Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Sirrocco]

Caisa: Significant boost to diplomacy, internal stability, and intrigue defense. This would be the pick if we feared Jingshen scheming, as it's a powerful defensive tool against scheming at all levels. Downside is that she's the weakest of the three in direct combat.

Kleisthenes: strongest option in raw combat, best at nascent soul cultivation, but no other boosts. Her downside (to the degree that there is one) is in her tendency to bleed for her art. Unclear how much of an issue this is going to be. Basically, she's a straight-up beat-stick. That's... not a bad thing. Has a secondary benefit in that we're pretty much guaranteed that Kleisthenes won't make it to Nascent Soul any other way. She's already cashed in all of her cultivation cheats.

Xie: Cranks external intrigue, and boosts Manuel's direct effectiveness (which is effectively also an external intrigue boost). Downside is that she is all about the nepotism, and she would leverage this to raise her family above all others. Further, Manuel would be marrying her in spite of not necessarily liking her all that much.

So... one of the big questions is what we, as the clan, need. None of them have any particular ability at strengthening our juniors or other long-term econ engine effects, which means that none of them are actually helpful with the trials. Right now, our immediate threat is the Jingshen, and after that probably the Devil Bees. For the Jingshen, whatever the fight is, it's going to end in diplomacy, so Caisa maybe cranks up the value of the loot box once it's all over, but her specialties don't really help win the fight, because the Jingshen aren't really a threat in any of that. They've been trying to be a diplomacy threat, and apparently failing miserably. Offensive intrigue is as useful as ever, sure, but... I really don't see it being more useful than "we have a bigger beat-stick". The Devil Bee fight is, if anything, even more lopsided. Our ability to project raw power there is going to be pretty critical, and they aren't real big on either intrigue or diplomacy.

Finally, I note... we've had one Nascent for basically the entire game up to this point, and Manuel has, as a result, been the voice of the clan. He's leveraged that from time to time to be utterly, searingly uncompromising on certain points. It's a bit of a risky play, but it's been of value. Of the three of them, Kleisthenes is the one I trust to back him to the hilt.

It's a bit too late to try and present that as a negative.

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Let's not pretend that a cost is not a cost just because it's a common one... and she absolutely takes it (much) further than the rest.

Kleisthenes offers nothing for the Clan except getting temporary power boosts in exchange for sacrificing herself.

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That's simply not true. Her advantages are not subtle or complicated, but "She is the most suited to Nascent Soul cultivation, and also the most suited to Nascent Soul combat." is absolutely a "something" on the "what does she offer for the Clan" scales. "Most guaranteed loyalty" is also not nothing.

 

[Deadly Snark]

All things being equal, I think I would vote for Casia, barring very convincing arguments against her.

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Casia as a Nascent Soul who is pretty bad at combat would be at constant risk of getting ganked. This wouldn't be so bad, but Manuel is also pretty meh in Nascent Soul tier battle, he's saved by his prep and in general, being an old monster. That doesn't apply to Casia.

So all else being equal, a Combat focused 2nd Nascent is better for now. Casia can be the Third if we manage to win and conquer a lot of land.

 

[Prospalz]

If sacrifice is the clan culture, shouldn't Manuel sacrifice his own happiness and satisfaction to pick the most optimal choice for Elder?
That would probably be Xie Xinya. She offers an incredible personal power boost to Manuel, her clan members gets empowered and Clan Intrigue actions gain a boost.

Kleisthenes offers nothing for the Clan except getting temporary power boosts, and being a general all-rounder candidate.

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Temporary advantage can translate into long-term advantages with a good play. Countering Jiao's obnoxious dao is a pretty good play.

 

[TehChron]

If sacrifice is the clan culture, shouldn't Manuel sacrifice his own happiness and satisfaction to pick the most optimal choice for Elder?

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That depends.

Of the other two candidates, both are suboptimal in terms of Nascent soul combat.

Combat we are on an imminent course towards engaging in against at least one peer power.

With said "optimal choice" likely being forced to fight Lady Jiao. She of the mindfuck it took Mid-Nascent Manuel at least three tries to find a way around in relatively low-stakes conditions.

While said Lady Jiao was notably completely green as a Nascent Soul.

It's been two centuries hence.

How will a Dao of Peace and a Dao of Circles with neither ones loyalty unshakeable interact with that, freshly ascended do you think?

 

[tenchifew]

If sacrifice is the clan culture, shouldn't Manuel sacrifice his own happiness and satisfaction to pick the most optimal choice for Elder?
That would probably be Xie Xinya. She offers an incredible personal power boost to Manuel, her clan members gets empowered and Clan Intrigue actions gain a boost.

Kleisthenes offers nothing for the Clan except getting temporary power boosts, and being a general all-rounder candidate.

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Even disregarding all emotional arguments, Kleisthenes is the biggest beat stick at the time when we are all but assured to get into war with Jingshen and Devil Bees. Her being better suited to Nascent cultivation than the other two should also assure that she remains the better beat stick of the three. This is a very significant advantage.
This said, the others also offer unique advantages that may be better or worse, but saying that Kleisthenes does not offer an unique advantage would be flat out wrong.

 

[Mellowfellow]

I don't get where the sudden worry over Jiao's acceptance dao is coming from. From past discussions, the sentiment seemed like she was a pushover, especially if the Clan chose the militaristic path. Manuel managed to find a counter against Jiao's Dao before

Contempt would work for combat, he thought. For diplomacy, it was probably unworkable.

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[Sirrocco]

That depends.

Of the other two candidates, both are suboptimal in terms of Nascent soul combat.

Combat we are on an imminent course towards engaging in against at least one peer power.

With said "optimal choice" likely being forced to fight Lady Jiao. She of the mindfuck it took Mid-Nascent Manuel at least three tries to find a way around in relatively low-stakes conditions.

While said Lady Jiao was notably completely green as a Nascent Soul.

It's been two centuries hence.

How will a Dao of Peace and a Dao of Circles with neither ones loyalty unshakeable interact with that, freshly ascended do you think?

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I think I'm leaning Kleisthenes myself for various reasons, but let's try to be clear-eyed about this. Caisa might well have issues both with the Acceptance thing and with the combat, but Xia isn't particularly worse at combat than other Nascent Souls. It's just that Kliesthenes is combat-specced. Further, I'd expect that Xia's Dao of Circles would offer a fair bit of protection against the Dao of Acceptance. After all, her Dao is all about having a large, loving family who she is fiercely loyal to, and who are fiercely loyal to her in turn. That's both a boost against outside loyalty attacks in general and a particular defense against attacks based on tempting people with the feelings of acceptance and love. If she wants some of that, she can always just go visit the grandkids.

 

[TehChron]

I don't get where the sudden worry over Jiao's acceptance dao is coming from.

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It punches up and affects Old Monsters like Manuel while Jiao was nearly fresh as a Nascent soul.

Thats already a big deal

After all, her Dao is all about having a large, loving family who she is fiercely loyal to, and who are fiercely loyal to her in turn.

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Tsukishima

 

[Deadly Snark]

I don't get where the sudden worry over Jiao's acceptance dao is coming from. From past discussions, the sentiment seemed like she was a pushover, especially if the Clan chose the militaristic path. Manuel managed to find a counter against Jiao's Dao before

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What are you talking about?

The first time Manuel met Jiao, the overwhelming reaction was "Oh thank god we choose the Old Monster PC, anyone younger or less experienced would have fallen for her right there and then." A young Prodigy like Child Eater but for the Golden Devils would be pudding in her hands.

She's absolutely terrifying. Its just that if its a 1v1 between her and Manuel, Manuel wins. But that does not hold true in a Nascent Soul team deathmatch where Jiao can go after someone else.

 

[Sirrocco]

I don't get where the sudden worry over Jiao's acceptance dao is coming from. From past discussions, the sentiment seemed like she was a pushover, especially if the Clan chose the militaristic path. Manuel managed to find a counter against Jiao's Dao before

Click to shrink...

Basically, she's soft in a number of ways. She's likely weak at Nascent Soul physical combat. She's absolutely weak at Nascent Soul soul combat (or at least, she was. It's possible that she's put in effort to fix that in the intervening decades). That softness is feeding into a tremendously powerful diplomacy-specced Dao, though. She's not a pushover. She's hyperspecialized. There's a difference.

Tsukishima

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You're really going to have to put in more than just that if you want to make a coherent argument. All I'm seeing are links to some anime about volleyball, and a character that really doesn't seem particularly pertinent at all to the discussion at hand. I continue to assert that Dao of Circles offers some pretty potent protection against the younger Jiao's shenanigans.

 

[TehChron]

You're really going to have to put in more than just that if you want to make a coherent argument. All I'm seeing are links to some anime about volleyball, and a character that really doesn't seem particularly pertinent at all to the discussion at hand.

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Ah, sorry

Book of the End and its ability to subvert bonds and turning your companions against you.

Even assuming that Xiyue can resist it (already a terrifically big ask in its own right) that doesn't stop Jiao from taking the time to exploit Xiyues own ties to her family by punching down on the non-nascent soul members with impunity

Setting aside that, again, the assumption that Xiyue would be inherently immune to Jiaos Dao when Manuel wasnt is veryyyyyyyyy specious.

 

[Garlak]

Personally, I figured (at the start anyway; after a bit more thought went "Ehh, either Xinya shrugs it off because she sees Jiao as Not Family... or. Or, it goes potentially very badly for us. Hrm.") Xinya's vulnerability would have been not to Jiao's aura, but rather to the fact that she has a huge weakspot in the form of, well, her entire family.

The thing that Xinya has, that the other two don't -- or at least, not to the same level, or not in the same way (their price, if they had one, would be something like "Prosperity and security for the Golden Devils as a whole" or "A peace where the Golden Devils aren't constantly being fucked over". This are good bottom lines.) -- is this: a price. She favors family over Clan. That simple.

So what happens if somebody were ever to divine that, and to take her family hostage against her? Or offer her something that would make her family ascendant? We can't make her value us, Manuel, more than she'd value her family. Because there'd be no love or romance in that marriage, and she'd sense that, so.

I didn't think that Xinya would be very vulnerable to subversion to effects like Jiao's Dao, like Chron does. But instead, I worried about if somebody went after her family, or bribed her with benefits for her family.

I don't think it's necessarily going to get triggered. But. But. If it did? It would be very bad.


As for who I favor... Kleisthenes, I think.

I think the stability will be nice for Manuel -- that is, of having his old friend be with him for many centuries more. Not merely till the end of her Core Formation life. But till the end of their lives in Nascent Soul. (Which admittedly could come in a century! But. No longer will be dying of old age in a few centuries.)

Also, the combat wombat? Not to be underestimated in the least! We need somebody that can scare off Jingshen from initiating a Nascentbowl. We need somebody that can stand up to Old Cannibal and his two Nascent Soul Devil Bees. We need something for when the Great Era/Heroic Era gets really ridiculous, if things get that far.

 

[TimEd]

I continue to assert that Dao of Circles offers some pretty potent protection against the younger Jiao's shenanigans.

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Family Over Clan

means they are vulnerable to specific kinds of intrigue efforts. Like a hyper focused Acceptance Dao convincing you that they are part the family (or the family is accepted into part of her). Or just plain old murderous blackmail.

Also let us not forget that allowing nepotism to rise that high in the Golden Devil Clan ensures that the high cost meritocratic characteristic we payed for in the character creations gets nullified.

Meritocracy and clan loyalty is one of our most defining feature culture wise. Nepotism not only removes the first part, it also slowly destroys the second bit as well, since nepotism invites jelousy and scorn (and arrogant young master/mistresses).

 

[TehChron]

Basically, dealing with Jingshen requires someone who can either reliably check or knock out Jiao in an engagement despite being a freshly ascended Nascent Soul, with bonus points if doing so allows Yao'er to go complete ham on the Jingshens holdings or engage Jingshens own third Nascent soul should one arise in time when things come to a head.

Because the thing is that Old Jingshen has spent a long time prepping for this fight. And has done so while successfully concealing his Dao from Manuel.

We need every advantage we can get going into the Mid-Nascent Bowl, and part of that means not needing to expend a lot of resources accounting for potential weaknesses in our other Nascent Soul relevant fights.

If we get three Nascent Souls tied down while our Armies successfully raid and tear apart Jingshen infrastructure like they did during Turn 10, then there's nothing theyll be able to do to stop us and survive.

Theyd have to sue for a peace that's beneficial to us at the very very least. Even if they're not driven to a war to the knife, which is honestly fine by me. We just need to eliminate the Jingshen as a threat and become Desert Hegemon. If that takes the form of reducing them to a Minor Power one step above vassalization to us, then I say that's more or less good enough for our purposes for the short term.

Long term it's less so, because they would absolutely try and coordinate with Old Cannibal to screw us over if given half a chance.

 

[No7sHere]

Yeah, what we need right now is someone who'll be good in a straight fight and who we can rely on not to cause disunity in the clan. That she is also well suited to Nascent Soul cultivation is just a bonus.

 

[Sirrocco]

Ah, sorry

Book of the End and its ability to subvert bonds and turning your companions against you.

Even assuming that Xiyue can resist it (already a terrifically big ask in its own right) that doesn't stop Jiao from taking the time to exploit Xiyues own ties to her family by punching down on the non-nascent soul members with impunity

Setting aside that, again, the assumption that Xiyue would be inherently immune to Jiaos Dao when Manuel wasnt is veryyyyyyyyy specious.

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Jiao's ability is nothing like Book of the End, to the degree that the fact that you make the comparison undermines your argument. Book of the End involves editing memories. Jiao's ability is simple and, if anything, pure. It simply offers someone who accepts you for what you are, and does not judge. It can be very tempting, and very soothing. The desire to be welcomed and accepted and loved is strong. Now, I'm not saying that Xie Xinya would be immune... but I think she has better natural defenses against it than Manuel. After all, Manuel's whole schtick is being the old monster with blood on his hands that does what must be done for his clan. He has very few friends, and keeps a great many secrets. For someone like that, the temptation of open, uncritical acceptance is particularly powerful. Now, he's a highly capable scheming Nascent Soul, and was thus able to come up with tactics to compensate, but as far as natural defenses go, his best natural defense was cynicism, and as that was merely a personality trait rather than part of his Dao, it wasn't able to stand against the assault.

As for punching down... well, she could do that, but punching down is always a risk for Nascent Souls, since it means that you're actually out there doing things, and that exposes you to counterattack from the nascent Souls out there that are playing Threat in Being. Also, it would require her to get enough information on the inner workings of the clan to know that much about her Dao. That may not seem like much, but... well, we have Manuel. As a clan, that inherently makes us ridiculously good at acquiring secrets. We know that the Jingshen are trying to raise a third Nascent Soul... and we have no idea who this person is.

Family Over Clan

means they are vulnerable to specific kinds of intrigue efforts. Like a hyper focused Acceptance Dao convincing you that they are part the family (or the family is accepted into part of her). Or just plain old murderous blackmail.

Also let us not forget that allowing nepotism to rise that high in the Golden Devil Clan ensures that the high cost meritocratic characteristic we payed for in the character creations gets nullified.

Meritocracy and clan loyalty is one of our most defining feature culture wise. Nepotism not only removes the first part, it also slowly destroys the second bit as well, since nepotism invites jelousy and scorn (and arrogant young master/mistresses).

Click to shrink...

Again, here, those sorts of attacks are going to require knowing quite a lot about Xie Xinya that we can be pretty sure they don't currently know... and "acceptance dao gets enough power to convince you that they're part of your inner circle" is effectively saying "you have fallen to an acceptance dao attack" I mean yes, that would be bad... but the Dao of Circles in that case would just be making an abject loss a bit more abject. That's really not the place where we should be trying to put our defenses.

As for the meritocratic thing... well, yes. That's true. I even agree that it's a compelling argument. I prefer Kleisthenes, and I intend to vote for her, and that's one of my reasons. I just dislike specious arguments in general. The fact that a given option is not my preferred option does not mean that I wish it to be misrepresented.

Though you are wrong on one point. We never bought "meritocratic" in chargen. The closes we came was the 2-point "obedient", and I wouldn't call even that "high-cost", given the other stuff we were throwing around. Again, I dislike seeing positions misrepresented.

 

[TehChron]

Jiao's ability is nothing like Book of the End, to the degree that the fact that you make the comparison undermines your argument. Book of the End involves editing memories

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Not really, Book of the Ends greater versatility aside, they both fundamentally exploit very similar things in terms of preying upon the psyche of their targets both directly in terms of affecting someones perception of their relation to the ability user and indirectly by preying upon the bonds a potential victim holds with other victims of its ability.

Though as you've already admitted a lack of familiarity with the ability, trying to argue the minutae of the differences is a waste of both your time and mine.

 

[Sirrocco]

Not really, Book of the Ends greater versatility aside, they both fundamentally exploit very similar things in terms of preying upon the psyche of their targets both directly in terms of affecting someones perception of their relation to the ability user and indirectly by preying upon the bonds a potential victim holds with other victims of its ability.

Though as you've already admitted a lack of familiarity with the ability, trying to argue the minutae of the differences is a waste of both your time and mine.

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I've not watched the show, but it's not that hard to look up. It isn't that Book of the End is more versatile. It's that they work on entirely different principles. Book of the End injects the wielder into someone's past/memories, and creates a relationship from nothing. That sort of an attack would be ridiculously powerful against a Dao of Circles. Dao of Acceptance, by contrast....

Acceptance. A Dao of Acceptance made no sense for advancement - acceptance of the world meant not changing it, or so Manuel thought, but he wasn't privy to Jiao's Dao. Acceptance allowed her to truly offer a love of sorts to everyone, accepting them for who they were, offering no judgement, no hatred. She still might kill him if she thought it worth the risk and benefits, but she wouldn't hate him. Now... to gamble and reveal his successful probe, or to hold it in reserve for later?

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She looked at him, and smiled. His heart jumped, and he felt a sense of kinship, a sense of closeness he had never felt with any other person before in such a short time. Manuel's Nascent Soul shook its head in sheer awe. Such a natural attack - he would have to ensure he shepherded her personally out of the Clan to avoid anyone being suborned. Likely he'd need to demote a few guards after this, at the very least.

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She looked up at him, eyelashes fluttering. Manuel felt a moment's pity for her. She was young, for a Nascent Soul, and her Dao clearly gave her certain advantages. When she didn't rely on it entirely, her flirting attempts were amateurish and poor. She had probably never bothered to develop her skills properly, her Dao filling in too much of the work for her. Shortcuts were useful, but Manuel had never used them. Hard work took longer, but the results were reliable.

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The rest of the meeting was pleasant, Manuel offering to walk Jiao out, his heart rejoicing at the thought of spending a few more minutes with her. Maneuvering around each guard, each susceptible Clansman, sending silent orders to have nobody else interact with her. It was a truly excellent attack. As he left, she blew him a kiss, again - a terrible attempt at flirting that left his heart cold. Then again, she had never faced a Nascent Soul, no doubt, as Old Jingshen was her father, who no doubt loved her anyway.

As her caravan moved on, he returned to closed-door cultivation. The pain resumed, and with each searing moment he focused on the rising feelings for young Lady Jiao, tearing them out of his heart as he tore his Soul away from his body. A few months of this and the feelings would be gone. The pain was terrible, and the feeling of abandonment, of worthlessness perhaps even worse. He wanted to weep, to die, to rush after her and beg for her forgiveness. He did none of these things, silently enduring the pain.

Yes, he had to admit. It was a truly excellent attack.

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It's an emotional attack. It artificially creates feelings of kinship and closeness, but that's "a sense of closeness he had never felt with any other person before in such a short time"... but that' not going to be enough to quickly gain status as family, in the way that the Book of the End could do pretty much by fiat.

As far as preying upon the bonds they have with others... well, it's like I said before. Yes, that is a technique she could use... but first she'd have to know what Xinya's Dao was (and it's not nearly so obvious a Dao from the outside as Jiao's) and then he'd have to start directly suborning individual family members... and that's the kind of thing you can get caught at, and potentially punished badly for. The Jingshen have.. not had a particularly good record in getting stuff past us.

 

[TehChron]

It's an emotional attack. It artificially creates feelings of kinship and closeness, but that's "a sense of closeness he had never felt with any other person before in such a short time"... but that' not going to be enough to quickly gain status as family, in the way that the Book of the End could do pretty much by fiat.

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That's the Dao being used against Manuel when he holds both a Realm advantage and under the most casual circumstances possible to not justify blowback.

We've never seen Jiaos Dao of Acceptance turned on to full blast. Basing its limits off its casual usage punching up far more effectively than it has any right to is just...

Bizarre.

Your assumption is reliant on the conclusion that what we've seen of it is it's hard limits, but my own threat assessment is based on the dangers of its first principles should they scale up where they could be effective.

I dont want to risk Jiao being genderbent Dominic Toretto.

 

[Mochinator]

[ ] Kleisthenes Sarantapechos

Kleisthenes's path was always incomplete. Her Dao is not easily named, but is perhaps understood as one of Sacrifice, or Sacrificial Exchange. Her transformation into a body she hated was to give up one thing to gain another, and her fundamental being revolves around paying in misery for additional power. She is the most suited to Nascent Soul cultivation, and also the most suited to Nascent Soul combat. Her personal pursuit of transformations will allow her to use her Dao of Sacrificial Exchange to give up things to empower herself temporarily, making her quite powerful. However, outside of burning her own personal power for temporary boosts, her Dao offers her no major bonuses on a day-to-day basis.

She is Manuel's favored choice by a substantial margin, both due to nepotism and the fact that he is utterly sure about her loyalty to the Clan and willingness to sacrifice for it beyond any measure of doubt.

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My choice without a doubt. My reasoning? SHIP SHIP SHIP SHIP SHIP

More seriously, i'm more invested in her as a Char since she been with us since quest start and we actually saw her sacrifices in quest. The new councilors are just names to me, with the only one resounding slightly being our Mad Scientist purely due to her insanity

Also, i like to draw attention to:

Her personal pursuit of transformations will allow her to use her Dao of Sacrificial Exchange to give up things to empower herself temporarily, making her quite powerful. However, outside of burning her own personal power for temporary boosts, her Dao offers her no major bonuses on a day-to-day basis.

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My take on this is that her combat effectiveness is more then what a NS of our level should be with the tradeoff being no constant boost on a Clan level like the other 2. I mean that's a price i'm willing to pay since what we need is a BIG STICK

Also, in terms of future power-boost. A Dao build around sacrifice and exchanging seems to be something that we can help with via finding stuff or ways that she could trade for POWER.

EDIT: ICwise, wow it's like i'm watching my GS' future

 

[Sirrocco]

That's the Dao being used against Manuel when he holds both a Realm advantage and under the most casual circumstances possible to not justify blowback.

We've never seen Jiaos Dao of Acceptance turned on to full blast. Basing its limits off its casual usage punching up far more effectively than it has any right to is just...

Bizarre.

Your assumption is reliant on the conclusion that what we've seen of it is it's hard limits, but my own threat assessment is based on the dangers of its first principles should they scale up where they could be effective.

I dont want to risk Jiao being genderbent Dominic Toretto.

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I assume that it will function by the same mechanics, that it won't be "I accept you, and therefore can rewrite your past history". Also, why do you assume that the attack on Manuel wasn't full blast? Would she have a reason to hold back, there?

Anyway, it's not a matter of "how strong is this?" She's had 200 years to refine herself. As you point out, she wouldn't be punching up. She's taken a bit of damage to her dao in the interim, but yes, we can assume that her attack will be stronger if and when our new nascent needs to face it. The question is "which of these people is likely to have better defenses against this?

Kleisthenes has the most proven loyalty to the sect. She also has a dao of sacrifice, which will probably help purge lingering effects after the fact. Great. Xinya didn't get the "you're the most loyal" gold star, but that's because she has a profound loyalty to her family. It's not what Manuel wants, per se, but it'll do just fine for the specific case of helping to protect against this particular attack. Also, yes, a rich web of existing bonds does help insulate you against someone trying to insinuate themselves into your affections. They might manage to get the same distance in past your shell, but there's more competition.

...and I'm not going to argue with you based on pop culture references any more. I reject the implied assertion that knowing how other writers have treated other media somehow gives you any particular insight as to what's happening here, and it makes it too easy for you to just throw stuff out there without having to back it up.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Also, yes, a rich web of existing bonds does help insulate you against someone trying to insinuate themselves into your affections. They might manage to get the same distance in past your shell, but there's more competition.

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Its never stopped anyone in the history of the human race from throwing it all aside for absolute love and acceptance tho.

 

[TehChron]

I assume that it will function by the same mechanics, that it won't be "I accept you, and therefore can rewrite your past history". Also, why do you assume that the attack on Manuel wasn't full blast? Would she have a reason to hold back, there?

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Potential retaliation?

Like what Manuel did when he threatened her to keep off of Rina right after she broke through to Single Pillar?

Anyway, it's not a matter of "how strong is this?" She's had 200 years to refine herself. As you point out, she wouldn't be punching up. She's taken a bit of damage to her dao in the interim, but yes, we can assume that her attack will be stronger if and when our new nascent needs to face it. The question is "which of these people is likely to have better defenses against this?

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Which I've asserted from the start?

Kleisthenes has the most proven loyalty to the sect. She also has a dao of sacrifice, which will probably help purge lingering effects after the fact. Great. Xinya didn't get the "you're the most loyal" gold star, but that's because she has a profound loyalty to her family. It's not what Manuel wants, per se, but it'll do just fine for the specific case of helping to protect against this particular attack. Also, yes, a rich web of existing bonds does help insulate you against someone trying to insinuate themselves into your affections. They might manage to get the same distance in past your shell, but there's more competition.

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I brought up Tsukishima and his Book of the End as an example of precisely why such an attack vector as Jiaos Dao enables can subvert that assumption.

 

[TimEd]

Though you are wrong on one point. We never bought "meritocratic" in chargen. The closes we came was the 2-point "obedient", and I wouldn't call even that "high-cost", given the other stuff we were throwing around

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Here's an option we could have taken for 2 shinies.

Ice Volcano Spear - A magical spear you obtained in a Secret Realm. While it can only be thrown once, it allows you to defeat any cultivator in Nascent Soul in a single blow. It would even let you escape from a Spirit Severing cultivator - if only for a few moments

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[Sirrocco]

Its never stopped anyone in the history of the human race from throwing it all aside for absolute love and acceptance tho.

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You're going to have to give a lot more support for that one than just a bald assertion.

Potential retaliation?

Like what Manuel did when he threatened her to keep off of Rina right after she broke through to Single Pillar?

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She made enough of an attack that if he'd been inclined to retaliate, he would have had reason. Going that far and no further didn't make a lot of sense.

I brought up Tsukishima and his Book of the End as an example of precisely why such an attack vector as Jiaos Dao enables can subvert that assumption.

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...except that it's not the same kind of attack. There's a difference in kind between the two. These are Daos, not psychic powers. Making your Dao more powerful doesn't just give you extra out-of-theme abilities, and a Dao based around open unjudgmental acceptance isn't going to give you memory alteration.

Heck - from a somewhat later bit, we know that Jiao is particularly bad at the kind of "memory alteration attack" Nascent Combat that Manuel brought against her. She has a powerful attack, but it is different in kind. Just because her Dao can be used in one kind of mental attack doesn't mean that it opens up mental attacks in general.