And they ONLY die in the Singularities and are alive anywhere else in the timeline since it's the only way the timeline can work at all. That's the point. Nobody is denying that people DIE when they are killed, the issue is how it tries to say that they stay dead outside the Singularity and that all it takes is a cheap patchjob to cover up the chronological inconsistencies. It doesn't work like that.
Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]
- Thread starter James D. Fawkes
- Start date
- Crossover
Listen mate, if it made any bloody sense it wouldn't be Magic.
Even magic makes sense, it just doesn't follow the standard rules of physics. I say rules instead of laws, since with magic, you can break them a lot easier than laws. Handwaving drives me up a wall, since it's an excuse not to think about something interesting and potentially important.
Windborne
Devourer of Stories
- Location
- Oregon
Except that historical weight is a key measurement in the Nasuverse and in particular the Fate timelines. It literally determines how powerful a Servant is and even if someone ends up on the Throne of Heroes. The vast majority of humanity lacks such weight to the point of non existence.
Take for example Annette Hebert. She would hold more historical weight by simply being Taylor's mother than say the guy who works the checkout line at a rural grocery store. She affected trillions of lives through the simple fact she lived and died than that guy who maybe impacted at most 30,000 people in his entire life.
We see people get erased from existence in Extra and Grand Order regularly. Sometimes they are remembered like Patxi, but other times they are completely removed from existence memory and all, like the Seraphix crew after the CCC event, which is terrifying.
That said as others have stated it's ultimately not too big a factor beyond how it affects Taylor and the rest of Chaldea when they learn the truth of the matter. How that's handled here is ultimately up to @James D. Fawkes, I merely wanted to point out that it does make narrative sense and it served a significant purpose beyond just making the story more depressing, even if it's ultimately not addressed by the player. We don't see the broad impact of Part 1 really in Grand Order, but it could be interesting to see that History doesn't line up anymore outside Chaldea and it's records about things like who signed the Declaration of Independence.
It could, and we could have easily seen it in action if they sent someone to investigate Fuyuki. Except we won't in canon since everyone is freaking out how they're missing a year of memories while the only one that could potentially explain said "we went and saved the world" or something stupid like that.
So like you said it's ultimately up to James how he want it handled.
So again, please let him do as he wants and save the tomato flinging for after he start actually touching them in the story.
That still doesn't explain or account for the simple fact that people result in ripples which effect each other. You can't just substitute someone else and say they'd be just as good as someone else, because they won't BE the person they're replacing. Like, I get that it adds 'stakes' to what Chaldeas is doing, but it's essentially worthless because whatever world they come back to literally won't be the same world anymore by virtue of temporal drift if the lore were really accurate. Like, the world of Fate and the Nasu-verse at large is basically one massive plot-hole of self-contradiction. For Rule of Cool, that's fine, but for a cohesive plot with stakes that can be taken seriously? It's a disaster waiting to happen. Like, if I were willing to treat this stuff seriously, I'd have to say that I headcanon that all of reality within the Nasu-verse are breaking down and each installment is subtly pointing out that reality is growing more and more unstable within it's own universe, because it's the only way all of Nasu's plot holes and contradicting lore and theories make any kind of sense. Like, Prisma Ilya is legitimately the most stable of the Nasu-verse realities, just due to how it seems to keep itself internally consistent the best among them all.
It just doesn't work like that. Like, Gilgamesh's 'historical weight' is functionally non-existent in truth because he was the titular character of a fragmented story of a long-extinct kingdom that basically nobody remembered until VERY recently in human history; like, his only claim to fame is being the oldest 'human hero,' and the technical first. By all rights, he should be one of the weakest heroes due to just how little known he is for the same reason that Cu Chulain isn't as powerful as Hercules despite having a similar legend and achieving similarly amazing feats, he's just not well-known enough. Most people have no idea who he is, and the idea that all other heroes are just echoes or replicates of his legend is... nonsensical. There is no evidence Uruk ever even met any other Kingdoms, or was remembered by them, so any stories of heroes that came after him wouldn't have been influenced by him at all, really. Unless your a history or mythology buff, most people would have no idea who Gilgamesh is without Fate bringing him to the public eye, and the occasional reference in fantasy stories that use him as a character or plot-point.
- Pronouns
- HIM
Gilgamesh was instrumental do in the end of the age of gods
maybe he is important because of that
maybe he is important because of that
Fate can't really decide what makes a Hero stronger than another Hero. It seems to be some combination of location they're currently in, how strong they were while alive (probably the biggest factor), how old their legend is, and maybe how well known they are. But that last factor may be commented on, but doesn't actually seem to ever make a tangible difference from what I can tell. Like, Cu Chullain for example. Not nearly as well known as Hercules, and weaker than Hercules. But if he was better known... then what? Would he just be faster and stronger? How much of his strength comes from when he was alive and how much from how well known he is?
Honestly, age of their legend seems to be a bigger impact than the scope of their fame, and by that metric, as one of the first recorded Heroes, Gilgamesh would be extremely powerful.
Honestly, age of their legend seems to be a bigger impact than the scope of their fame, and by that metric, as one of the first recorded Heroes, Gilgamesh would be extremely powerful.
But that's not in anyway mentioned or acknowledged by the legends, from what I recall, so it still doesn't make much sense.
They still have to be REMEMBERED, and their fame is a heavy contributor to their power; it's how Vlad the Impaler is so much more powerful in Romania, particularly so close to the site of his reign, while he's reduced to a blood-thirsty vampire, or vampiric madman, ANYWHERE else in the world. Gilgamesh was essentially forgotten until the late 19th century, and never really entered the public eye at all for anyone who wasn't a serious history or mythology buff. Heck, without Fate helping, he'd STILL be a footnote in history, and utterly forgotten about! It doesn't matter what deeds you committed if nobody remembered them, and HOW you are remembered plays a huge role in how Heroic Spirits manifest, both in terms of abilities and their personalities. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Gilgamesh's power (and arrogance) is purely due to the deluded mentality of Magi, who most likely make up the largest possible bulk of those who remember the jackass at all.
Honestly, Fate's thing of 'older equals better' always annoyed me. Like, HOW does it correlate? Even that bullshit about there being more 'Mystery' in the past is bullshit because... that's not how it works! Just because you don't know the hard limits of your body doesn't mean they don't exist, and even a basic examination using modern methods on anything from the past would instantly destroy any and all 'Mysteries' they had by its own logic and rules. The absolute closest thing the series could get to 'older being better' making sense would be fossils, and the conditions that create THOSE are another matter entirely. And for those old mages in the past, they still had to study and learn how to make all their magical stuff, they couldn't just fly by the seat of their pants and use 'Mystery' to get away with it, since their studies would give them a bigger understanding of the actual limits of their resources. It's just... it's a confusing mess. If someone went out and rewrote Fate's so-called 'rules' into something genuinely workable and NOT self-contradicting, I would give it my ringing endorsement to continue.
That's the regional buff that Servants get. The reason he was especially powerful in F/A is because he literally has a skill/NP that when he's on Romanian Soil, he gets way stronger. He actually could be summoned elsewhere not as a vampire, he just wouldn't get that buff and would be way weaker.
You know, I hate to pull the "magic" card... but it's magic. In the Fate verse, humans were more powerful because they had more conceptual weight and Mystery in general was stronger. This is one of the core premises of Fate. You are trying to apply science to something so inherently un-scientific, that the emergence of science actually hastens the weakening of Mystery.
TimeDiver
Herald of Dis Lev
- Location
- In-between the parallel worlds...
@CapMorgan5569, you make very cogent points about the (although internally consistent) frequently headbanger-inducing underlying conceits of the Nasuverse's metaphysical laws, but you need to acknowledge one aspect that stands out above all others:
In the Nasuverse, with very few exceptions, age is directly correlated with Mystery™, and Mystery™ trumps (nearly) all other sources of power, even if one Mystery™ is FAR more destructive than another, due to the sheer bullshit that is Conceptual Weight™.
Case-in-point: Zeus, the strongest of the Aletheia (sp?) (were the pantheon to survive their destruction at the hands of the White Titan in 12000 B.C. or so) could conceivably destroy entire star systems, if given the motivation to do so...
Yet compared to Rhongomyniad as wielded by the Fae version of Morgan, anything that Zeus throws around (or sets up as a defense) will be eclipsed by said Fae-created Mystery, due to the latter having vastly superior conceptual weight.
In the Nasuverse, with very few exceptions, age is directly correlated with Mystery™, and Mystery™ trumps (nearly) all other sources of power, even if one Mystery™ is FAR more destructive than another, due to the sheer bullshit that is Conceptual Weight™.
Case-in-point: Zeus, the strongest of the Aletheia (sp?) (were the pantheon to survive their destruction at the hands of the White Titan in 12000 B.C. or so) could conceivably destroy entire star systems, if given the motivation to do so...
Yet compared to Rhongomyniad as wielded by the Fae version of Morgan, anything that Zeus throws around (or sets up as a defense) will be eclipsed by said Fae-created Mystery, due to the latter having vastly superior conceptual weight.
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@TimeDiver I get that... I just hate that THAT is how Nasu decided to go about things, because of how headache-inducing it makes writing crossovers with Fate, as any and every law that Fate works on either steamrolls over, or gets steamrolled BY, the laws of whatever setting it's transplanted in, just due to sheer incompatibility. I genuinely believe Nasu just shoved in the crap about 'Mystery' to force everything to make sense (it still doesn't, but it at least has some kind of reasoning behind it). And he still managed to bungle who knows how many myths and legends...
Even the series itself fervently denies that the magic they use is actually magic. Like, I can understand conceptual weight, but how it's applied is arbitrary and purely to employ 'rule of cool.' And also "Magic is the one field of science that science rejects."
Just because the rules magic operates under are different than the laws of physics doesn't mean they don't follow rules or laws at all. It's one of the reasons I first started enjoying Fate, since it used that model, as Magi are basically scientists in every way when you boil it down to the bare basics, and there is an internal basis and reasoning behind magic... and then they started throwing in stuff to justify any and all uses of 'rule of cool.'
Yet Magecraft, a term and premise I wholeheartedly despise, is what's used instead of magic. Like, by Fate's weird logic, "Magic" has to be something that science can never imitate or accomplish, whereas everything that the Magi use is described as Magecraft and therefore replicable by Science by it's own internal logic...
Even the series itself fervently denies that the magic they use is actually magic. Like, I can understand conceptual weight, but how it's applied is arbitrary and purely to employ 'rule of cool.' And also "Magic is the one field of science that science rejects."
Just because the rules magic operates under are different than the laws of physics doesn't mean they don't follow rules or laws at all. It's one of the reasons I first started enjoying Fate, since it used that model, as Magi are basically scientists in every way when you boil it down to the bare basics, and there is an internal basis and reasoning behind magic... and then they started throwing in stuff to justify any and all uses of 'rule of cool.'
I think one of the problems the you could argue Fate has is that it's a soft magic system masquerading at times as a hard magic system. While magecraft itself is supposedly a hard(ish) magic system, the metaphysical/supernatural aspects of the Fate verse are basically the archtype of a soft magic system. And if you try to paint all parts of the Fate-verse with that surface-level hard magic system brush, you're going to get problems.
Understandable, I just hate settings that try and have their cake and eat it too. It forces people into three camps basically; those who want to enjoy it but hate how it plays games with the rules and lore, those who over-invest and hyper-defend the series no matter how confusing or contradictory it gets, and those who just... don't care and somehow manage to enjoy it by never thinking too deeply about it. I hate how it makes those into separate groups that HAVE to be distinct from each other. Like, for people who enjoy making crossover fics, Fate is the ultimate nightmare, since it treats soft magic as equivalent to hard magic, and you either have to render all but the most basic of Fate stuff as useless or severely nerfed, or make all of Fate arbitrarily OP, when putting Fate's mess into another setting. Bringing something or someone else in is just as bad, since it precludes the inclusion of other magic systems, unless they bring their rules with them. Like, if Fate was going to be a soft magic system at it's core, it never should have tried disguising itself as hard magic to begin with.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
S
And honestly, the problems with crossing Fate (or any Type-Moon universe) over with other works have more to do with various Fandoms than the work itself. Like, one of Type-Moon's more aggravating themes is the characters consistently insisting that certain rules exist when they demonstrably do not. It's terrible when you are trying to figure out what's actually possible in Type-Moon, but it means any crossover author can basically throw out whatever they want.
eh. OP-ness isn't just a Fate problem.
And honestly, the problems with crossing Fate (or any Type-Moon universe) over with other works have more to do with various Fandoms than the work itself. Like, one of Type-Moon's more aggravating themes is the characters consistently insisting that certain rules exist when they demonstrably do not. It's terrible when you are trying to figure out what's actually possible in Type-Moon, but it means any crossover author can basically throw out whatever they want.
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
Okay, once again, there's the Typemoon General thread for this sort of discussion. Can we please not derail the thread on things like this?
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Sorry. You're right.
- Location
- Philadelphia
To go back to the story, but also still on the subject of Servants being bullshit, I do have to partially agree with it being kind of bullshit that Jeanne Alter's last goons were so effortlessly crushed. Like Sanson sure, he's one of the many Servants who are so thoroughly mediocre they're carried almost entirely by the class container just giving them some bullshit, but Chevalier D'Eon is a whole different kind of bullshit. A-ranked strength and luck, b-ranked endurance and agility, as well as Eye of the Mind, while I'm not saying it's impossible for Arash to beat them one-on-one without the element of surprise, I feel like it shouldn't be inconsequential.
I don't remember when we're suppose to fight him in canon. In this story i just thought he got butterflied away or taken off screen, like how Lance-zerker got done in off screen when it should have taken a ridiculous amount of effort with him. It could potentially be explained away as him just not having enough tool quality to stand up to Barda.
Though in all honesty i kind of forgot D'Eon appear in this Singularity.
Now someone remind me if OP ever said anything in regards to Liz and Kiyohime.
I think it's important to note that it doesn't seem like James is going to put a fight onscreen just because it happened in canon. Meaningless if possibly flashy fights don't really serve a purpose to write and spend words on. Unless the issue is how much it was glossed over? What do you think would be a better way of handling it?
James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
Arash didn't fight both. Emiya handled one while Arash handled the other.
I get that D'Eon isn't a pushover, but Arash is actually pretty good, too. I forget where it was mentioned, but he did go mano-a-mano with...I think a Saber Servant using nothing but an arrow as a dagger. He's also competent enough as an Archer to target and hit Mordred's joints for disabling blows.
As for Lancelot... Yeah, Lancelot is kind of in this weird position. They're all in a weird position, because canonically, these Servants are defeated with Mash alone or the help of Mozart, Marie, or a weakened, crippled Siegfried (in other words, basically no help at all). Lancelot should absolutely be a terror on the battlefield...but he also lacks access to any of the weapons that would make him half as horrifying as he is in Zero. No Gilgamesh flinging Noble Phantasms for him to steal, no Uzis for him to dual wield, no jet fighters for him to ride or swipe the rotary cannon off of. He's also up against Bradamante, whose Noble Phantasm includes a stun effect, which leaves him open for a crucial moment if he manages to survive the initial attack.
Also, stats are meaningless. No, really, stats are absolutely meaningless. The one time they ever meant anything at all was in FSN, and even then, it was usually one specific stat at one specific moment, such as Saber's Luck when Cu used GB or Herk's ridiculous Strength stat whenever he needed to be a physically dominant presence. Stats have been absolutely meaningless as a measure of how easily one Servant might overpower another since then, or else Gawain would have shat on everyone in Camelot even more than he already did, Nightlessness or not. B+ STR is the same as Herk. If that even mattered, he would have been batting Gramps around like a ping pong ball, because B+ is still almost double A-Rank.
With Nightlessness, he should be able to solo basically everyone else, simultaneously. Numeral at its height is enough that he should be able to counter an Excaliblast with a single fucking punch, just based on pure attack power. Numeral makes Gawain into literal Saitama, and I am 100% dead serious.
Have I said yet that stats are meaningless until the narrative needs them to actually do something?
I'm not trying to come down hard on anyone out there, because this bothers the piss out of me, too, but that's just how it's been in Fate these days.
I get that D'Eon isn't a pushover, but Arash is actually pretty good, too. I forget where it was mentioned, but he did go mano-a-mano with...I think a Saber Servant using nothing but an arrow as a dagger. He's also competent enough as an Archer to target and hit Mordred's joints for disabling blows.
As for Lancelot... Yeah, Lancelot is kind of in this weird position. They're all in a weird position, because canonically, these Servants are defeated with Mash alone or the help of Mozart, Marie, or a weakened, crippled Siegfried (in other words, basically no help at all). Lancelot should absolutely be a terror on the battlefield...but he also lacks access to any of the weapons that would make him half as horrifying as he is in Zero. No Gilgamesh flinging Noble Phantasms for him to steal, no Uzis for him to dual wield, no jet fighters for him to ride or swipe the rotary cannon off of. He's also up against Bradamante, whose Noble Phantasm includes a stun effect, which leaves him open for a crucial moment if he manages to survive the initial attack.
Also, stats are meaningless. No, really, stats are absolutely meaningless. The one time they ever meant anything at all was in FSN, and even then, it was usually one specific stat at one specific moment, such as Saber's Luck when Cu used GB or Herk's ridiculous Strength stat whenever he needed to be a physically dominant presence. Stats have been absolutely meaningless as a measure of how easily one Servant might overpower another since then, or else Gawain would have shat on everyone in Camelot even more than he already did, Nightlessness or not. B+ STR is the same as Herk. If that even mattered, he would have been batting Gramps around like a ping pong ball, because B+ is still almost double A-Rank.
With Nightlessness, he should be able to solo basically everyone else, simultaneously. Numeral at its height is enough that he should be able to counter an Excaliblast with a single fucking punch, just based on pure attack power. Numeral makes Gawain into literal Saitama, and I am 100% dead serious.
Have I said yet that stats are meaningless until the narrative needs them to actually do something?
I'm not trying to come down hard on anyone out there, because this bothers the piss out of me, too, but that's just how it's been in Fate these days.
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DeclanDSI
Touhou 「 」 Youkai of 「Akasha」
- Location
- the Boundaries betwixt Fact and Fiction
- Pronouns
- ???
Just blame all narrative convenience on the Counter Force. It's all you need to make a Nasuverse self consistent.
Give up on thinking about keeping characters within their limits. Emiya Shirou says fuck that, and that's all he needs, so as a role model of human persistence, that's all he and everyone else needs to know about stats and limits within the Nasuverse.
Fuck stats and fuck limits, the Heroic Spirits and Protagonists have surpassed Common Sense and have achieved the ability to say fuck you to stats.
To me, the only stat that really mattered is Endurance. It doesn't matter how hard you can hit or how fast you can hit or how lucky you are, if the other guy can take it all and keep walking then everything else didn't matter. Take Spartacus in F/A. He has to virtually blow himself up to be taken down. Well, Endurance and Mana. Magical nuke is a thing sadly...
Of course that's also assuming they have adequate magic supply to keep chucking anyway.
Still, OP has spoken, so from now on we should just ignore stats unless it's narratively important. I really don't want to fight a Gawain as described by James. i had enough trauma in the Sixth... Saint Quartz is the strongest \(T^T)/
Heroic Spirits are not compatible with Common Sense in the first place. Heroes are not compatible with Common Sense, since if they are they wouldn't be Heroes.
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Summer Bones
Just here for Godzilla.
- Location
- Usa
With enough grinding anyone can solo a mini boss.
SilverShadows
Under autumn skies
- Location
- US
While I generally agree that stats only really matter when the writer specifically wants them to, I'd argue they're more taken as general guidelines than hard numbers or being completely pointless. The examples given are kinda... wrong though? Herc has A+ strength. Nightless is just for the sake of having Numeral of the Saint always active. But Numeral of the Saint was explicitly countered by the sandstorm ...for some reason... leaving it as B+ vs B. Which is double B yes, but only briefly. Otherwise their relevant stats are basically equal. Gawain v Gramps (and Gawain in general) is kinda a terrible example for Parameters being nonsense since it's one of the rare times it IS taken into account. Because "his numbers are too high we can't beat him like this" is what Numeral of the Saint IS at its core.
A better example would be Saber Alter (D rank agility) vs Medusa (A+ rank agility) which taken mathematically would just be "Medusa stabs her in the eye before she can react" but instead is just "Medusa's vaguely faster and dodges a lot, barely". The difference still matters, just not nearly as much as the numbers say they should.
And Numeral of the Saint would allow Gawain to barely survive an Excaliblast like he did Rhongominiad, but he definitely wouldn't overwhelm it with a punch. He isn't Herc or Seigfried who explicitly negate damage below a threshold. His arm would explode if he tried.
TL;DR The problem isn't that Parameters don't matter, it's that Nasu tried to add hard numbers to them rather than keeping them vague.