Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Sirrocco]

The tower itself, I'm starting to think, is a dead-end as far as paths go. It's less efficient at turning Cultivators into Core Formation than a good Regional Power Sect or Clan is. The only thing it has going for it is speed, immediacy. Basically, it might be a crutch for a lower-level Sect or Clan to try to match power or survive desperately, but to people who have a true legacy and system going, it's not a good deal at all; it's a dead end in that sense, in the sense that capable factions would not really want it, as it cuts their numbers in half.

Click to shrink...

That's not true. It also has going for it that it produces the resources necessary to make that jump out of nothing. If you had to pour spirit stones into the thing to make it go, then immediacy is all it would have going for it, but instead it's a lottery - high chance of death, but if you win, you get a free ride. Even if our numbers are 10,000-to-1 on raising QC to CF, the way we do that is spending money.

It kills everybody who doesn't succeed it, right? (As well as costing tons of lives from collateral Beast Tides; thus meaning people are pissed at you for not protecting them. Which is a valid complaint on their end. Even if you garrison and set up defenses against the Beast Tides, that still means losing some amount of QC and FB defenders against Beast Tides. So it's not totally free.)

Which means that you not only lose 20,000 Qi Condensation who might've kept working for another century... You ALSO lose 200 Foundation Building Cultivators -- who might've kept working for up to 400 years.

You're not just losing 19,999 Qi Condensation. You're losing 199 Foundation Building experts too. And the centuries of service they could have granted you.

Click to shrink...

If the Beast Tides are a cost, it's totally not worth it, I'll agree. Better then to seal it off and instead take advantage of the good farmland for raising mortals on. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case, though. Beast cores are a resource. If you can throw enough power on the field that the beast tides are giving you more in cores than you're losing in cultivators, then the economic calculus changes pretty significantly. At a micro level, wealth turns into ranking up more cultivators pretty directly. At the macro level, when we have enough of it, wealth lets us make long-term investments with major impact, or survive the hunts better.

/*************/

Basically, the tower and portal between them are an engine for producing cultivation resources at a cost in lives. You pay lives up front at the tower and on the back end in fighting beasts. You gain resources in the form of CF cultivators at the tower and best cores at the portal. Cultivation resources are of nontrivial value in this world. You can also improve the exchange rate. You can't really increase what you get out of the system, but you can fortify the portal (thus reducing the mortality costs there) and adjust who's going into the tower (thus adjusting the value of the lives lost there)

As I have said and continue to say, it's not worth it for us to send in anyone who we would have recruited as legionnaires, because as far as we're concerned, those guys are pretty high-value as QC lives go. Also, we don't want to do anything about it right now because we don't actually have control over the territory, and we have better things to do with our assets than fortify against beast tides. Still, ignoring the fact that it's a huge producer of cultivation resources, more or less ex nihilo, means that you're utterly missing the point of these features. We shouldn't do that.

 

[Simon_Jester]

That's not true. It also has going for it that it produces the resources necessary to make that jump out of nothing. If you had to pour spirit stones into the thing to make it go, then immediacy is all it would have going for it, but instead it's a lottery - high chance of death, but if you win, you get a free ride. Even if our numbers are 10,000-to-1 on raising QC to CF, the way we do that is spending money.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but we also make money by not having 19,999 dead cultivators, because having more cultivators lets us hold more territory and exploit it more efficiently.

So it's not a free ride; there's an opportunity cost. Our ability to continue having our present level of income is predicated both on control of territory and on our ability to maintain the numbers of cultivators (including juniors) that hold and exploit that territory.

As I have said and continue to say, it's not worth it for us to send in anyone who we would have recruited as legionnaires, because as far as we're concerned, those guys are pretty high-value as QC lives go.

Click to shrink...

If we're dealing with someone we wouldn't want as a legionnaire, why do we want to make them a Core Formation Elder? We're talking about people who in all likelihood have no particular loyalty to the clan. From their point of view, they risked their life in this horrifyingly deadly tower to become a superhero; we gave them nothing except a 99.995% chance of death.

Do we actually benefit from that side of the deal?

If not, it comes down to just "being a source of beast cores," but we don't actually seem to have a problem finding more beasts to kill if we really want to; there isn't really a shortage. Certainly not one that's worth roping thousands of sad-sack outsider cultivators in as human sacrifices in hopes of getting a beast surge.

 

[Rakuhn]

Clearly the answer is to sell slots to access the tower to our subordinates or to foreign powers.

We get resources and favors, they get Core Formation cultivators.

 

[Garlak]

I don't want to shovel people into an industrial death-thresher, and subject mortals (and Cultivator guards) to Beast Tides to boot. It's, wrong, to just shove treat people like a number and shove them into a death-lottery and only think about things in terms of a "Are we getting a good economic balance out of this?"

It's hard to articulate that moral point precisely. Because you can obviously make the obvious rhetorical counter that "Well, aren't you treat people like part of an economic machine when you just do basic finances and work out how many Cultivators we have?" and "Well, what about when we go to war?" or "Well, what about when you have to decide whether a group's sacrifice in war or in treasure-hunting or in whatever is worth it to achieve victory or gain a huge advantage or win something or gain a treasure or whatnot?" It still feels different to me.

I guess the difference is the blunt amount of death. Both for the aspirants, and the Beast Tides.And it's blackbox-y nature.

If the Beast Tides are a cost, it's totally not worth it, I'll agree. Better then to seal it off and instead take advantage of the good farmland for raising mortals on. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case, though. Beast cores are a resource. If you can throw enough power on the field that the beast tides are giving you more in cores than you're losing in cultivators, then the economic calculus changes pretty significantly. At a micro level, wealth turns into ranking up more cultivators pretty directly. At the macro level, when we have enough of it, wealth lets us make long-term investments with major impact, or survive the hunts better.

Click to shrink...

That is still coming at the cost of "all the stuff dead Qi Condensation, and dead QC-who-could've-been-FB, aren't making and doing."

As much as I hesitate over a 20,000-deaths-for-1-Core-Formation mystery box, I hesitate even more at the idea of just transforming 20,000 dead into loot. I'd rather just have those people alive instead. Giving up your body for Gravebronze at the end of your life is one thing. Getting sacrificed to fulfill a military objective is also one thing. Making hard or unpleasant decisions is one thing. But if those decisions become easy, become economic policy, then it becomes disturbing.

As I have said and continue to say, it's not worth it for us to send in anyone who we would have recruited as legionnaires, because as far as we're concerned, those guys are pretty high-value as QC lives go. Also, we don't want to do anything about it right now because we don't actually have control over the territory, and we have better things to do with our assets than fortify against beast tides. Still, ignoring the fact that it's a huge producer of cultivation resources, more or less ex nihilo, means that you're utterly missing the point of these features. We shouldn't do that.

Click to shrink...

That's the thing I disagree with though -- I don't think it's a huge producer or benefit at all.

I think that, worldbuilding-wise, this thing exists as one of those "Things that some lesser powers use to try to eke out a bit more power for them, usually at some painful cost in either morals, utility, money, or potential." It's an example of a thing that can be useful to those that don't have the ability to raise Cultivators well. But to a preeminent Clan or Sect, it isn't that useful.

So I actually would be totally and utterly comfortable with completely dismissing the tower, actually.

 

[atrophy]

i think doing it like once a century mainly for the end of lifers isnt a horrible idea ? And i mean like once a century or two . And just one batch at a time aswell .

 

[fictionfan]

Clearly the answer is to sell slots to access the tower to our subordinates or to foreign powers.

We get resources and favors, they get Core Formation cultivators.

Click to shrink...

This does seem like the best use for it. Assuming that we can manage the beast tides. Might even be many loose cultivators that would pay for access. Plenty of people are willing to buy a lottery ticket sure they are the lucky one.

 

[Sirrocco]

If we're dealing with someone we wouldn't want as a legionnaire, why do we want to make them a Core Formation Elder? We're talking about people who in all likelihood have no particular loyalty to the clan. From their point of view, they risked their life in this horrifyingly deadly tower to become a superhero; we gave them nothing except a 99.995% chance of death.

Do we actually benefit from that side of the deal?

If not, it comes down to just "being a source of beast cores," but we don't actually seem to have a problem finding more beasts to kill if we really want to; there isn't really a shortage. Certainly not one that's worth roping thousands of sad-sack outsider cultivators in as human sacrifices in hopes of getting a beast surge.

Click to shrink...

That's why we treat them well - we do things to improve their chances going in (including interviewing the people coming out and seeing if there's any useful advice we can pass along) and we do things to hook them up coming out. (People have noted that they'll be generally lacking in arts. We can provide some reasonable general-purpose arts for them at very low cost to the clan.) We can even offer to hire them and/or provide them with contacts in a variety of other (allied or associated) sects that might wish to hire them, depending on their preferences. These are things we can do very cheaply, and in return we get goodwill from a group of people who are powerful enough that their goodwill matters, and maybe manage to pull one in from time to time and/or strengthen some of our subordinate clans.

I don't want to shovel people into an industrial death-thresher, and subject mortals (and Cultivator guards) to Beast Tides to boot. It's, wrong, to just shove treat people like a number and shove them into a death-lottery and only think about things in terms of a "Are we getting a good economic balance out of this?"

Click to shrink...

I'm not suggesting a plan of "shoveling people in". That would indeed be horrible, it would significantly upset our own people, it would damage our reputation, it would be the unrepentant evil that we are unwilling to make treaty with, and, finally, it would lead to resentment coming out the other side, which is exactly the opposite of what we want. I'm not interested in using anyone who isn't a volunteer, and I wouldn't even want to apply pressure. At most, it would be a matter of making the option known, and then providing assistance along the way.

It's hard to articulate that moral point precisely. Because you can obviously make the obvious rhetorical counter that "Well, aren't you treat people like part of an economic machine when you just do basic finances and work out how many Cultivators we have?" and "Well, what about when we go to war?" or "Well, what about when you have to decide whether a group's sacrifice in war or in treasure-hunting or in whatever is worth it to achieve victory or gain a huge advantage or win something or gain a treasure or whatnot?" It still feels different to me.

I guess the difference is the blunt amount of death. Both for the aspirants, and the Beast Tides.And it's blackbox-y nature.

Click to shrink...

I'm actually not inclined to make the rhetorical point of comparing people to cultivation levels on a balance sheet... but what about people to people? The fact is, balance sheets matter in this world, and they really are measured in lives. Every hundred years, we have votes on how to spend our money, and some of the places that money could go are things that would help more of our clansmen survive the coming purges, and we can never afford them all. We are regularly getting into wars, some of which we don't even start ourselves, and having additional Core Formation cultivators who are either willing to work with us or who, say, have a particular beef with the Jingshen that they're pursuing on their own time would help with those. It would mean that we would not have to pay as much in blood.

I wouldn't intend to do anything with this until we can manage to get the beast tides on farm status, in which case that particular part is effectively a high-intensity form of hunting that we can do from behind emplaced defenses, where the beasts will come to us (thus having significant advantages over standard hunting - as long as we can handle the intensity). Beast tides are currently an inefficient source of horrible death... but they don't have to be. These are beasts coming out in a mass, in a particular nonmoving place, with knowable features, and semi-controllable timing. Those are all major exploitable advantages, and with our focus on arrays and formations, they're advantages that we are particularly good at exploiting. No one else has exploited them yet because no other group in the area has had that kind of power... and if they'd gotten that kind of power, then the Jingshen would have come to take it or the Cannibals to eat it. Still, Beast Cores are an important enough source of cultivation that the Mountain sects run off of them pretty much exclusively.

That is still coming at the cost of "all the stuff dead Qi Condensation, and dead QC-who-could've-been-FB, aren't making and doing."

Click to shrink...

As soon as we're taking in people volunteering from the outside, rather than pushing our own people in there, the "what those QC/FB could have been doing" basically becomes moot. They wouldn't have been doing it on our behalf anyway.

As much as I hesitate over a 20,000-deaths-for-1-Core-Formation mystery box, I hesitate even more at the idea of just transforming 20,000 dead into loot. I'd rather just have those people alive instead. Giving up your body for Gravebronze at the end of your life is one thing. Getting sacrificed to fulfill a military objective is also one thing. Making hard or unpleasant decisions is one thing. But if those decisions become easy, become economic policy, then it becomes disturbing.

Click to shrink...

This world is a horrible place. It is sufficiently horrible that there are people who will voluntarily take that deal of their own free will. Perhaps they saw their village eaten by cannibals or fed to bees or something. Allowing them to take that deal, and easing their way once they do, is not an immoral act, so long as they are aware of the risks and walk into it with their eyes open.

Also, you are making it sound worse than it is. Effectively, if we get this set up right, we're allowing 20,000 QC cultivators to transform themselves into 19,999 dead people and one lucky CF winner, and then having a loot box full of wolverines with nice drop tables pop out of the ground somewhere else as well. It's not that we're grinding down 20,000 people into beast cores or something.

That's the thing I disagree with though -- I don't think it's a huge producer or benefit at all.

Click to shrink...

So here's a point of fact on which we have different impressions. Let's ask. @occipitallobe - are the resources necessary to get a cultivator up to CF meanignfully expensive from the point of view of the clan? How do they compare to the resources necessary to, say, get 20,000 mortals up to, oh, 7th heavenstage? (picking that one to be a solid ways in, and thus likely higher than the average assaulting the tower, but not peak)

Do we have any idea how much the cores one might expect out of a beast tide would compare to that, if once could murder all of the beasts that came out?

I think that, worldbuilding-wise, this thing exists as one of those "Things that some lesser powers use to try to eke out a bit more power for them, usually at some painful cost in either morals, utility, money, or potential." It's an example of a thing that can be useful to those that don't have the ability to raise Cultivators well. But to a preeminent Clan or Sect, it isn't that useful.

So I actually would be totally and utterly comfortable with completely dismissing the tower, actually.

Click to shrink...

I agree with you that that's what this is, and I don't think it's a game-changer, but I do think there's some potential here that might be worth exploiting. I'm seeing a lot of utterly ignoring the actual advantages, and then trying to claim that they are minimal once it's no longer possible to ignore them. I'd like to give this thing an actual, reasonable analysis. It's possible that, after analysis, it'll turn out that it's just not worth it (for whatever reason). I'd bet, for example, that the tower was a lot more popular when there were a bunch of cannibals right over the border. After a bit of examination, it's pretty clear that using our own people isn't worth it, and there may not be enough volunteers. Okay, fine. I assert, though, that there's at least enough possibility here that it's worth fully examining, and we can't do that if those arguing against are pretending that the advantages don't exist, or that certain of the more manageable issues are somehow insurmountable. I'm asking that it be given a fair shake, while taking the moral hazards into account, and then seeing if they can be accounted for. If it is indeed basically useless to us, then the analysis should uncover that. If it is not?

 

[Sparsebeard]

Falconis was responding to Alratan saying "You send them through when they're almost dead of old age." Falconis replied "Well if they're almost dead of old age, then they're just going to die of old age." They were talking about people who're 190 or whatever years old at Qi Condensation. They ain't gonna gain any Cultivation years because they need to break through first. And if they were stuck at 9th Heavenstage till the year 200 approached, they probably aren't breaking through, or at least are not very likely to do so. There's no real reason to send them to the tower -- especially not if it costs Beast Tides -- because I don't think the tower can magically make up for insufficient talent or insufficient time.


(Some people think the Tower transforms people into Beasts and releases them through the Beast Tide portal. Me, I felt a bit uncertain that there are enough people going into the tower to account for all the beasts. I think maybe what's going on is that it might be a redirection of power. Maybe something is holding back Beasts from coming through the portal. And that power of time is instead redirected to the Tower, to let it spend time raising people to Core Formation. i.e. You can either hold back the portal from opening, or you can power the Tower. Or something.)
(Though I guess the dead just pile up before the portal, and the portal opens whenever somebody succeeds to Core Formation, letting out all the previously-failed Cultivators. Still not sure, but.)

Anyway. We got told that "the sort of people that become Core in the tower, tend to have been the ones that would have been able to reach it anyway." That, to me, makes it sound like hurling low-ability people into the tower is a bad move; none of them are going to be able to raise to Core Formation anyway.

The tower itself, I'm starting to think, is a dead-end as far as paths go. It's less efficient at turning Cultivators into Core Formation than a good Regional Power Sect or Clan is. The only thing it has going for it is speed, immediacy. Basically, it might be a crutch for a lower-level Sect or Clan to try to match power or survive desperately, but to people who have a true legacy and system going, it's not a good deal at all; it's a dead end in that sense, in the sense that capable factions would not really want it, as it cuts their numbers in half.

Anyway.

It kills everybody who doesn't succeed it, right? (As well as costing tons of lives from collateral Beast Tides; thus meaning people are pissed at you for not protecting them. Which is a valid complaint on their end. Even if you garrison and set up defenses against the Beast Tides, that still means losing some amount of QC and FB defenders against Beast Tides. So it's not totally free.)

Which means that you not only lose 20,000 Qi Condensation who might've kept working for another century... You ALSO lose 200 Foundation Building Cultivators -- who might've kept working for up to 400 years.

You're not just losing 19,999 Qi Condensation. You're losing 199 Foundation Building experts too. And the centuries of service they could have granted you.

According to this spreadsheet, we have 510,000 Qi Condensation and 38 Elders. I believe it was updated on Turn 10.

The Tower sharply cuts down your long term growth, in exchange for giving you more power now. And tons of death in order to get that.

Click to shrink...

The numbers for turn 11 are :

Mortals	75,700,000
Qi Condensation	594,000
Foundation	7,500
Early Core	30
Mid Core	10
Late Core	6
Great Circle Core	6
Total Core	52 (the spreadsheet says 47 but it's a typo)
Nascent Souls	1

occipitallobe updates it dilligently every turn.

We are far from reaching our max capacity though :

Mortal Capacity	106,000,000
Qi Capacity	1,060,000
Foundation Capacity	10,600
Core Capacity	106
Early Nascent Capacity	1
Mid Nascent Capacity	1

And I'd guess we'll max out Qi condensation much faster than Core Formation, considering a new generation of mortals reach cultivation age every 20 years (probably about 1/3 or 1/4 or the total number of mortals reach cultivation age each turn, of which about 1 in 100 can cultivate although, considering we seem to only gain about 100,000 Qi cultivators each turn so the clan seems to be pretty stringent in their criterias even though we have to account for attrition).

Still, when we reach a million Qi Condensation cultivators and can't grow the numbers anymore, a place like the tower will become very temping indeed for the most ruthless elders...

 

[no.]

I agree with Sparsebeard here. We shouldn't throw our Qi Condensation into the grinder until we have more than we can support. When we hit the cap, we ought to shove a hundred thousand or so in to get five Elders(since we're still way behind in that category). Those'll get replenished in one turn. We do need to set up something to deal with the beast tide though.

 

[Gore17]

I'll point out that Beast Tides seem to occur even without Tower graduation, graduation just triggers one immediately. So fortifying the location to stop them, if we gain the territory, is quite possibly something we'd do anyway.

As fortification and defensive fighting are our specialities, we might be able to do so in a cost-effective manner.

 

[occipitallobe]

Adhoc vote count started by occipitallobe on Jul 5, 2021 at 9:23 AM, finished with 153 posts and 57 votes.

• ---

  43 people have voted

  [X] Blind the Eyes of the Wrathful Watchman

  • Alectai
  • TehChron
  • Resonant
  • Shard
  • Mellowfellow
  • Insane-Not-Crazy
  • Juugo
  • Frvborg
  • The Fourth Monado
  • BlueHelix
  • Godzillaslayer10
  • Bloodalchemy
  • adamashield
  • Aklyon
  • Halliax
  • Ego_Discite
  • dreamdweller
  • Somerandomdude
  • Redikai
  • Catwings
  • Random12345
  • Skyborn.12
  • Anders
  • Marlin
  • Taut_Templar
  • Nyssar
  • No7sHere
  • cheesyme
  • moon-llama
  • aJadeTree
  • Unstorpable
  • nothingtoseehere
  • Garlak
  • ReaderOfFate
  • Sirrocco
  • Litumu
  • Mochinator
  • manamyst
  • jamie96969
  • Simon_Jester

  ... and 3 more.

  27 people have voted

  [X] The Truth of the Two Paths

  • Alectai
  • TehChron
  • Resonant
  • Shard
  • Mellowfellow
  • Insane-Not-Crazy
  • Juugo
  • Frvborg
  • The Fourth Monado
  • BlueHelix
  • Godzillaslayer10
  • Bloodalchemy
  • adamashield
  • Aklyon
  • Halliax
  • Ego_Discite
  • dreamdweller
  • Somerandomdude
  • Redikai
  • Catwings
  • Random12345
  • Catpetter1981
  • TimEd
  • Rakuhn
  • wrecksalot
  • Faraway-R
  • TheCount

  18 people have voted

  [X] The Moment of Despair

  • Nyssar
  • No7sHere
  • cheesyme
  • moon-llama
  • aJadeTree
  • Unstorpable
  • nothingtoseehere
  • Garlak
  • ReaderOfFate
  • Sirrocco
  • Litumu
  • Shaper47
  • no.
  • gale
  • LordEdric
  • Olivebirdy
  • MintyFresh
  • TheCount

  12 people have voted

  [X] Sever the Bright Strands of Fate

  • Catpetter1981
  • TimEd
  • Rakuhn
  • wrecksalot
  • Shaper47
  • no.
  • gale
  • LordEdric
  • Olivebirdy
  • Humbaba
  • fictionfan
  • RebelYell

  4 people have voted

  [X] The Truth of the Two Path

  • Skyborn.12
  • Anders
  • Marlin
  • Taut_Templar

  2 people have voted

  [X] The Beginning

  • will408914
  • RebelYell

 

[occipitallobe]

It came in like a flood.

A massive tide of shadow, overwhelming him, rippling through his being.

Reality quivered under it briefly, and around him time reversed for a few moments, the quill he had written with unwriting the words he had put to paper, tea slipping out of his mouth and restoring itself to a pristine state within the cup he had held not moments before.

Space warped, and the doorway became too large and too small, as it if was unable to figure out what it was supposed to be.

Manuel shuddered.

He felt the power grow. He knew intuitively what it was for, as well.

Denying the Heavens their due in tribulation. Whoever he used it on would find their tribulation changed from devastating lightning to the opposite, something nurturing and empowering them, making it easy for them to step into Nascent Soul. Easier than stepping into Foundation Establishment, for most.

He felt the weight of it press down on him. He felt more real than he had ever felt, more powerful that he had ever been. As if his entire life he had been a reflection in a mirror, but now he had been made whole. He knew that if he stepped outside right now and simply spoke to someone they would pop like a soap bubble, the weight they had in reality nothing before the power flowing through him. He wasn't sure what would happen to the space around him, though. Perhaps it would doom the entirety of the Dawn Fortress.

He wasn't eager to find out.

It was six weeks before he dared leave his room, the warping space slowly subsiding as he let the massive tide of power slowly come fully under his command. Even now it was not obedient, but could be directed, if only to one task.

The power he held demanded to be used. Not by the shadowy force itself. Now tamed, it was happy to sit and stay until unleashed. But...

Raising someone to Nascent Soul. While this demanded careful consideration, if he died before he could use it in some mishap... it did not bear thinking about.

What to do?

[ ] Raise A Nascent Soul Immediately

If you vote for this, choose a subvote below. There are three Great Circle cultivators within the Clan who Manuel believes who both have the mettle to shatter their Core and begin the task of creating their Nascent Soul and who he is assured of in terms of loyalty. His Councillors face constant checks from him, and so have earned his trust. Ordinarily Nascent Souls are whoever is capable of transcending the tribulation - in this case since Manuel is choosing he won't choose anyone outside of his most trusted inner circle.

[ ] Casia Zimisce

Casia understands the incompleteness of her path. Her Dao of Peace is insufficient. On shattering her Core and gaining the powers of a Nascent Soul, she will be able to spend less time directly on administration, but have far greater powers to do so. Her Dao of Peace, however, will allow her to settle rebellions and the like more easily, using it to calm the hearts of vassals and potential Blood Path rebels. She will also be of great use in diplomatic negotiations and will probably seize part of Kleisthenes' portfolio in this case, as her personal negotiating ability will skyrocket. On a day-to-day basis rebellions will be less common, intrigue actions will be harder against us, and Manuel's relatively average diplomacy skills (largely buttressed by his ability to pull secrets out of nowhere and use them as leverage) will be given a large boost as they work in tandem during negotiations.

However, she is unlikely to be the most powerful combat-oriented Nascent Soul, and will suffer a minor penalty due to her lack of ruthlessness.

[ ] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos

Kleisthenes's path was always incomplete. Her Dao is not easily named, but is perhaps understood as one of Sacrifice, or Sacrificial Exchange. Her transformation into a body she hated was to give up one thing to gain another, and her fundamental being revolves around paying in misery for additional power. She is the most suited to Nascent Soul cultivation, and also the most suited to Nascent Soul combat. Her personal pursuit of transformations will allow her to use her Dao of Sacrificial Exchange to give up things to empower herself temporarily, making her quite powerful. However, outside of burning her own personal power for temporary boosts, her Dao offers her no major bonuses on a day-to-day basis.

She is Manuel's favored choice by a substantial margin, both due to nepotism and the fact that he is utterly sure about her loyalty to the Clan and willingness to sacrifice for it beyond any measure of doubt.

[ ] Xie Xinya

Xie Xinya is Manuel's least favored choice, but her incredible growth and cultivation talent makes her hard to ignore.

Her Dao of Circles sees her empowered in many peculiar ways when dealing with those close to her. "Me and my brother against my uncle, my family against my clan, my clan against the world" typifies her worldview, and this allows her to empower her juniors from afar. She can both act easily on those she cares about, and if they reciprocate her feelings, even see through their eyes and empower them halfway across the world to tremendous levels of power - Qi Condensation Xie Family members could be boosted to Core Formation briefly at need, though only one or two at a time.

The Xie Family will find themselves boosted substantially, and in this case Manuel would choose to marry her - not as a political statement but to leverage that particular bond and gain a permanent boost from her Dao of Circles as her husband. Her ability to boost her family makes them immensely better at spying, able to wield powers they don't even possess, and Intrigue focuses by the clan will become much more powerful.
-----

[ ] Wait, Don't Raise One Now

Self-explanatory.

 

[occipitallobe]

24-hour voting moriatorum as this is a fairly major choice. I'll post another threadmark once the vote is opened.

 

[Alectai]

[ ] Raise A Nascent Soul Immediately
-[ ] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos

This is Grace, unasked for and unanticipated, and should be treated as such

Let the Old Man get what he wants, just this once.

That aside though, even putting that aside, with the likes of Jiao running around, the last thing we want is a new Nascent Soul she can flip.

 

[Daemon Hunter]

If Manuel has a favorite, I say we go with that.

 

[DawnOfBoom]

… I have one huge issue with raising Klei.

Her whole thing, currently, would be about sacrifice.

Manuel would see his best friend, one that he choose to raise to his level, give up parts of herself over and over and over again in the name of the Clan.

And while normally this would be a given, for her it could easily turn into a Final Blaze of Glory, in the same way her sister went but even worse.

Not sure what that would do to Old Man Manuel.

 

[Alectai]

… I have one huge issue with raising Klei.

Her whole thing, currently, would be about sacrifice.

Manuel would see his best friend, one that he choose to raise to his level, give up parts of herself over and over and over again in the name of the Clan.

And while normally this would be a given, for her it could easily turn into a Final Blaze of Glory, in the same way her sister went but even worse.

Not sure what that would do to Old Man Manuel.

Click to shrink...

There is No chance that this Tribulation fails. It's literally sent to "Literally give them everything they need to pass as powerfully as possible" due to the Shadow's exploit.

 

[DawnOfBoom]

There is No chance that this Tribulation fails. It's literally sent to "Literally give them everything they need to pass as powerfully as possible" due to the Shadow's exploit.

Click to shrink...

I never said anything about her failing her trib.

I'm saying that as turns pass on, I can easily see Klei jumping into fires, biting a piece of herself for empowerment, and coming back less than she was before.

And Manuel would have first seat into every single change.

As he would be the one that set her on this path.

 

[Mellowfellow]

Kleisthenes doesn't offer any esoteric benefits from her Dao. She's the all-rounder build for Nascent Soul, but also needs to sacrifice herself to gain temporary boosts.

Xie Xinya
+Boost to Clan Intrigue
+Manuel gets personal power boost due to empowerment from Xinya's Dao. This is HUGE.
-Xie Family gets increased prominence.
*Manuel will actually get married.

Casia Zimisce
+Boost to Clan Diplomacy.
+Less internal rebellions/disputes, stronger counterintelligence.
-Seizes parts of Kleisthenes' job/responsibility.
-Worse at Nascent Soul combat.

I favor Casia or Xie Xinya because of their advantages, Kleisthenes is straightforward but also offers the least. I don't want to waste a tribulation boost just for feelings.

I also agree with @DawnOfBoom that seeing Kleisthenes sacrifice herself for her Dao won't be good for Manuel's mental health. Seeing his LAST friend constantly cut herself to pieces.

 

[SCDarkSoul]

Also leaning towards Kleisthenes.

As an overall passive boon to the clan Casia feels nice, but her lack of combat ability would make me nervous. Manuel himself is already not totally suited to personal combat but he is at least mid Nascent and has the years of prep to back it up. The constant worry of straight up combat based threats and possibly losing the new Nascent Soul as fast as we get them would be nerve wracking.

Xie Xinya seems...very useful to be honest. While she would only be empowering a few select people at a time, the ability to rapidly empower somebody from very far away would be a huge advantage strategic advantage. Sudden Core Formation power on demand anywhere a Xie family member iswithout needing to actually spread out Core Formation Elders? Huge. Or another hidden card for Manuel if he suddenly gains a huge power boost in a Nascent Soul level battle? Too bad I hate her nepotism, and don't like how much worse that could get if she's a Nascent Soul as well, and married to Manuel.

Kleisthenes seems less exciting, but very solid. A good Nascent Soul level beatstick. Furthermore if she is "more suited to Nascent Soul cultivation" that sounds promising for prospects of future growth.

 

[Garlak]

Now I know everyone wants the new Nascent Soul now now now, but... Should we consider the other option on the docket? Namely: raise a Nascent Soul later.

What can we do if we choose to hold off?

Are there any ploys or stratagems Manuel can employ? Like the idea of hiding a successful tribulation that we bandied about before? Faking their death, faking a failed tribulation?

If Manuel takes the time to do this rather than going immediately, can he do something like fake getting a Big Wound on both the new Nascent Soul and him as the Dao Protector? So that Jingshen will think that they need to attack ASAP while the two Nascent Souls are weak?

 

[TehChron]

Her whole thing, currently, would be about sacrifice.

Click to shrink...

This is the Golden Devil Clan

The Optimatoi

Self-sacrifice is the very literal culture. From Manuel enduring his pain and despair to lead the clan, to the very literal concept of Gravebronze and the Wills our cultivators leave behind for Juniors to inherit and be guided by.

If you're thinking that the concept of a cultivator living through sacrifice is such a negative thing, I only need direct you to how Kleisthenes twin sister died.

Sacrificing herself for the Clan.

It's a bit too late to try and present that as a negative.

 

[tenchifew]

All things being equal, I think I would vote for Casia, barring very convincing arguments against her.

But I think I agree with @Alectai here. It is an unexpected good grace, and Manuel deserves to do what he wants for once. So I would vote for Kleisthenes currently.

 

[TehChron]

Are there any ploys or stratagems Manuel can employ? Like the idea of hiding a successful tribulation that we bandied about before? Faking their death, faking a failed tribulation?

Click to shrink...

We dont need Ploys

We need brute force that cant be subverted by Jiaos annoyingly potent Acceptance Dao, which has been observed to jump Nascent realms even outside of combat.

Whoever gets raised up is going to be the first target for the Jingshen from the start. And that requires unshakeable loyalty and an ability to at least hold Jiao in check despite the gulf in experience in Nascent Soul level combat.

Or any other treasures she might bring to the table.

 

[Mellowfellow]

If sacrifice is the clan culture, shouldn't Manuel sacrifice his own happiness and satisfaction to pick the most optimal choice for Elder?
That would probably be Xie Xinya. She offers an incredible personal power boost to Manuel, her clan members gets empowered and Clan Intrigue actions gain a boost.

Kleisthenes offers nothing for the Clan except getting temporary power boosts, and being a general all-rounder candidate.