would suspect not with his atrophied core and dearth of environmental Mana. He'd have to have some way to first interact and then contain mana (which could itself take time when starting from a point of only the math), then he could probably manage something like a ritual with the material elements acting like simplified components of a Device for a specific task.

A Device could be seen as a modern computer, created with advanced materials and incredible precision to perform nigh-limitless complex tasks, or even simulate them with other machines/components acting as the output.

Kurt would need to go the long route, experimenting with different objects/materials to observe the effect on the world when mana is used with them. Then using the math he could fashion the equivalent of a crude mechanical device to perform a specific simple task. He'd construct the circles using some medium to conduct/hold mana he obtained (likely from Missy or Taylor), and use material components (D&D, yay!) along with the circle to produce the 'simple,' and probably inflexible, effect. This would be like a Lever or Wheel (maybe even with a brake of some kind!) compared to the Device/Computer analogy.
 
Last edited:
But Number Man would be the one, if any exists, who could figure it out? And through Number Man's shard, Scion could understand mana as well?
 
Inv1ctus6243 said:
But Number Man would be the one, if any exists, who could figure it out? And through Number Man's shard, Scion could understand mana as well?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Understand? Maybe to a degree. Make use of? Principles of observed effects that are compatible could optimize/enhance what he can already do, possibly. Do magic? Likely not.

Everything Entities do, they do by means of Shards. Scion would need to know the 'science and technology' behind magic to even begin developing (potentially) a Shard to make full use of it. Scion would be in the same boat as Kurt, only with more potential materials but less inventiveness/intuition. Even worse if he cannot directly detect mana itself.
 
I think the most interesting thing about Number Man is the fact that his shard believes in magic.

Panacea's Shard looks at Linker Cores through her senses and goes "That's a lie, there's nothing there, you're making that up." (Probably because the Linker Core is connected via one of those dimensions Magic uses that Shards don't)

By contrast Number Man's Shard detects the Magic via his Linker Core and goes "OHHHHH, MATH."
 
Valdimarian said:
I think the most interesting thing about Number Man is the fact that his shard believes in magic.

Panacea's Shard looks at Linker Cores through her senses and goes "That's a lie, there's nothing there, you're making that up." (Probably because the Linker Core is connected via one of those dimensions Magic uses that Shards don't)

By contrast Number Man's Shard detects the Magic via his Linker Core and goes "OHHHHH, MATH."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So far this is the funniest take on the discussion I have read so far. Shows the difference in shard thinking depending on their specialties as well. Wish i could give both insightful and funny have a funny because it is more funny than insightful.
 
So we have found out that Shards can't see Mana because Mana uses different higher dimensions than Shards do. So, if Calculation Engine could spread the ability to detect the math around, which shard would be best to find the higher dimensions it talks about? I imagine something similar to either Sophia or Vista's shard. Sting is more about a specific type of enhanced spacial-dimensional folding, rather than experimenting with higher dimensions. Vista's shard works by expanding or contracting spacial dimensions, and relocating air to keep things working right. Sophia's rotates into other spacial dimensions, in her case specifically lower/negative dimensions, but a less-restricted or less-specialized version of that shard might work.

What does everyone else think?
 
Jordisk said:
So we have found out that Shards can't see Mana because Mana uses different higher dimensions than Shards do. So, if Calculation Engine could spread the ability to detect the math around, which shard would be best to find the higher dimensions it talks about? I imagine something similar to either Sophia or Vista's shard. Sting is more about a specific type of enhanced spacial-dimensional folding, rather than experimenting with higher dimensions. Vista's shard works by expanding or contracting spacial dimensions, and relocating air to keep things working right. Sophia's rotates into other spacial dimensions, in her case specifically lower/negative dimensions, but a less-restricted or less-specialized version of that shard might work.

What does everyone else think?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If linker cores are determined by genetics, i.e. DNA, as opposed to a semi-random mana 'infection' of some suitable beings, then I suspect that you'd need a collaboration between various different shard holders. The holders being the ones to provide the creativity. I don't think that the shards can do it, on their own, 'in the background' - that isn't how Entities acquire new capabilities. If Panacea and Numbers Man worked together they might start to get somewhere.

Alternatively, if Leet's shard gets upset enough, and he gets motivated, he might build something that plugs into a serial port (we don't know if USB caught on, on Earth Bet) that does at least basic mana manipulation. :)

'Step one' tends to be detect whatever it is, before you start on the modelling, higher-dimensional or otherwise... For comparison you might want to look at the history of radiation...
 
Ace Dreamer said:
If linker cores are determined by genetics, i.e. DNA, as opposed to a semi-random mana 'infection' of some suitable beings, then I suspect that you'd need a collaboration between various different shard holders. The holders being the ones to provide the creativity. I don't think that the shards can do it, on their own, 'in the background' - that isn't how Entities acquire new capabilities. If Panacea and Numbers Man worked together they might start to get somewhere.

Alternatively, if Leet's shard gets upset enough, and he gets motivated, he might build something that plugs into a serial port (we don't know if USB caught on, on Earth Bet) that does at least basic mana manipulation. :)

'Step one' tends to be detect whatever it is, before you start on the modelling, higher-dimensional or otherwise... For comparison you might want to look at the history of radiation...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That was my whole thing. Mana is hard to detect in the normal three dimensions, though Number Man's shard is able to see the math of active castings. Following that, they will discover the multi-dimensional nature of it (it is part of the math), so they want shards that can manipulate higher dimensions to FIND the appropriate dimensions. Then you would have a shard designed for observing things, and a few shards for processing data, to see what Mana does when nothing else is going on. Then you start on the spell equations you have parts of, and eventually understand how Mana works.

Now that you have an understanding of Mana and how to detect it, you want to analyse those hosts that can detect it, stumbling across Linker Cores. Then you just need a Shard that functions as a Linker Core, and eventually as a Device, and you have magic-using Entities.

However, this kind of development would A: Be part of the Thinker's domain, where the Warrior's remit is more protecting the Thinker and the Cycle worlds, and B: take more than one 300-year cycle to complete.
 
Well the Thinker is dead, and once Cauldron gets whatever Taylor is calling her team on board Zion won't be too far behind.

Escalation is inevitable...
 
{REDACTED} said:
Well this is a Worm/MGLN crossover escalation is like hardcoded into both of those universes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Okay A) Rad handle! B) you are preaching to the choir.

In terms of her growing power, I'd say we're about on the level of Ichigo Kurosaki going into Hueco Mundo: Her true potential is known, but she's nowhere near her final form.
 
Part of me is now wondering if part of the problem is if Mana is using a non-standard complex asymmetric mixed irrational number base. For, you know, reasons. Hilarious reasons.

You know, I could see parts of this actually being used if there's some sort of multi-phase or non-standard space issue going on, something causing issues.

It's like not even knowing you need an FFT to get your signal composition, but everything's kinda-relativistically distorted at short ranges, and even if you figure that out, there's the issue that the standard fourier transform spits out garbage results since the coordinate frame itself isn't standard. Can you even imagine the headaches if it had 2-spin ellipsoid-otic properties? You get fun results, like, 'The path is shorter if I look at it on my side, as opposed to standing up'.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top