Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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I mean look at the leading plan? Manuel is also assigned to hunting an enemy.
Then the leading plan is also not legitimate.
Altar Lord describes him as a one in an eternity genius who paved the path towards freedom. Even if this is rose-eyed, that's still what he thinks his Lord wanted. Freedom from Heaven's slavery is Altar Lord's goal, and there's reason to believe it was Soup Chef's goal too. He's been described as a really smart, driven guy who had plans and plots for everything he did. I highly doubt he killed gods for the fun of it.
My point is that murdering the turtle child almost certainly did strike a blow against heaven's slavery. After all, the Third Sea has no World Fusion cultivators in it. As far as avoiding heaven's slavery, that's a big deal. Killing the Turtle would have struck a greater blow. It's entirely possible, for example, that killing the Great Turtle would have effectively destroyed Heaven entirely, and led to the level of qi in the world degrading to the point that cultivation was no longer meaningful. Is that a thing that we, as the Golden Devils, want? If it is not, we have to consider that the Altar Lord's ideas of things he wants (because they oppose Heaven) and our ideas of what we want are not quite the same.
 
Also, I'll admit that the reasoning behind the plan is Insanely meta and functionally impossible to make IC without handwaving. That kind of metagaming makes my skin crawl. "I had a vision that he was on his last legs and so decided to change my foreign policy" is super skeevy from my perspective.
That's not metagaming. Occi said that what we see in interludes are what was divined by Manuel. This information is literally given to us by the Shadow of Heaven, and is IC, not OOC.
I asked on the Discord for confirmation that Interludes are IC information and recieved it.
Occipitallobe said:
Assume if the information isn't known directly, Manuel is capable of inferring sufficient portions of it to use it as part of his decision-making process. I expect the thread to plan based on the updates provided, so the assumption is all updates provided are to some degree IC knowledge.
For those of you who want to give the Altar Lord a tiny bit more leeway, I would recommend "Destasia Unleashed" over "Altar Lord's Last Chance". We need a little more SPS favor to get away with destroying Jingshen, so even if we don't go all in on appeasing them this turn, we should do it somewhat. That one buys more social capital without going all-in on bullying Altar Lord.
I disagree, naturally. Destasia Unleashed still sends our absolute best defensive units to defend against the bees, freeing up the Righteous Path from their distraction. The Hong Xuan Irregulars are useful for RP, but they're not strategically impactful like the Array Masters are. The latter require a Nascent Soul to break, the former can be beaten with fellow Core. Second, Altar Lord doesn't care if the north front breaks, so it's not much of a problem to him if we send Hong Xuan in to fight there. It's a third distraction, I believe. He requires the Maze and Bee fronts to be opened up properly, he could not care less about the Demon Altar front.

Now, @Katana1515, if you made a Destasia Unleashed version that didn't quell the Bee front, I'd vote for it in a heartbeat.

Would my fellow Altar Lord's Last Chance voters join in? If you would, please leave a Like.
Then the leading plan is also not legitimate.

My point is that murdering the turtle child almost certainly did strike a blow against heaven's slavery. After all, the Third Sea has no World Fusion cultivators in it. As far as avoiding heaven's slavery, that's a big deal. Killing the Turtle would have struck a greater blow. It's entirely possible, for example, that killing the Great Turtle would have effectively destroyed Heaven entirely, and led to the level of qi in the world degrading to the point that cultivation was no longer meaningful. Is that a thing that we, as the Golden Devils, want? If it is not, we have to consider that the Altar Lord's ideas of things he wants (because they oppose Heaven) and our ideas of what we want are not quite the same.
I don't think that's it. There are other worlds, probably other turtles. The SCA came from one of them with huge amounts of power. While Soup Chef is said to have desired Freedom over the SCA's Justice(?), I don't think he'd be happy with the ebd result of "Awesome! This turtle world is dying now, we're all free! Which will end the moment a cultivator from another world comes in. Well, that's not a problem, we'll all die from starvation in this Qi-less desert first!"

Sorry that this sounds snide, I'm just tickled pink at the idea of an optimistic chipper Soup Chef. "Hurray, we're free!"
 
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I don't think that's it. There are other worlds, probably other turtles. The SCA came from one of them with huge amounts of power. While Soup Chef is said to have desired Freedom over the SCA's Justice(?), I don't think he'd be happy with the ebd result of "Awesome! This turtle world is dying now, we're all free! Which will end the moment a cultivator from another world comes in. Well, that's not a problem, we'll all die from starvation in this Qi-less desert first!"

Sorry that this sounds snide, I'm just tickled pink at the idea of an optimistic chipper Soup Chef. "Hurray, we're free!"
Sure, but we don't know how it would have worked. We know that he set out to kill the Great Turtle (or at least declared that he was doing so). It's pretty clear that doing that would have done bad, bad things to the overall flows of Qi. It's possible that Soup Chef had some technique to stabilize it at just "very low", rather than "life-consuming desert"... and as it is, being in the Desert means that Spirit Severing elders basically have to spend almost their full attention on cultivating just to stand still. If the qi levels were lower, it would make things pretty bad for Nascent Soul, too. Eventually the place gets dead enough that no one who can actually make the trip has any desire to arrive.

Understand, I'm not saying "it totally happened this way". I'm saying "This is plausible, and we don't know". We do know that Altar Lord is prepared to accept quite a lot of collateral damage in order to strike back at the Heavens... and there's no real reason to think that his "final plan" won't have even more of that, just built right in.
 
"Join me, and I'll tell you everything. If I could kill you and seize the Will Opposing, make no mistake. I would do so. But... I suspect it would only come to someone like you, who believed in it for its own sake, though. Not someone like me. I need you desperately. Our cause needs you desperately."
The truth was simple enough. Altar Lord desired his aid, and needed Heaven's Shadow for any possible victory. This made sense, for how could one oppose Heaven without some similar power of your own? He had not truly known whether Heaven's Shadow was something he had connected to or whether he had somehow fashioned it, but his belief had been in the former. This had been twofold confirmation.
So there's a couple arguments I could make here.

One, Altar Lord isn't going to throw away one of the best tools against Heaven there are. He was furious at Kinslaughterer for killing Wei An, another tool.

Two, Altar Lord isn't killing the Heavenly Turtle right now. He's just forestalling our future doom and opening up a chance to overthrow Heaven. This is the best chance at affecting Heaven in any way that we've seen throughout the quest, including the million-word omake bonuses. We don't need to make a decision on whether or not killing the sun is a good idea yet, this is just putting up shade. The first step, the foundation.

Three, even if we did require our end goals to be identical, the eventual goal of killing the Heavenly Turtle isn't the final goal either. Soup Chef created Blood Path, he'd consume its power and use that for his goal of freedom from the Heavens. A qi desert isn't the end state, it's a stepping stone. The interim dry phase might be bad for us, but we're already doomed. Once Blood Path is gone, we're next. The End. Ancap Heaven isn't as good as a Just Heaven, but it's a helluvalot better than Heaven That Hates Us in Particular. This isn't a choice between our current, not bad, situation and Ancap Heaven, this is a choice between eventual doom and not being doomed.

If it were a choice between qi desert, we all fall a step or two in cultivation but Soup Chef is out there fighting for Ancap Heaven, that's better than 'We all die in ten thousand years,' which is what we're currently at.

"Let me explain. Heaven is repairing itself, rebuilding the regulations that govern this world. At this rate in another ten or twenty thousand years there won't be a Blood Path. Shortly after that, it will destroy the only forces remaining in all the Seas capable of evading fate. The world will once again be properly regulated, and you will be helpless. Shortly after that, your people will be no more."
There is only one chance for my Lord, Manuel Komnenos. Only one chance for me, only one chance for all your people. Join with me and seize it. I can't guarantee victory, but together we'll have a chance. Nothing more than that. If we win, you can end Blood Path yourself if you'd like. Rule the whole Third Sea as you please. Kill every criminal like me, for all that matters. All I ask is that you overthrow Heaven before it crushes us under its heel."
Forstalling this inevitable end is Altar Lord's goal. Getting us out of this trap.

This isn't Altar Lord tearing up the world so that someone somewhere will have a better chance against the Heavens, though he'd do that in a heartbeat. This isn't an attack against the Heavenly Turtle. This is survival. He's trying to make it so Heaven's wound doesn't close so that we're not all purged in ten thousand years.

He's almost there. All we need to do is not stop him.
 
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Welp, it looks like the worst case scenario came true for the RP and Noble Knowledge really made out like bandits. Doubled their territory size by claiming all the old Flower & Arrow lands, even taking a chunk off Ma Clan.

Didn't even commit too heavily on Altar Lord's side, so they reaped profit for less effort. IIRC, they spent like 3 turns just selling their poisons after breaking the Poison Crushing Siege, and helping out for 1 turn after Flowers & Arrows Sect was wiped out. After the failed siege on Gemstone Justice in Year 180, they went back to turtling and expanding their maze.
Hopefully this means the Plains will be too exhausted and unable to respond to the Jingshen war, with all their hands tied doing overtime on the Poison-Crushing Siege.
As it stands, we simply hope to try and encircle their spread to the north, to prevent them from seizing all the old Arrow and Flower lands, otherwise even if we win this war the cost will be more than the Plains can truly bear.


Also @occipitallobe, what happens if we pick Hong Xuan Division without sending our own legions to help the Righteous Powers? I'm assuming that's a bad idea since it leaves the Hong Xuan alone to interact with the RP?
 
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Looking at the new map, Noble Knowledge really made out like bandits, didn't they? Doubled their territory size without committing too heavily on Altar Lord's side so they reaped profit for less effort.
IIRC, they spent like 60 years just selling their poisons after breaking the Poison Crushing Siege, and helping out for one turn after Flowers & Arrows Sect was wiped out. After the failed siege on Gemstone Justice in Year 180, they went back to turtling and expanding their maze lol.

Also @occipitallobe, what happens if we pick Hong Xuan Division without sending our own legions to help the Righteous Powers? I'm assuming that's a bad idea since it leaves the Hong Xuan alone to interact with the RP?

The Hong Xuan will accompany us either way. If we don't send them to the Great Battlefield we can use them in the (exceptionally likely) Jingshen war.
 
So no reason NOT to send the array masters or we will need to fight a poisonous jungle on top of whatever AL wants to do. He pretty clearly got his distraction.
 
So no reason NOT to send the array masters or we will need to fight a poisonous jungle on top of whatever AL wants to do. He pretty clearly got his distraction.
It looks like the Maze distraction was a great success. He also wants the Bees to be successful, and Hu Ai was willing to go help them out. They're doing pretty well, they've injured both local Nascents and they have four Nascents of their own. The red lines on the map say they're doing pretty well, they've taken a good chunk out of Yu and Chuan.

I'd still prefer to boost Altar Lord's odds by not sending our array masters against the Bees, but it does seem to be going pretty well for him.
 
The Jingshen Clan - Core Lands
Grand Elder, this report comes as requested. To be disseminated among the various Elders as the latest intelligence we possess on the Jingshen Clan's core territories.

Here is a map.

The Jingshen Clan are, of course, our perennial rivals, providing much of our income as we levy tariffs on the trade running along the Scorpion Road. Their territories are unimaginably rich, and it is not at all unrealistic to say that the income of the Jingshen Clan's core lands is perhaps between two-thirds and three-quarters of the entire wealth of the Desert. If we were unable to extract a large and substantial portion of their income through tariffs, we would be no match for them at all.

We must begin by discussing the unusual geography of the Jingshen. The blackened areas on the map are extensions of the Qi-Draining Desert, though not entirely. Rather than simply draining Qi, these pieces of desert appear to drain Qi into the local Spirit Stone veins. These veins are rich and nearly inexhaustible, and the wealth that proceeds from them is immense. It is possible to raid through this desert with sufficiently quick forces, as I did a few decades ago. However, moving standard Legions through them to besiege the Jingshen is another story entirely.

However, there is a corollary. The Jingshen core lands in their entirety (excluding the mines) are not merely poor, they are beyond poor. Spirit Beasts almost never arise, Spirit Herbs cannot be grown, and even alchemy tends to fail due to the peculiarity of the Qi flows. It is rare for a pill above Qi Condensation to be forged in Jingshen lands. Likewise, this phenomena makes it virtually impossible to forge powerful weapons enhanced by Qi, and most mortals cannot even eke out an existence here.

The Jingshen perhaps could have more properly colonised lands to the south and used them to mitigate some of their weaknesses, but the perennial existence of the Battle Blood Cannibal Sect destroyed several of their attempts. Jingshen Junjie, the Clan's Grand Elder, lost an arm during the last attempt of the Jingshen to establish a colony-city in the south to be used to grow herbs and forge pills. Since then, there has been precious little interest in the idea. His recent regrowth of the arm perhaps might see him look south, but this is doubtful while the Optimatoi remain a threat. Their new lands have been virtually left untouched, and with what we know about their recent attempts to raise Nascent Souls this has likely been put aside while they focus on that core aim.

So, looking at the Jingshen lands, there are two sets of interesting things. Firstly, I will discuss their social makeup.

The Jingshen have five sub-families, in truth, each of which have their own families and the like within them.

Firstly are the Core Family, or the True Jingshen as they name themselves. These are the descendents of Jingshen Junjie, as well as descendants from his father and his grandfather. Lineal descendants of Junjie's grandfather are Jingshen of the Third Rank, lineal descendents of his father are Jingshen of the Second Rank, and those who are descended from him directly are Jingshen of the First Rank, otherwise known as Noble Children. All three Ranks are however Core Jingshen, and reside in two places.

True Son Peak is a massive Spirit Stone mine, the only one to not be surrounded by Qi-Draining Desert. It is a rich mine, yielding some excellent Spirit Stones. Here live all the True Jingshen who have begun cultivating. On reaching the Fifth Heavenstage of Qi Condensation they are permitted to live here, using it as a base as they aim to increase their cultivation.

Heavenly Beauty Palace is a place of concubinage. Old Jingshen possesses perhaps thirty or forty thousand concubines, and possesses some art that makes him far more fertile. His children lack the natural potential of a true Nascent Soul child, however, but it is not uncommon for him to have three or four hundred children in a year. There was a single year where he had almost two thousand children, a figure that defies belief. I suspect it is related to his art, but I cannot say how.

Any mortal children of his are raised here, and live out their lives here unless they are able to cultivate. It is a fortress, one more concerned with infiltration than with conquest, and is the avenue of attack I personally think is most productive.

There are then the four sub-families. Each descends from Junjie's great-grandfather, who had four sons who managed to reach Core Formation, and one who reached Nascent Soul. The Nascent Soul was granted dominance over the Jingshen Clan in its entirety, and the other four were given new names, and sent to occupy the four next greatest Spirit Stone mines. The four families of the Outer Clan are descended from those four Core Formation sons. Any powerful cultivators of the Outer Clan are married into the Core Jingshen without fail, tying the Outer Clan to the True Jingshen by blood with every generation.

The Jingshen Bei are the most martial of the Jingshen, and provide nearly half of the forces for the Three Forts. Their mine is the poorest, but they supply the sturdiest warriors. The one Outer Clan elder willing to shatter his core from our knowledge comes from here. They are considered the highest-ranking family of the Outer Clan.

The Jingshen Dong are miners all, with the richest of the Outer Clan mines. They are more insular, and rarely leave their territory. Their wealth has them considered the second-highest ranking of the Outer Clan.

The Jingshen Nan are raiders, tasked with the perpetual subjugation of the Heavenly Bandits and Grand Scorpion Sect. From the Jingshen Nan stem most of the worst of the Jingshen - imperial, sneering, and without consideration for the rights of others. They never slaughter mortals, but destroying a well or ruining a great many farms to prevent a city from growing is within their remit. They are looked down upon somewhat, but their willingness to poison and kill means they are considered the third-ranked Outer Clan family.

The Jingshen Xi mine, but due to being considered the lowest-ranking of the Outer clans as they are traders. Any Jingshen seen heading into the Great Battlefield to trade Spirit Stones for goods are almost surely Jingshen Xi. They are looked down upon, and are the most conciliatory and diplomatic of the Jingshen Outer Clan families.

Cloudy Jade City is a minor city, but one of the largest not explicitly owned by one of the Clan branches. It has grown rapidly, and serves as a place where many Servant Elders live as they are able to play various Jingshen off against one another. Many Servant Elders and Servant Cultivators live here - Servants are those without sufficient Jingshen blood (those with only one-eighth Jingshen blood are largely considered to be non-Jingshen and beneath the true Jingshen). They are fewer in number than the Jingshen by far, and are usually ill-treated.

The Three Forts are next.

Yangshen Fort is the first line of defense against us. It boasts a single Spirit Cannon, capable of firing at groups of cultivators and obliterating Foundation Establishment cultivators in a single hit. Even Core Formation elders can be badly wounded by it.

Haoshen Fort is the second line of defense, and hosts six long-range Spirit Cannons, each capable of burning Spirit Stones en masse to fire on enemies from afar. It would be incredibly difficult to besiege, and would either need to be taken by storm, or we would be unable to advance further into Jingshen lands.

Wangshen Fort is the former residence of Lady Jiao, who used to live there during her service as a Core Formation Elder. Wangshen Fort holds the Great Spirit Cannon, a powerful device capable of interfering in Nascent Soul level battles. If it is powered sufficiently it can strike with Early Nascent Soul power, an equal to our formation of Elders while it sustains its supplies.

Lastly is the Underworld Spirit Palace. Perhaps half to two thirds of all Jingshen Spirit Stones come from here, and all True Jingshen who reach Foundation Establishment live here. It is a dangerous place, the fluctations of Qi enough to sometimes form into bizarre phenomena that kill Qi Condensation cultivators outright and cripple those in Foundation Establishment. Nine out of ten Nascent-grade (or Supreme-grade) Spirit Stones are mined here, and we do not know the true depths of its defenses. This is where the Jingshen nobility live, as well as Jingshen Junjie, playing games for power above as they send miners down below. Besieging it will be a true test of the Clan, and in truth, attempting to slay a Nascent Soul ensconced in its depths is a fight I do not think we care to pick.

For my own analysis, Grand Elder, I would think a strike on the Heavenly Beauty Palace is the likeliest to enrage Junjie to engage you. The True Son Peak is more fortified and would take concerted Nascent action - or a goodly number of Legions - to take. Likewise, the Four Families live within the Qi-Draining areas, and would be incredibly difficult to besiege. My personal aims for any war would be an siege on Yangshen, taking as many forts up the Scorpion Road as we can, with a second strike on the Heavenly Beauty Palace. Ultimately we should need to lure the enemy out, and the best way to do this in my opinion would be to take those areas outside of the Qi-Draining Desert, and depending on the results of any Nascent battles, negotiate with the Outer Clan as necessary.

- Sheng Yu, Elder of War
 
I'm liking Sheng Yu's strategy and my initial thoughts for Nascent deployment are as follows: Having Kleisthenes and Yao go up the Scorpion Road makes sense with their goals of taking out the candidates a priority target who is likely within one. Manuel coming with our second Force up the south to target the Harem and threaten true peak will likely force a response where we can strike
 
Don't forget that Junji won't fight without Jiao nearby though.
I think it would be better to have them be the spearhead and Manuel following them, drawing away Old Jingshen when he shows himself.
Then, the other two hopefully can beat Jiao or sick a will on her to keep her occupied.
 
Don't forget that Junji won't fight without Jiao nearby though.
I think it would be better to have them be the spearhead and Manuel following them, drawing away Old Jingshen when he shows himself.
Then, the other two hopefully can beat Jiao or sick a will on her to keep her occupied.
Alternatively we commit to an unexpected thrust through the South moving in force Manuel & Yao visible and Kleisthenes behind to take the Palace quickly and then the Peak. However strong it is I doubt it was intended to hold up to two Nascents together. The Triumph with the Bandits means the speed should take them off guard and that forces Junjie to come out and face us unless he wants us to bypass two of the border forts entirely
Edit: Remember the Wills are bound to the Dawn Fortress
 
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Wow okay, Jingshen is a busy guy.

If anyone wants to try doing the math, the Jingshen have 3/4 or 2/3s of the wealth of the desert, spread across one rich mine, one 'poorest' mine, one 'richest of the Outer Clan' mine, two normal mines, and the Underworld Spirit Palace, which supplies 1/2-2/3 of all Jingshen Spirit Stones. For comparison, our Earth's Bounty mine gives us 5 Wealth per turn.
 
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Here's what I'm thinking from looking at the map:

1) Plan Shell Game.
Klei and the legions dig in outside Yangshen, while Yao musters bandits and attacks Heavenly Beauty Palace, carrying talismans with Manuel's aura, which is something Junjie knows about.

We play on their arrogance and bloodline philosophy to make them think Manuel would never abandon his true-blooded legions, that Yao is being shamelessly opportunistic. Junjie and Jiao come out to gang up on her, allowing Manuel, who isn't far behind, to pop in and spear them.

2) Plan Air-drop fake-out.
We send Yao to sneak towards Wangshen and then have Manuel, Klei and anyone else who is viable use Two-Headed Eagle Formation to follow.

We make them think that we are playing the tactical game, trying to quickly take Wangshen to make the other two forts in-between surrender. The Jingshen Nascents will scramble to defend, thinking that the Cannon affords them a fair shot, but Manuel spears them.

Also, it looks like reinforcements from Magic Oak are not imminent, with so much desert between them.
 
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This looks like it's going to be a long, grueling battle. We thought it would be take hardpoint after hardpoint, but it's worse than that. We're going to have to contend with qi drain. That kills Qi Condensation within minutes. Is that something our Array Masters could help with, or are those areas simply for Core Cultivation and over?

Judging by the look of things, this isn't going to be finished in a single turn.

Edit: We're very likely going to need to seige them. Set up fortifications along the roads, across the parts of the desert that aren't fatal to our lower levels. We're going to need to set up qi bubbles next to their fortified mines within the draining desert order to get anywhere. I really think this invasion will go a lot smoother if we recall our legions and Array Masters.
 
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Man, attacking the core lands seem sooo risky of a long confrontation, while taking the south and the vassals seem so relatively easy...

In my opinion, if we can't kill Old Jingshen, we strongly risk having to stop the war before we make any real gains. I'd much rather aim for the relatively poorer south and / or a heist on the tribulation treasures... And once we reduced the threat of the Jingshen, concentrate on the Bees' lands.
 
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Judging by the look of things, this isn't going to be finished in a single turn.
Their power and administrative structure looks so top-heavy that if we spear Junjie, the rest might surrended and accept vassalage.
In my opinion, if we can't kill Old Jingshen, we strongly risk having to stop the war before we make any real gains.
If he turtles in the Spirit Palace where the Jingshen Nascent Wills are most likely hidden then the entire rest of the land is free game for Manuel to poke, picking the elites of the defenders off one by one as they can't hide from the spear.

Am I really misreading the power of the spear so heavily? It looked like an instant-win kind of treasure, not "just" another advantage among a pile of others.
 
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